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Fuel Price Protest Dublin 24th November



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,817 ✭✭✭✭ cnocbui

    You are both missing the point. Dieselgate has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I was highlighting that it has been known since 1997 that diesel emissions contain an extremely potent carcinogen. I wasn't mainly referring to Nox. Anyway, the fudged Nox emissions from diesels were still higher than for petrol at the time; that they were actually even worse than what was thought is near irrelevant, as even the faked numbers were worse.

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,969 ✭✭✭✭ end of the road

    abolish the indirect subsidy to the irish pub known as MUP.

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,817 ✭✭✭✭ cnocbui

    The manufacturers have nothing to do with Irish fuel excise policy. The Greens, EPA and government messed up badly and are not to be trusted in their pronouncements or policies. Just level the playing field and let consumers choose what they want.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,426 ✭✭✭ MrMusician18

    Consumers don't ever have choice only the illusion of choice. If the petrol engine car is the cheapest to produce then that is all that will be produced - where is the choice there?

    Just level the playing field is a simplistic nonsense argument against regulation. Libertarian bollocks really. Allow hormone beef and let consumers choose you say - very soon the market gets flooded with hormone beef so there is no real world choice for anyone.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,546 ✭✭✭ elperello

    I note that AGS issued a statement saying they were "disappointed" at the lack of engagement by the protest organisers.

    If there is a Round 2 in December maybe the book will come out.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,969 ✭✭✭✭ end of the road

    that is what the government are trying to do.

    level the playing field so that people can move over to more efficiently powered vehicles.

    changes are coming whether we want them or not and the old ways you want to keep are going as they are unviable.

    abolish the indirect subsidy to the irish pub known as MUP.

  • Registered Users Posts: 25,365 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo

    Can anyone link me to the stories about when the hauliers dropped their prices when the global fuel costs were lower than their supposed multi year contracts?

    For some reason I cant seem to find them...

  • Registered Users Posts: 25,365 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo

    That's like saying sure there is no point in living as you are going to die anyway!

    2* will have a much bigger impact on the world, including Ireland than 1.5* would.

    They are trying to limit it as its no longer possible to stop it, mostly because certain people refuse to acknowledge it and the real world changes that need to happen.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,457 ✭✭✭✭ MadYaker

    If they want change then they have to get the voting public on their side because that’s the only way to put pressure on the government. They only care about votes. These moronic protests just piss everyone off and turn the hauliers into the bad guys and so it’s very very easy for the government to simply ignore this or join in denouncing them. It’s brain dead behaviour that won’t achieve anything.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,587 ✭✭✭ Pussyhands

    That's not the same thing.

    What do you mean 2 will have a bigger impact on the world than 1.5 would?

    If I have a block of ice and the room is at 2 degrees the ice might take 2 hours to melt. If the room is at 1.5 degrees it might take 2.5 hours to melt. The end result is the same, just takes longer.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,365 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo

    Erm, I don't even know where to start with this one to be honest.

    The polar icecaps arent blocks of ice sitting on a table.

    Hopefully there is some reading in your future, ideally before posting again...


    Here is a free starter for you.

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,817 ✭✭✭✭ cnocbui

    1.5°, 2°? Try 6°, which is about the increase to get to the normal annual average temperature for the planet. Of course the ice caps disappear completely, but that too is the norm. Life on earth thrives at that temperature and higher levels of CO2, that's why we have oil and coal deposits. Extinction is not on the cards.

  • Registered Users Posts: 25,365 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo

    "life" is a bit generic, care to elaborate no what life you mean?

    A planet of plankton for example is life thriving but not great for the rest of us.

    And thats before you even talk about the other effects...such as no more Gulf Stream, massively reduced fresh water supplies, earth rotation slows down, oh and a lot less land available...where do these people live?

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,817 ✭✭✭✭ cnocbui

    Earth spanning forrests; so much abundant food you have mega fauna to eat it. Photosynthesis increases with temperature, and the optimum just happens to be around 23°C, so plants thrive if there is enough CO2, and that was clearly the case, and there used to be far more in the atmosphere than the current exceedingly low levels.

    If the gulf stream stops, it gets colder, not hotter, which is what I think is about to happen. CO2 levels and temperature both rise suddenly just before a glaciation even kicks off. Funny, that.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,536 ✭✭✭ Nigzcurran

    A major haulier I know lowers the rate they pay to subcontractors when the fuel price goes down so the subcontractor never sees the benefit of it, they also higher the rate paid with rising fuel costs but not as much as the cut! Long story short; the big hauliers always make money, it’s the smaller crowds and owner drivers that suffer the most and that’s who was in the protest

  • Registered Users Posts: 25,365 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo

    So in summary, plantlife and mega fauna...sounds great. So from the planets point of view its awesome, how about us humans?

    Oh and bonus question, how long before the earth spanning forests arrive and the mega-fauna evolve? What happens in the interim?

    Where do all the people live and get their food & water from?

  • Registered Users Posts: 25,365 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo

    Yeah, because those business are run properly. If business fixes their rates while their costs are not fixed, well then thats not a very clever business.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,536 ✭✭✭ Nigzcurran

    The major hauliers set the rates they pay the subcontractor and if they don’t like it then they just get someone else, the usual race to the bottom. Plenty of online sellers offer free delivery to the customer as they know they can get it delivered for peanuts.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,546 ✭✭✭ elperello

    Unfortunately for them the smaller independents are more often price takers.

    They have vehicles on finance, bills to pay not to mention mortgages and families to take care of like everyone else.

    They end up working on the basis that any work is better than no work even if it's not viable.

    It's a tough business and this diesel price inflation is just the latest blow to a sector we all depend on.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,426 ✭✭✭ MrMusician18

    This nonsense is planned again for this coming bMonday - 24hr blockade this time.

    My daughter has a medical appointment on the city so I guess it's add hours to the journey.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,467 ✭✭✭ blackwhite

    I see that, yet again, their demands include VAT reductions for fuel.

    Are they trying to tell us that none of them are VAT-registered, or do they think that the general public is too stupid to realise that businesses can reclaim their VAT?

  • Registered Users Posts: 7 al_nix

    They are claiming to speak for the people but agricultural vehicles who they called on to participate pay an even more reduced tax on "green diesel". They also asked private cars to take part but in a reduced capacity and I doubt there will be many people doing this.

    These protests are not asking the government to stop taxing fuel so much they asking the gouvernment to shelter them from the market price of oil and delay or thwart climate response and incentives to move to less carbon-intensive or carbon-neutral systems.

    These incentives are aimed at businesses that can change e.g. large businesses that can afford to upgrade fleets. Or trucking contractors who may be tempted to buy a cheaper less efficient truck when a better option is available to them in the belief the oil price will not go up too much or they can bully the government for help. Even these "little guys" (in the €250,000+ trucks) without the oil price hike would have been better placed and could possibly have taken the time to sort out their fleet.

    I do not deny that there are some cases where contracts push the liability for changing fuel prices on to subcontractors and limit the fees the operators can collect or that some businesses can not afford to upgrade their fleet and have been squeezed by bigger firms subcontracting to them. These businesses in some cases are essential as the larger firms do not have the capacity to provide the service without the subcontractors and the service is essential e.g. school busses. In cases where state-owned entities behave like this, we need to change policy. In cases where private firms who can afford to change act like this, they need to be allowed to come close to not delivering on their contracts so they will set up a sustainable sub-contracting model or hire more drivers. In cases where private firms with essential government contracts act like this, they need to be reviewed if the state is paying a price at which the service can be delivered even at breakeven or a loss the suppliers business can sustain without harm the contract should be honored at the supplier's expense. In cases where suppliers have bid prices that can't be delivered without requiring unstainable risks from the supply chain, the contract needs to be renegotiated. This will be painful but it is long overdue.

    The tax on fuel has not changed much the announcement the carbon tax will go up just coincides (helpfully for the protestors) with a historic high in fuel prices due to OPEC trying to recoup pandemic losses by restricting supply.

    Post edited by al_nix on

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,467 ✭✭✭ blackwhite

    The price of gasoil is now approx. 10% lower than it was when it peaked approx. 6 weeks ago.

    There's usually anything from 6-8 week lag (ICE pricing is based on contracts for delivery following month, and there's a supply lag in prices feeding through to pump prices also). We should start seeing average pump prices dropping approx. 10cent between now and early Jan

    EDIT - forward pricing also indicates that the market expects prices to be relatively stable / down slightly over the next 12 months also

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭ Patrick2010

    Have to go to Newry in the morning before 10, what’s the chance of getting caught up in the protest? Going from south Dublin via m50

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,546 ✭✭✭ elperello

    The plan is listed on the Facebook page, looks very comprehensive.

    Search - Irish Truckers Haulage Association Against Fuel Prices.

    A bad day to be travelling in the Dublin area.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,215 ✭✭✭ Snickers Man

    I did a search for "Trucker Protest" and found a link to this thread from 16 years ago!!!! And on the same issue. Diesel prices.

    And it's not the only thread. Seems like these quys are never happy.

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011

    Train station carpark significantly busier today - seems there'll be less people on the roads to be inconvenienced by this

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,693 ✭✭✭✭ stephenjmcd

    Less truckers too.

    Counted 7 that have come past the office on the quays so far with a Garda escort. Garda estimates of in total around 40-50 trucks.

    Much smaller than last time.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,467 ✭✭✭ blackwhite

    Took a walk around Dublin Port in the last hour. Looks like less than 20 trucks are causing all of the disruption down around there.

    Don’t know if there’s any protests elsewhere?

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