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ESRI confirms Irish welfare dependent population is TWICE that of Germany or France



  • Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭ CarProblem

    "Maybe consider reducing this type of thing rather than taking from the lowest rung?"

    Or maybe both? this is a thread about welfare dependent numbers, start a thread about that topic and I bet a lot of people would also agree.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭ Luxembourgo

    So why do people think we are twice Germany or France?

    Bad policy? Bad culture? Soft touch unbalanced media.

    Id go media which bred policy which bred culture but would like to know others thoughts.

  • I think it's more to do with culture TBH. We're importing a lot of theories and practices from the US... and the US has extended it's physical/mental health services so much over the last few decades, moving away from being a service, to being a focus on profit.

    I suspect we're seeing the same thing happen here. The perception on what involves a disability has expanded considerably in scope over the last two decades, especially when you factor in the influence of psychology in determining a disability exists. And then, tie in the pharma companies who provide the drugs to manage these disabilities, often blurring the point between physical and mental issues.

    It's less about Welfare reform, and more to do with examining the motives behind our medical practitioners. The issue with Welfare disability is simply a symptom of a larger concern... and it won't diminish until we ensure that our own medical industry isn't going the same way as the US.

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,482 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble

    Thinking of the other two: Would your company employ them? Would you be prepared to manage them?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭ joseywhales

    The problem is the lack of Jeopardy. People might be unemployable when they have alternatives but if the alternative is death, they usually find a way to be employable. I would probably be the same way. It also explains why wealth is almost impossible to retain over multiple generations despite the huge advantages from generous inheritance tax policies and why wars lead to eras of greatest innovation. Without jeopardy we can do nothing. Necessity is the mother of invention. Speaking personally, the only reason I began working was because my parents said we will give you dinner, bed and an education, anything else is up to you. And I was very entitled to get those things. Some kids do not get that and that is why we have welfare not to support adults for life and to take away their jeopardy, diminishing their agency in life.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,578 ✭✭✭✭ Geuze

    In a tight labour market, would any employer take on the two working-age adult men I am referring to?

    Not easily, as they both have gaps in their CVs / employment records.

    They are the type to not take instruction easily.

    One of them was a bicycle courier, years ago, and had other jobs, but no job lasted more than 5 yrs.

    I'll put it to you like this: neither will ever get married, as no woman would put up with them. There is a degree of immaturity. But both are talented at something outside of work.

    Sometimes I think, fair enough, we as a society must pay tax to transfer income to these people, we can't let them suffer.

    But other times, as I awake as 5:40am to go to work, I think why are we paying able-bodied adults like them to play golf and/or video games all day?

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭ Brucie Bonus

    Yes back to the lowest income bracket. We must reduce the level its believed people need to survive.

    Its a thread about the findings which includes talk on welfare.

    So anecdotal. Its just talk. If what you say is true these people are gaming the system somehow. That doesn't support reducing payment across the board as a fix for a problem nobody can tell us the size of.

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,482 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble

    So probably no one will hire them.

    Either there is welfare, or they turn to crime to live, or they die of hunger. Which would you prefer?

    I totally agree re the moral hazard of welfare. But some degree is essential, to manage the crime rate.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,441 ✭✭✭ Damien360

    Of the 4 people the poster mentioned he personally knows, 2 are in need of support. I don’t think anyone would argue that. The other 2 clearly need no extra support and should be working. That’s who needs targetting but every single time that is mentioned, it gets shot down as anecdotal or it’s an unknown number of people. We all live in the community and can see who is playing the system. It is much harder to see the ones that need help and very often they don’t get it because they simply don’t know how.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭ Brucie Bonus

    It only gets shot down because there seems to be no verifiable numbers. We don't know if it's a big or small problem. I don't know anyone gaming welfare. So can I argue little to nobody is? People are complaining about things they don't know are a big problem or not and creating solutions to this undefinable problem.

    We waste massive amounts of tax payer money elsewhere and give some retired civil servants over 100,000 a year, increasing in tandem with wage rises. We've former ministers on more than one pension. Why do these threads always go for the lowest income bracket and tell stories about a lad they know?

  • Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭ CarProblem

    "Yes back to the lowest income bracket. We must reduce the level its believed people need to survive."

    I'd argue those working on low-ish wages are in the lowest income bracket as study after study confirms the generosity (over generosity IMO) of the Irish welfare system. I know several people depending on welfare. None, zero are "struggling to survive". Not one.

    Who'd have thought on a thread about the welfare dependent population most posts would be about........ welfare

    I'd suggest if you want to analyse the generosity(over generosity again IMO) of the Irish pension system maybe start a thread? I'd hazard a guess a lot of people who think welfare is over generous would also agree with on such a thread

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,578 ✭✭✭✭ Geuze


    But we should be honest.

    If people are long-term on JSA, and make no effort to find work, then either offer them paid work, or they move off JSA to SWA.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,756 ✭✭✭✭ Strazdas

    The two guys who have "received €100,000 in college grants".....what do you mean? They've spent twenty years plus at university or something? The standard registration (university) fee in Ireland is only €3000 per annum.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,578 ✭✭✭✭ Geuze

    Read the Barrington lecture given by Barra Roantree of the ESRI:

    See slide 20. We have loads of working-age adults with no market income.

    It is not anecdotal, it is a fact.

    See slide 21 and 22 - we have loads of lone parents, more than other countries, and they have low employment rates. Why? Part of the answer is the design of the welfare state itself. Ours system seems to encourage lone parenthood.

    See slide 23, it's unreal. 19% of working-age adults living alone say permanently disabled/unfit for work, miles ahead of anywhere else.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,578 ✭✭✭✭ Geuze

    They are a marrried couple. They have received 100,000 in college fee and cash grants on behalf of their children.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,578 ✭✭✭✭ Geuze

    PS pensions have been reformed.

    The PS pension scheme since 2013 is less generous.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭ Brucie Bonus

    Those on lower income are likely on some form of welfare or rent aid. As it should be.

    If you want to look at the symptoms and not the problem using anecdotal evidence, sure, why not.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,578 ✭✭✭✭ Geuze

    Table 1

    2012 DA = 102,000

    2017 DA = 134,000

    Hard to explain approx 30% growth over five years?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭ Luxembourgo

    So if there are no verifiable numbers? We shouldn't try solve issues or try identify these numbers?

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭ Brucie Bonus

    You should try identify the numbers while tackling other related issues we know about. For instance reducing the need for welfare.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,756 ✭✭✭✭ Strazdas

    Oh right, I thought you meant they were two single lifelong students or something.

  • That's the registration fee. Look at the yearly and/or Term fees for adults applying to somewhere like Trinity, or one of the business colleges, like Griffith. You could easily rack up a 100k in costs over a few years, when taking into account qualifications such as Masters or other advanced degrees, in addition to the Bachelor itself.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭ Luxembourgo

    Great to see another 5 euro added on for 756,000 people a week.

    Almost half a billion a year, with no qualification banding etc.

    And this from our right wing party

  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭ Fred Cryton

    Yep, if they had simply frozen the rate at 203 euro per week, and scrapped the Christmas bonus, that would have freed up about €900 million in cash which could be used to cut USC almost in half (scrapping it would cost around €2bn). See how easy it is if they were actually motivated to do it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,815 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko

    Probably because Govt was very happy to show 'economic recovery' and tell a great story about reductions in unemployment as part of the recovery.

    PR spin as welfare policy.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,815 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko

    All cases are 'real genuine cases' in that they meet the criteria set out. I've heard of people with amputations being called for review to see if the limb has grown back yet, and people with Down Syndrome called for review to see if they have been miraculously cured over night. Reviews happen all the time. Fear of losing DA is a major deterrent to people with disabilities taking up employment, which can be a bit of a gamble for them and for the employer.

  • Registered Users Posts: 33,623 ✭✭✭✭ The_Kew_Tour

    Well those poor people deserve benefit and to be fair I think deserve more as its poor for genuine people.

    Like I said already I'm not after the genuine cases. I feel for those poor people. But we now see that many are taking piss.

    No incentive to work. The reason we are possibly seeing change is the Well is drying up a little.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭ joseywhales

    I don't see why anyone "deserves" anything. It's a bizarre perspective. Why would anyone deserve something?