When did the Northside Southside divide happen

This kind of discussion comes up a lot, but how did it come about? the northside v southside, Phibsborough, and Drumcondra are really nice and lots of large victorian Edwardian houses a very wealthy area.

Beaumont, Whitehall, Artane good value solid homes, good public transport really good schools, not very scenic maybe but mount Merion is hardly scenic either.

Esel

The Act of Union.

tdf7187

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058220204/when-did-the-northside-southside-divide-happen

The River Liffey was constructed during the Viking era I believe.

L1011

When the Parliament building was built on the southside. 1780s or whenever

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236704#Comment_118236704

But places like Drumcondra and Phibsborough were developed in the victorian era long after the act of union.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058220204/when-did-the-northside-southside-divide-happen

public transports around Beaumont and Artane is rubbish , schools are decent

elperello

It's not a thing for real Dublin people it was invented by 2nd generation culchies.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058220204/when-did-the-northside-southside-divide-happen

The people in Places like Beaumont, Artane etc. are generally nowhere near as posh as the people in most of the southside areas.

In a lot of southside areas the people generally have more upper class English accents than Irish or Dublin accents.

Danzy

This has to do with wind direction.

It's not uncommon in cities across Europe and further afield.

Larbre34

Even when things went bad in Dublin from around 1900 up to the late 20th century, the Southside retained much of what was left of the affluence, such as it was. Where decay and dereliction did set-in, it tended to be worse in the north inner City. This, in turn, led to a greater incidence of crime and poverty and ultimately a greater concentration of social housing building programmes.

All that set up the Northside v Southside paradigm, but really it isn't older than about a Century.

Yurt2

When the first Dr. Quirkey's Fun Time Emporium opened on Sackville Street in 1876 it was the beginning of the end for the northside.

When they started charging people a half penny to cross the river

Bob Harris

Jimmy Rabbitte in the Committments.

Furze99

It's an interesting question as certainly some areas north of the Liffey were highly fashionable in the past. I suspect it's got to do with the old mantra that birds of a feather flock together. And that the professional classes in late 19thC and early 20thC Dublin, decamped to places like Donnybrook, Blackrock and DunLaoighre etc., for access to the sea and hills behind.

Once they grouped together on the south side, the split set in.

dasdog

Possibly when the Danish Vikings settled on the Southside and Norwegian Vikings the Northside but I have no evidence to back that up aside from hearing that from one of my archaeological mad brothers rants.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236740#Comment_118236740

5 different bus routes will take you to Beaumont hospital, the Howth road has 3 bus routes, the Malahide road has 4 bus routes.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236704#Comment_118236704

Was going to say when COllins signed the treaty but I think thisis more likely...

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236899#Comment_118236899

No rail which you need to be classed as good transport links

Gregor Samsa

It all stems from this simple fact: The only good thing about the Southside is the view of the Northside.

gameoverdude

Earl of Kildare.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236721#Comment_118236721

This was the moment it started alright it seems, the Earl of Kildare was the trendsetter

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236757#Comment_118236757

As a denizen of the Artane/Beaumont area, I can make a direct comparison, having attended a wedding ceremony for a person from one of the leafier southside areas.

A group of us, friends who hail from different areas north of the Liffey, were seated together. During the speeches, one fine young man - ex UCD don't you know - took an opportunity to welcome our little group to the Reception. With microphone in hand he said "....and welcome to the northside scumbags at that table over there". We were actually embarrassed for him, and the idiots who decided they were suddenly promoted socially and started a chorus of guffawing in our direction. They were, in the main, from SoCoDu and D6W. In fairness, probably two thirds of the attendees were horrified. Not sure whether they were horrified by the low tone, or horrified that a table of northside scumbags had managed to evade detection, what with the cheap cologne and shiny suits.

Funny how your post reminded me of that.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237470#Comment_118237470

I would've gotten up and proved his point and slapped the head off the little twerp😂 hilarious if that story is actually true I couldn't imagine anyone saying that and actually being serious

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237534#Comment_118237534

Sadly, Harry, it's very true. To be fair, none of us was personally offended by it, he was jarred. I think it made him look far worse than it did us. But it just goes to show how some people actually buy in to this rubbish.

By the way, at 66 I'm a bit old to be making stuff up on the Internet. Of course my memory may give me a slight hiccup from time to time, but some things do stand out. 😁

Pamsteer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236742#Comment_118236742

Name-calling and scapegoating, I think we can safely dismiss your opinion.

Atlantic Dawn

When postcodes were added, odds in the north, evens south, exception Michael D's gaff.

saabsaab

Never heard of it until I lfirst ived in Dublin. Got asked where I lived and depending on where they lived told me I was on the right/wrong side.

saabsaab

y0ssar1an22

is there a slope in dublin?

In a lot of cities the east end is (historically) less desirable due to the prevailing wind blowing from west to east so generally the most desirable areas are upwind or to the west.

to answer your question, no idea really.

Suckit

I remember hearing it was something to do with Lord Mountjoy.

He said something about sheep following him, or that where he goes, they will follow... I know I am surmising, but I remember hearing something along those lines years ago and again more recently but still a few years ago.

Most wealth etc. was on the Northside, he moved over and they followed him.

He then turned his shed into a prison and locked up everyone that didn't follow him over and called on the rest of Britain to join him on the south of Dublin's Liffey.

I could have made up the last bit.

It is surprising to find out how genuinely clueless many Southsiders are about the Northside of Dublin, and to find many who moved to Dublin from the Country, if they went to the Southside, the stories they tell of the Northside sound like something out of a murderers/criminals fairy tale book. Some are hilarious.

From neither, but am often around both.

y0ssar1an22

now that i think, could it be due to ports available in the south dublin and further south?

JupiterKid

It all really began when the Duke of Leinster decided to build his huge mansion (Leinster House) South of the Liffey. That was back in the 1750s.

Interestingly, the first substantial Georgian streets and squares were North of the Liffey - Henrietta Street in Dublin 1, just off Bolton St., is the oldest intact Georgian Street in Dublin, dating from the 1720s.

Once the Duke of Leinster moved his base over to the Southside, the trend was set which was maintained - and reinforced - in subsequent decades.

Suckit

^^

That's similar to the Mountjoy explanation I heard, and probably more accurate. Maybe the Mountjoy version was borne from Chinese whispers. I have heard many times that Mountjoy square has the only authentic Georgian houses in Ireland (or maybe just Dublin).

standardg60

The industrial revolution and with it the notion of 'free time', the first railway in Ireland, Dublin to Kingstown, and the taking of 'sea air' to aid health, all led to the decamping of the wealthy classes to the south coast.

The wealthy areas on the northside are coastal too, Malahide and Howth, though they probably came later.

StupidLikeAFox

In my early 20s, me (a culchie) once worked with a genuinely nice guy (mid 20s) from cabinteely who said he was only in the northside twice in his whole life and had never been outside the M50. Despite this he considered himself well travelled as he had been abroad a lot*. It blew my mind, the guy knew nothing outside of his own little enclave and I expect monaghan/galway/louth/tipperary etc were basically the same thing in his mind

*I appreciate the airport is on the northside but it doesn't really count - there is a kind of diplomatic immunity for southsiders if they are only going to the airport

*edit* I also appreciate this has nothing to do with the question asked but its a story I sometimes think about

Pamsteer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118238012#Comment_118238012

What I find ironic about your post is that you call yourself a "culchie" and yet lament that this guy from Cabinteely would think "Monaghan/Galway/Louth/Tipperary etc were basically the same thing in his mind" when that's exactly what his or others' use of culchie for all of us would imply.

spurious

The coming of trains gave the opportunity for certain groups to move to the southside and still be able to access their offices in the city centre daily.

The houses left behind were sublet.

The change of 'mail boat' port from the original site in Howth to Dun Laoghaire would not have helped.

I was wondering about more modern times, how we absorb ideas about places.

You have to either live or work somewhere use the environment to get to know a place.

I suspect it's something to do with the media in a more modern era.

Mad_maxx

The real divide in terms of affluence is East West, granted there are many fine locations out West

Shao Kahn

People in Tallaght just always had this snobbish attitude, like they were somehow superior to all the peasants living in rags over on the northside. And they had that beautiful backdrop of the mountains, so they could pretend they were some sort of swanky posh sub-alpine community.

It all really started from there, and sort of mushroomed out and became a "thing" until neighboring localities started to get notions as well. So really, just blame the tallaght-fornians with their uppity attitudes.

landofthetree

British army scum settled mainly in Dublin 1 after the act of union.

That why you get so many scumbags in North Dublin. Any time you see a D1 before the courts they usually have a British name. Also a lot of the black and tans settled in D1 after the truce.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118238451#Comment_118238451

they do have mad names alright

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118238049#Comment_118238049

Speaking as a Dub of many generations on both sides I happen to have a lot of time for and like "Culchies". I love the variability in accents and the different local flavours of people in Ireland. Pseuds and Boggers on the other hand... and there's a fair few in Dublin. And Galway. And Cork... The pseud level tends to go up the more urban the environment. Leafy suburbia being ground central for it and a lot of this northside/southside stuff stems from that. While there seems to have been some of that in the past, it seems to have really taken off with the rapid expansion of Dublin mid 20th century. If you're a dyed in the wool Culshie or Jackeen take pride in it. If you're a Langer, then... 😁

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118238451#Comment_118238451

in fairness there was huge numbers of British migrants in the 18th century boom. many Welsh and English. not just army.

But it is true. Its funny how many hardline Republicans in inner city Dublin are actually decendants of the other Island. Its clear once you start looking at names. Some interesting names in my local area. Hutch, Parrott are two wekk known examples.

As for the divide, i'm glad its beginning to die a little. For a small country having these divides like in Dublin and same in Cork, is an utter waste of time. its been hugely damaging imo.

Also not many people lived in Coastal Dublin. Swift was actually one of the first to advertise it as he had a friend who lived there. In his pamphlets he started championing the coast, and slowly it built up.

Georgian Dublin by Diarmuid o grady goes into alot of the reasons.

Parts of the North Georgian core are an utter disgrace. Mountjoy is one of the finest squares in Dublin, and has been basically abondoned by the likes of An Tasice, DCC and the Frank McDonald set.

Gregor Samsa

I'm 7 or 8th generation Dub on my mother's side. 3rd on my father's side. I don't live in Dublin any more (I'm from Donnycarney, exiled in Clare).

My grandfather (mother's father) was born just off Pearse Street (Shaw Villas, it doesn't even exist any more) in 1901. Growing up, he didn't have any concept of southside or northside - however he didn't regard people from the Liberties as being "real Dubs", because they were from outside the city walls. Now, that's not to say that he looked down on them at all and of course he recognised them as Dubs, but he took issue with the representation of that area as being somehow more authentic than other parts of Dublin.

In the '20s he got a house in Marino - one of the very first council housing estates in the country. It's about a mile from the GPO, but his mother was concerned because he was moving out to "the country". For most of Dublin's history, what we now regard as the northside or the southside (and increasingly the west side, which I think is developing its own identify independent of the other two) weren't actually part of Dublin city at all.

When I first met my (now) wife, who is from Clare, in 2001, I was living in Beaumont (northside) and she in Sandymount (southside). I invited her over to my apartment, and her first question was if her car would be safe. She had been living in Dublin for about 5 years at that stage, and apart from the city center centre (O'Connell Street, Henry Street, etc), she had only ever been into the Northside once - a Dart trip out to Sutton. She felt safe there.

I joke about Northside pride - myself and my friends used to have a mock Northside independence movement I even designed a flag for, and my plan is to have that flag draped on my coffin when I die - but in all seriousness, there's very little difference between the two sides of the city. Both sides have working class areas, well-to-do areas, troubled areas, quiet areas. As mentioned above, it's not really something that actual Dubs take too seriously. It's like when you see people on here going on about "posh D4" people running the country or having major influence. It's not a real thing.

Although that quote I posted earlier: "The only good thing about the Southside is the view of the Northside" - that was something I saw written in a toilet cubicle in FAS in Cabra in 1998. I thought it was hilarious. I have it printed on a mug now, with my Northside flag on the other side.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118238451#Comment_118238451

Dead right! Bloody Blank and Tans still at it 100 years later. Where's Mick Collins?

Thelonious Monk

I didn't realise there was any divide apart from the odd jibe here and there. When people say Southside they often just mean the affluent areas along the dorsch line and don't think about the rest of the place. I just spent the weekend house sitting my friends house in Walkinstown and it's pretty much a mirror image of Artane where I'm from, a drab grey suburb featuring pretty much nothing of note, which sums up most of Dublin really apart from the nice parts with nice villages where most of us will never be able to afford to live! At least the grim part I live in now is close enough to the sea and St Anne's park so I'm grateful for that.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118239537#Comment_118239537

They named an avenue on the Northside after him to keep the West Brits down. Arthur Griffith too. Like the way Iran named the street in Tehran that the British Embassy is on after Bobby Sands (the British then moved the main entrance to the other side [Ferdowsi Avenue] to avoid having to use the address, but the Tans on the Northside have had to put up with it).

Q: What do you call a Northsider in a Suit?

A: The accused

Q: Why did Cleopatra disown her Northside heritage?

A: She lived in denial (de Nile)

Q: What's the difference between a Northside woman and a walrus?

A: One has a moustache and smells of fish. The other lives in the sea.

Gregor Samsa

A Northsider* and a Southsider* are standing beside eachother at the urinals. When they're done, the Northsider heads for the door while the Southsider heads for the sink.

The Southsider call out "On the Southside, we're taught to wash our hands after we pee!"

The Northsider replies: "On the Northside, we're taught not to piss on our hands..."

*(replace for whatever area/school/club/profession/religion etc. you identify with, and its antithesis)

TP_CM

The only thing I can offer to this thread is that the etymology of Ballybough is Baile Bocht, or 'Poor Town' os gaeilge. I'm not sure which came first though. Was it a 'poor' town and so the affluent moved south? Or did it become a 'poor' place as a result of the affluent moving south.. Not sure.. Or maybe it's completely unrelated.