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Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness *spoilers from post 118*

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,140 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    To be fair, inconsistent characterisation isn't entirely new within the MCU: let's not forget that just today we have the latest Thor movie, wherein the titular character went from a cod-Shakespearean heir apparent, learning to deal with the heavy responsibility of leadership ... ... to a himbo to be laughed at.

    There is far more improvisation and ad-hoc development of these films than we might admit; Kevin Feige may give the impression as this puppet-master, in control of every subtly and nuance - but he's making it up as he goes along, just with a tiny bit more structure.

    Dr. Strange is a hard character to grasp - precisely because he is, in theory, immensely powerful. What do you do with a character who can basically do anything? He could break every universe before breakfast - ok, uhhhhh ... women troubles, I guess?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I always took it to imply he would be the best of us, the journey there doesnt have to be paved in perfection. A person doesn’t need to be defined by one tragedy or mistake , in many cases the tragedy or mistake is what makes the person better, which is ironically what made strange.

    Similarly Tony Stark selling weapons of mass destruction at the start Didn’t take away from his heroic sacrifice in Endgame. Indeed his flaws of selling these weapons defined his life efforts to get “peace in our time”.

    DrZ is correct, strange has gone from a very powerful and clever wizard to almost a sideshow bumbling “funny” clown. Him and Wong are useless in the Spider-Man and multiverse movie.

    So Strange learns he can work with others , fantastic , but he’s still relatively useless in the movie. How did it take strange the entire movie to work with Chavez on her powers, it’s literally the first thing he had to do in DS1 when he found out that he might be able to get the magical powers.

    Anybody could of told Chavez that she can control her powers, literally anybody and the fact that it’s never crossed her mind on its own is a bit surprising considering she had the wherewithal to be able to survive jumping universes since she was a toddler.

    As silly as Thor is getting, it works well with the character who still retains his power, arrogance (less so) and his aggression , three of his primary characteristics. Strange is just a passenger doing magic stuff that’s not as effective as it was when he was learning. It’s a shame because Cumberbatch is a quality actor but like with Mikkleson in the original strange movie, they are sort of wasted in these movies.

    IM goes from playboy weapons manufacturer to committing and ultimately giving his life for peace. CA goes from rather naive soldier boy following orders to a natural leader of hero’s to retiring with Peggy in probably my favourite story arc of the franchise. Thor goes from a spoilt, cruel, war mongering boy to a much wiser hero (knows he’s not a leader) who is more in tuned with the damage war can cause but nearly and he’s way more chilled out.

    Stranges meaningful story arc was in the first movie and then in Spider-Man and this movie they have indeed made his character kind of a prop for other stories that is weaker and thick.

    I know you can break down any movie , even good ones and find flaws. But I feel the route they are taking with the Strange character is just not in keeping with how impressive he was at end of DS1 and IF. I can’t understand how a Stephen strange character wouldn’t try to help Chavez harness her powers.

    Ah crap, I’m better off not thinking too deep with these movies, it’s far more enjoyable to just leave the brain outside when watching.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    America Chavez was barely a character in this let alone one that took the spotlight from Strange. The one meaningful thing we learn about her we learn through a literal trip down memory lane. And as for "girl power", it could be argued (I'm not making the argument) that any girl power Chavez is meant to represent is completely negated by the fact that she has to learn from a man how to control it. Power sets always fluctuate in superhero movies and believe it or not people make mistakes.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,140 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Well yes, America Chavez was a McGuffin, not a character.

    To be honest, the only reason I enjoyed this film at all was because of Sam Raimi's touch; that excitement to see his signature style and flourish added to a series crying out for some invention and frshness. The plot was all over the place, but given I couldn't give a stuff about Dr. Strange in the first place, so wasn't that put out by any apparent inconsistencies of character. But just as an experience, I had a far greater time of it than (say) Shang-Chi offered.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,446 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    America's powers aren't magic, not in the same way that Strange uses magic, so regardless of how well he learned how to use and harness magic, that same teaching wouldn't apply to America.

    What helped America learn to control her powers was that the previous Strange's she met didn't try to fully help her, they tried to save her. We see at the start that when push came to shove, the Strange we saw there was willing to sacrifice America rather than trust her or teach her. It's why America tended to lose control of her powers when she was afraid. It was only because our Strange, having learned that he doesn't have to be the one to save everyone, gives her the trust and faith in herself she needed to be able to control her power.

    It wasn't about telling her she could control her powers. She accepted that Strange should kill her to stop Wanda from being able to take her power (with even Wong shouting that he should), but Strange showed her that he believed in her enough, even when his other variants didn't. But again, that ties in more with how Strange evolved in the movie through his story, than how America evolved.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    That seems like Pretty flimsy reasoning She’s literally training at the end of the movie. It’s not that hard to try and help somebody learn to use their powers , again it’s that it’s Dr Strange, who did seem really intelligent and clever up until Spider-Man.

    Listen, to be fair, these aren’t high brow movies so I shouldn’t be picking them apart.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,446 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Yeah at the end she's training in the actual magic that Strange and Wong uses. That's learned magic rather than the actual ability she was born with.

    I'm just saying, it's reductive to boil the movie down to how America was the one who beat Wanda and Strange didn't do anything. That's a plot point. It was Strange's story and character development throughout the film (as base-level and bland as it may have been) which advanced the plot and led to America beating Wanda. Christine and the Illuminati showed Strange that he and his variants are the biggest threat to the Multiverse because of how Strange can't cede control to others. Seeing what happened to other versions of himself led to him being able to give up that control to America so she could beat Wanda herself. It was his journey that led to the victory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Was wondering what made this thread explode and unfortunately it isn't surprising that it is someone going on a rant about women in the MCU - even if they only get a few short minutes of screen time.

    As has been pointed out repeatedly the only way to try to make this gripe stand up to any scrutiny is to attempt warp clear facts to fit the narrative they are trying to push.

    Some people are always going to find ways to complain about representation from anyone who isn't a white man (we see similar in Star Wars or even ads on TV) and though trying to point out the ridiculousness of their moaning I've never seen them admit that they were wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    'The best of us' is way over analysed.

    The comment was said by a flawed character who admits to not being able to see what happens post her death (which happens way before NWH)



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Don't feel it is safe to say the Illuminati deaths won't impact the MCU. Wouldn't be the first time a seemingly throwaway moment ends up being pivotal in later movies



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭kerplun k


    The only thing that made this thread ‘explode’ was a nice discussion on what people did and didn’t enjoy from watching the movie. Not every opinion needs to be backed up by facts and every discussion doesn’t need to be an argument.

    It’s perfectly okay to accept someone’s opinion even if we don’t agree with it. Shock/Horror I know.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,140 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    That section made pains to talk about "incursions" and two universes at war with each other so I'd say even money the Big Event is going to be the MCU fighting a bunch of Surprise Twist Cameos. Maybe it'll be seen that the MCU universe fired the first shots via Wanda.

    My point was more that the whole sequence was a cheap way for a Kill the Cat moment, the illuminati useful sacrificial lambs for Wanda to slaughter - without the awkwardness actually killing some MCU characters would cause. I wondered that Wong might bite it, a little disappointed he didn't (even if I prefer him to Strange himself overall). The Black Bolt death was fantastic though, and made good use of Raimi's skillset.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Well I disagree a 'nice discussion' begins and continues with rants about female characters, especially when at times they aren't even tethered to reality.

    No problem with accepting other opinions when they are made in good faith, in this case the starting point is very clearly the poster being annoyed with female lead/supporting characters and then trying to work backwards to find excuses as to justify their annoyance. Similar happens in most franchises nearly every time the character isn't a straight white man.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,794 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    But she didn't learn from the man to control it. Strange gave her confidence to find her own strength. Chavez story is about discovery about herself where she was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice of giving up her power



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    I wouldn't say 'surprise twist' cameos, they've set it up for it up perfectly for X-men intro via it now (I'm on record that I didnt want to see the multiverse bring them in but at least this makes some sense) and potentially even F4, if they do their movie set there before MoM.

    Fair that it might be impactful if she got a known MCU character but only on an emotional basis. Killing the Illuminati so easily showed far more power than knocking off Wong or basically anyone else in the MCU barring someone like Thor or Hulk.

    Barring killing off decent numbers of heroes in each movie Marvel are in a no-win situation really - complaints here that Wanda killing a bunch of very powerful characters which meant they overpowered her/was too easy/didn't give the other characters respect while in the Thor thread there are complaints that

    they didn't show Bale killing enough gods




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