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War criminal Tony Blair to be given most senior knighthood in new year honours list

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  • Registered Users Posts: 31,086 ✭✭✭✭ Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Could say the same about most European countries to be fair. The problem is the use first-past-the-post which will generally result in the same two-horse-race every time.

    Do NOT ask me how I define the terms "man", "woman", "male" or "female" when you reply to this post. You know the answer and it's probably irrelevant to the discussion :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭ Harryd225


    It's hilarious the titles they give each other but you know what's even more funny, bottom of the barrel working class English folk looking up to these spoiled royal brats as if they are some sort of gods, it's really pathetic and sad to be honest as the upper class in England generally view the working class as peasants.

    Even worse during the riots of Northern Ireland in 2021 Street rioters from a deprived area, with strong disadvantages in housing, employment, education and social life, halted throwing petrol bombs at police and bus drivers out of respect for a man from the highest echelons of European royalty.

    How would anyone explain that?

    Is that simply the incoherence of loyalism writ large or is this sort of behaviour ingrained in British society?

    It is quite a difficult notion to grasp.



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's an overhang from a bygone era of a class system that they've just retained because it was never challenged properly.

    I think in a way the British monarchy was quite clever in protecting its relevance and longevity by giving the plebs, and particularly those who might have challenged it little tidbits of pomp.

    So some industry leader, political figure, trade unionist, loud mouth artist or wouldbe social stirrer upper, who might have say been calling for reform of the monarchy in the 19th century instead gets given some honoirific title and Mr Miggins suddenly becomes the Lord Blitherington and all of a sudden is "in" but not really "in" either. You can only be born in (or possibly married but only if from the right stock and you'll always be a commoner. See treatment of Meghan Markel and several others. See closing ranks around and protection of Prince Andrew etc)

    A clever way of keeping the plebs on side, keeping politics benign towards the monarchy and the class system and everyone chasing the tassles of pomp.

    It's like they bring them in, but just not too far. Keep them at a safe distance, playing court at some garden party - you wouldn't want them stinking up the palace...



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,897 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    If only white van man would take time out from earning a taxable living to put the time into the considerable mental gymnastics required to understand why armies, borders, free speech and national pride are bad, taxation is good, men are women, jihadis are misunderstood and so forth then they UK would be back in the utopia of 70s Britains lickity spit except Jezza would have found the magical combination to make it work this time

    Pure lazy, those plebs


    Incidentally, I do like threads like this which show what a low opinion of the "plebs" that high minded anti establishment types hold

    It's like they can't believe that they're not running the show when they're obviously so much smarter than everyone else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,897 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr




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  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    England, Britain, the UK and British all get used in whatever way suits the politics of the speaker, at least that’s my observation.

    I think we do let them away without responsibility for the Great British Famine in Ireland though. Given they controlled all aspects of governance and policy…

    I mean, there’s a tendency to treat it as if it occurred on another planet. Those ppl who fled to the US and elsewhere, destitute, starving and in rags were citizens of the worlds biggest super power at the time, even if they might not have wanted to be.

    You never hear it portrayed as millions of starving Britons, fleeing poverty and starvation, took refuge in the United States… I wonder why? Do unionists and British nationalists not like their own history? Yet, they’ll passionately argue these are the British isles or want us to reflect on our deep historical connection with them…

    I just think sometimes we take ownership of a period of our history that we had no control over. If it’s shared history, it should be understood in its true inglorious reality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭ zom


    "must go on to prove his knighthood in the same way that any other Christian knight would, by killing Saracens."

    ;)

    https://paperzz.com/doc/9477595/the-green-knight-as-saracen-and-mentor



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Also why do the Queen’s garters need so many knights to assist her with them ? They must be very complicated…



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,086 ✭✭✭✭ Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    IF white van man can't be arsed doing a bit of basic reading and questioning, then white van man can't complain when the person or party he votes for turns out to be a liar or a cheat.

    Do NOT ask me how I define the terms "man", "woman", "male" or "female" when you reply to this post. You know the answer and it's probably irrelevant to the discussion :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,086 ✭✭✭✭ Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Do NOT ask me how I define the terms "man", "woman", "male" or "female" when you reply to this post. You know the answer and it's probably irrelevant to the discussion :)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,369 ✭✭✭ Odhinn


    He acted outside the UN charter, fed his own cabinet untruths etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,897 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    I used Britain very specifically, thanks. Britain has had remarkably stable government, their adventures on this side of the Irish sea is a completely different story.



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Their adventures on this side of the Irish Sea are indistinguishable from their adventures on that side of the Irish Sea. Placing Northern Ireland into a little box and pretending it has nothing to do with them when it’s problematic is a bit like saying your living room is on fire but it’s nothing to do with the rest of your house.

    Such is the bizarre set of paradoxes that is British national identify.

    They ignored NI and managed to walk into a chaotic mess with Brexit as a result of being oblivious or intentionally blind to the fact that they have an EU land border, and a highly complex one at that.

    Basically, when they say British politics they really mean English politics, which is seemingly all that matters in the U.K. anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,897 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    I suppose if you're a unionist you might believe that NI is idistinguishable from Britain but I'm a Nationalist and see them as completely different entities, Ireland was a colony of Britain not a part of it.


    All of which deflects from the fact that Britain is a distinctly stable entity. Switzerland would probably comparable on mainland Europe



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well, they can’t seem to make their minds up. On the one hand you’ve PMs like Theresa May and Boris professing their deepest love of “our precious union” and on the other you’ve this notion that NI and it’s troubles have nothing whatsoever to do with them, other than they run the place and include it in their union.

    Also you’ve got Scotland very likely to have another referendum on leaving the U.K., which would effectively end it as we know it and the rest of Ireland left it a century ago.

    I wouldn’t think you could reasonably compare it with Switzerland. Also the Swiss didn’t run an empire. They’ve a totally different history. Their current wealth is a relatively recent phenomenon, having been mostly built in the 20th century. Britain’s history is largely one of militarism, pulling resources in through empire and colonialism in the past and much of how it is today was built on the back of that.

    As for stable democracies, Ireland also features in that. It has been a continuous democracy all through those periods too. It went from the setup within the U.K. to probably being one of the longest, uninterrupted proportional representation democracies in the world, using the system for more than a century. Unlike most of Europe it was never interrupted by WWII invasions from outside, or by any rise of domestic authoritarian regimes.

    As for pre 1900s democracy in the British system, it was a tale of expanding franchise. It would be difficult to describe it as a modern liberal democracy until the end of the 19th century and really probably after full suffrage, but very few places were.

    18th century Britain wasn’t really a democracy. Barely 200,000 men (and no women) had any franchise. It was basically an oligarchy, not unusual at the time. The working classes had absolutely no voting rights. So really you’re looking at it becoming a democracy as the 19th century progressed, through a series of reforms and widening of franchise.

    Switzerland was actually shamefully late in granting full suffrage - Swiss women didn’t gain normal voting rights until 1971.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,897 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    The Swiss are very stable, no invasions, no revolutions, no dictatorships.

    Very like the Britain. Very unlike France, Spain, Germany, Italy and so on.



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well being in the highly defensible Alps or on an island tends to help that quite a bit, especially in the old days when armies tended to invade by walking.



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    In terms of current political stability rankings the U.K. isn’t rated that highly, the US is rated quite poorly now too.

    https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/wb_political_stability/



  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭ Burt Renaults


    Do you honestly believe that the constant smears had no effect on voters?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,897 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    Do you honestly believe that the media are the reason there was a 50 seat gap in that election? That's an even bigger stretch than the "Corbyn almost won" stretch



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  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭ Burt Renaults


    No, the first-past-the-post system was a major factor in the 50 seat gap. There was a difference of just 758,224 votes between the Conservatives and Labour. Whatever way you look at it, 40% versus 42.4% is an extremely close result.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭ Harryd225


    Well this that sort of thing is very prevalent in British politics, the tories have notoriously closer connections with the state than Labour, in the 70s Clockwork Orange was a secret British security services project alleged to have involved a right-wing smear campaign against British politicians from 1974 to 1975.

    The black propaganda led Prime Minister Harold Wilson to fear that the security services were preparing a coup d'état.

    The person who revealed this plot (Colin Wallace) was the first member of the security forces to attempt to draw public attention to the sexual abuse of children at the Kincora Boys' Home in Belfast. His superior officer ignored the claims and none of the newspapers he briefed published the story and the abuse of children continued unabated for years before the police were finally forced to take action following revelations in the Irish independent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,897 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    Ah right, it was the FPTP system as well, if only Labour had know going into the election how it worked and that winning with huge majorities in certain urban areas doesnt translate to more seats. 🤔



  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭ Burt Renaults


    They might have gained more votes outside of urban areas if the media, including the BBC, hadn't campaigned quite so hard against them. As I said, it was a very close result.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,159 ✭✭✭✭ Danzy



    That election night line to Jon Landsman by Alan Johnson, that "the working class have always been a disappointment to people like John".


    If the modern left, especially the Socialist activist types could dial back on or even hide the open contempt they have for so many, especially the working class, it could be electorally transformative.


    It will take time, it's a long road to convince people otherwise and that is the main reason the Tories will win again.


    Better the disinterest of the Tory party than the open hate from labour.


    Yet labour people are still unsure why they have lost the working class. It's incredible blindness.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,190 Mod ✭✭✭✭ 2011


    I thought this thread was about "War criminal" Tony Blair being knighted?



  • Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭ Mike Murdock


    Labour is now infested with Middle Class "Socialists" that are more concerned with Identity Politics and "Diversity at all costs" than focussing on the Economy and how to improve their former heartlands that they have neglected for decades. Starmer is not going to change that.

    If you keep denigrating your voter base, they'll leave you in droves.

    And this idea that the BBC are right-wing and Anti-Labour is laughable. They are centre-left, Pro-Europe ffs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,100 ✭✭✭✭ Ash.J.Williams


    But he's being knighted by his own queen so he's a war hero in that regard , it's only us plebes that think otherwise



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,369 ✭✭✭ Odhinn



    "Hundreds of thousands of people in the United Kingdom have joined a call for former British Prime Minister Tony Blair to be stripped of his knighthood, citing his role in the Iraq War.

    An online petition had attracted more than 700,000 signatures as of Wednesday morning, just four days after it was set up in response to Blair being made a Knight Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter in Queen Elizabeth II’s New Year’s honours list."

    It would seem that we plebs are not happy with this at all at all.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,100 ✭✭✭✭ Ash.J.Williams




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