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TFI Fare Revisions from 28th November - New 90 minute fare included in new simplified fare system.

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Comments

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Based on these changes, I really need to figure out if my Taxsaver is worth it. Got a rail/Luas one currently.

    Old daily fares would have been a 3.60 rail fare, a 54c Leap90 Luas fare, and another 3.60 rail fare, so 7.74. New would be 4.60; raising to 5 from May

    I would drive maybe five days a month on average in normal times, so taking that away plus leave and public holidays; and adding a bit back in for weekend days I use the ticket; I would have had maybe 1550 in spend. Annual ticket doesn't make sense without taxsaver in that case (its 1800); but with taxsaver it does.

    On the new pricing, its about 1150 from May, so with taxsaver I'm saying very little. Plus I would get some of my bus trips included by the 90 minute window whereas currently I pay epurse for them; so that difference is gone.

    I can't imagine this is rare. For anyone doing any form of hybrid work, living within the 90 minute zone, we already knew Taxsaver was a bust and there were proposals to do something about it.

    I'd suggest that the very first thing they need to do is reduce all the various multimode fares to the level of a single operator fare - preferably Luas's 1300 not the CIE 1450 - and make everyones Taxsaver multimode.

    1300 is still a poor notional price for that, as assuming 230 workdays and two 2.50 fares is 1150; but its accepted that the annual fares are artificially high due to nobody buying them without Taxsaver!


    (yes, this is going to need more subsidy to be given to cover the change in income - but if people drop Taxsaver to pay the cash fares, that subsidy is still going to be needed anyway)



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,405 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    I agree with the above.

    Part of the problem is that the gross cost of monthly / annual tickets was pushed up over a number of years thereby reducing the discount, on the premise that people were getting tax relief. This should never have been allowed to happen.

    So much so that without the tax relief they often don’t offer discounts any more which is ridiculous.

    Given that some employers refuse to participate in the scheme it is inherently unfair.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,251 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    The annual tickets are problematic now that this new fare structure has been introduced because it doesn't make sense to have this mode-agnostic standard fare while having mode-specific monthly or annual tickets - it's just so inconsistent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,222 ✭✭✭ billyhead




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ Brian201888


    It did indeed, must have been something not updated fully yesterday



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  • Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭ xper


    I noted with surprise that, in the fares determination document, they explicitly gave the example of being able to commence a return journey on the same route within the time limit as a legitimate use of the 90 minute transfer fare. I'm pretty sure that such time-based fares on public transport networks elsewhere often exclude return journeys. A nice surprise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭ Citrus_8


    Yes, I know an example elsewhere where a return journey (identified by the moving direction back to the starting point direction) within the ticket validation time is being charged as a separate journey with an exception for orbital routes, as their end point is the same as the starting point. I was actually myself who got involved in the new fare system in my home country many years ago and made lots of trips trying to break the system and find the mistake. Me and other volunteers found lots of interesting cases which were quickly fixed before launching a new ticket fare. It looks that this was not testing in a real like environment in Dublin, sadly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,622 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    I used use the TFL hopper fare to get a free ride home when popping to the shop



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    The old T90 allowed returns. Leap90 gave the discount on the return on buses only I think?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,208 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    Thanks for all your obs re the return journey issue.

    I also wonder does the driver validator/ticket machine give you a €0 ticket on the return journey (or any other short trip journey) since validating at RHS gives an automatic €2.30 fare?

    That is why I noted that instead of using the driver machine for short hop, it seems better and cheaper to auto validate if making subsequent short or longer hop journeys.

    I'm sure it will all become clearer in time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭ Citrus_8


    IMO, return should cost as it brings you from A to B and from B to A. It's initially two trips in comparison to A to B via somewhere if you need to change route/mode, or just A to B direct.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭ MOH


    Fairly sure I got overcharged the other day on a Leap fare that should have been the now "short zone" but wasn't.

    But I can't find any way of checking what the actual correct fare between two stops is? The DB mobile website is a joke, and the desktop site keeps referring me to TFI for fare information and vice versa.

    Is there anywhere that actually gives the correct fare information for a given journey?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,405 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    1-3 stages is the short fare still.

    Routes that changed when the H Spine and C Spine were launched have new stages that reflect longer distances.

    FYI the lack of info is down to the NTA and nobody else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭ MOH


    The fares determination linked to in the OP states that "the new fares structure for Dublin ensures that distances travelled on the new short fare are approximately 3kms, which is slightly longer than the average distance possible on the existing 1-3 stage based fare on bus services. This also means that some customers who previously would have paid €2.25 on the 4-13 stage fare will now pay €1.60 for the same journey."

    That would seem to indicate that the new short fare zone is not always the same as the previous 1-3 stage fare.

    Happened again on Saturday night when the drive's machine wasn't working and they told me to use the right hand validator as the fare was the same. Fairly sure it wasn't. (And now I can't check it since the Leap card website has helpfully decided I don't have an account registered.)



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,405 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    I’ll try and be clearer.

    The plan is for the stages on every route to be redone to facilitate the 3km rule.

    In other words extend the distance between them so that 1-3 stages does represent up to 3km.

    The NTA have only done this for the H Spine and C-Spine routes so far.

    On every other route the stages remain unchanged and the 1-3 stage distances remain in place because the NTA have yet to tell Dublin Bus or Go Ahead what the new stages should be.

    So, 1-3 stages remains the basis for the short fare but it’ll get you further on the H Spine and C Spine as they are the only routes they’ve sorted out so far.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,896 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    The updated short zone maps needs to be rolled out to every route, BEFORE they increase the price to €2.50 for the 90 minute fare.

    It will be an absolute farce if the increase the 90 minute fare to €2.50 next June, but only gradually rollout the new short fare zones over the next 3 years as each BC corridor is rolled out.

    It would be crazy for someone like me on Stage 4 at the moment to go to €2.50 in June, only for it to drop back to €1.60 short fare in 3 years time when they rollout the BC corridor in my area.

    Of course it is mad to increase the price to €2.50 in the first place, far too expensive, but the above would make it even worse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,618 ✭✭✭ thomasj


    Having been away from taxsaver this year due to the extension, I have been topping up 40 euro a fortnight and that's covered my trips for the 2 weeks.

    Ive applied for the annual bus/rail/luas for 78 a fortnight for next year, and I have seen my first paycheck online for 2022. I am 12 euro worst off for the fortnight . I don't know whether it's due to changes to tax from the budget or not.

    I'm not sure whether this 90 minute fare may have much impact for many 9-6 workers as they will still have to pay it twice in the workday , their shift wouldn't be enough for the 90 minutes.

    But for me I'm glad I've put in for the taxsaver next year. 6 euro per week coupled with not having to topup will save me a couple of hundred.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,169 ✭✭✭ Polar101


    Have to say the new 90 minute fare has been very useful - can do a bus+train+luas trip on the same ticket. It's a bit confusing with the Irish Rail readers, but so far I haven't been overcharged.

    I wish the card readers would show much there's left in the ticket, but I guess that's not possible with the current equipment. At least I can scan the leap card on the android app and figure the expiry time out there.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,208 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    So is it true that there is no "fare calculator" on DB at the moment? How does a passenger work out if they qualify for the short zone fare (3k) or not does anyone know? Just guess or measure on google maps or what lol! I'm referring to the latest roll out of Bus Connects and the new fare structure.

    Happy Christmas, and as a bit of a lurker on this board I am grateful for the information given freely to those like myself who are often very confused!



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,896 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Spanish Eyes, up until about two weeks ago, there was a fare and stage calculator on the DB website, that would have allowed you to work it out, but they seem to have pulled it now!

    So, yes, there is absolutely no way of knowing now, utter madness!

    Clearly the NTA have utterly bollocked up the launch of these new tickets, with poor information and too expensive price.

    I can only hope that they rectify this in the next month or two by releasing clear information on the short fares, with maps and add the appropiate fare to the TFI journey planner.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6 757TFFIU


    Has anybody established if using a free transfer onto another mode of transport within 90 minutes has any impact on price capping on a Leap Card for the day or week? I would normally buy a taxsaver annual ticket in January, but haven't this year as (like I'm sure a lot of people) I had no idea when I'd be back in the office or how gradual the return would be.

    For example - the majority of my commute home can be covered by Luas for the €2.30 fare, but in bad weather I could transfer at no additional cost within the 90 minutes to Dublin Bus, and that would spare me a 15/20 minute walk in the rain from the Luas stop to home.

    My question arising from that - even though the transfer to Dublin Bus from Luas is within the 90 minutes, and covered by the €2.30 and therefore effectively free - have I just forced the price cap up on my Leap Card for the week?

    The Luas price cap for the week is €27.50, whereas the multi-mode price cap is €40.

    There's nothing apparent from the TFI Leap Card website that answers my question.

    Thank you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,040 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    You'd imagine that a journey consisting of Luas then Bus, with the latter free, would only count towards the Luas cap; but in the other direction it would be considered a Bus fare so wouldn't count towards the Luas cap.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,251 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    The problem with the €1.60 fare and the fact that the NTA have implemented the longer 3km journey for this fare category on the new routes is that people who previously would've paid the higher fare but who now qualify for the lower fare under the extended 3km range are in the habit of using the right-hand validator without driver interaction.

    They should have implemented the 3km €1.60 fare throughout the entire network instead of this piecemeal approach coupled with new route launches. How the hell are they meant to inform passengers if they can't market the new fare structure and range because they're applying double standards across the network?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,040 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    when are the half price fares for students/young adults announced in the budget due to come in?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,260 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Dravokivich


    There's been no change to how fare capping works. ePurse usage on Dublin Bus , Go Ahead (Dublin city services), Luas and Irish Rail (SHZ) will still count towards the fare capping. The transfers at 0.00 have no value to apply to the cap.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,260 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Dravokivich




  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,169 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine




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