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TFI Fare Revisions from 28th November - New 90 minute fare included in new simplified fare system.

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Comments

  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,171 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine


    Has the DB fare calculator been taken down?

    Anyway, there's still no detailed info on the short fare and how it will be measured. I think it will include a lot more people than before. And, yes, it will require driver interaction for now. This step is just minor changes using existing equipment. It's not enough but it's a step that should have happened years ago so I'll take the win for now. It's been barely a year since the NTA took over fare revenue from Dublin Bus.

    But the fare itself is a big issue. A lot of people who read the proposal are pissed off about this and a lot more will be pissed off when the fare goes up next year. €2.25 is definitely the most common fare and most people won't need to interchange even after BusConnects. My 5km journey is going from €2.25 to €2.50. I have no need to interchange regularly and I only use the bus a few times a week so the caps don't come into play. €2.30 isn't great but most people can live with that. I suspect there will be a campaign in March to keep it at €2.30.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,046 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    €1.50 flat 90 minute fare covering the whole SHZ would be simple and no increase for anyone - I mean do they want people to use PT or not?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    They could have left the single fare as is and the have the €2.50 for 2+ fares.

    Or do like London and have 1 free transfer in the allotted time and then pay again which would have suited most commuters.

    Is the 3km a journey distance or crow flies ? If they done this in Limerick my single bus 3.4km journey would be hiked up if using road distance



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,046 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    Or do like London and have 1 free transfer in the allotted time and then pay again which would have suited most commuters.

    one of the key features of BusConnects is more transfers (or it was when it was first announced). How many passengers will be making 2 transfers though, not really worth the extra complication of charging them extra.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    .That would require significant additional Government funding to cover the massive shortfall in fare revenue.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    Believe that there are still certain wheels in motion in the background in terms of the implementation and finer details of this new fare system and how it will work in practice which is also why no operator other than LUAS have yet published any details on the new system etc.

    Really shouldn't be that way and it should be finalised by now, but with the network committed to be changing on 28th it could well be the case that they know they need the new system to launch at same time as the network but it's behind where they would like it to be.

    Agree that going to £2.50 is a bit much. I would have been okay with £2.40 or so but going to £2.50 is a little too much. Would have been sensible o just go with £2.30 and review at next fares determination rather than say it's going to increase straight off the bat. I presume that the NTA are going down this road because of fear of loss of revenue?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    My point was London have no extra charge for distance so its £1.40 for 1 or 2 buses. If you want 3 buses you start over

    Bus Connect will make it €2.50 for most people for 1 bus which is wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,046 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    well, yes... but how much in the context of the billions being promised for transport in the dim and distant future. I'd like to see them put their money where their mouth is now.

    single cheap flat fare - no one complaining about it here, no more interaction with the driver, no complicated system full of exceptions, and incentive to get people out of their cars, particularly with WFH meaning fewer people have annual/monthly tickets.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    So you need to lobby the Government to provide the funding to allow that to happen and to pay for the additional staff and vehicles to surface the extra demand that would be generated.

    Believe it or no, the NTA don't simply ask for money and get it every time. Often what they want in terms of finance the Government isn't willing to commit in which case they can only deal with what they are given.

    I think they've got it wrong on the €2.50 fare still, it's just bad PR to say €2.30 than €2.50 after a while, just stick it at the lower amount and then just review it the next time the fares re reviewed. They've made a faux par here.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,896 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    So here are what the fares were in 2012 and what they should be today with inflation:

    • Stage 1 - 3 - €1.25 - €1.31
    • Stage 4 - 7 - €1.70 - €1.79
    • Stage 8 - 13 - €1.95 - €2.05
    • Stage 13+ - €2.40 - €2.52

    Only the 13+ people are ok, everyone else is getting screwed. Even the new short fare people are like a 25% increase in ten years (5 times inflation). The Stage 4 -7 people are the worst off at 10 times inflation!



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,896 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    "So you need to lobby the Government to provide the funding to allow that to happen and to pay for the additional staff and vehicles to surface the extra demand that would be generated."

    Given that they have been increasing fares at up to 10 times inflation over the past ten years, the question to ask is what have they been doing with all the extra money.

    The €2.50 fare is 37% higher then the London Bus flat fare of €1.83, how in hell can they justify that?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    No zones on London buses either. Same price for any journey.

    Now I get that TFL have the massive UK tax base and crazy high user numbers but they also have to fork out for tons of quiet or empty trains and buses every night so it's not all easy sailing



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,409 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    100% agree with this.

    Reducing the fare to EUR 1.50 isn’t going to happen without a substantial increase in the subvention, over and above the significant payments made during the last eighteen months.

    People seem to be forgetting that the operating companies would have gone bust last year but for a massive increase in day to day funding.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    You need to also remember that the vast majority of people who take a bus in London are taking far shorter journeys than the average passenger on your average Dublin Bus route though, so it's not exactly comparable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,409 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    It’s inevitable if there is fare simplification that there’s going to be winners and losers.

    I fully agree that the majority of people would be being “screwed” if this fare does increase to EUR 2.50. In fact, I think politically that will be toxic and it won’t happen.

    Most people could live with EUR 1.60 and EUR 2.30, but beyond that it’s just ripping people off.

    As I said the 90 minute option is a nice thing to have, and it is essential in the context of the rollout of the new BusConnects local and orbital routes, but the vast majority of people will continue to be making a single mode journey and won’t avail of it.

    The majority are paying for this.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    I understand what you are saying, however there is another group of people who are vastly better off, namely though who use more than one mode of transport, it used to be vastly expensive before multi modal caps and transfers for people who did that compared to what t is now.

    The tickets you are comparing from 2012 to now are not exactly the same because there are now caps and transfers which didn't exist then and whilst they may not work that ell for the bus only customer they are vastly cheaper for those who are using more than one method, you can't overlook that I'm afraid.

    I do think that €2.50 is too much as I've said a couple of times though. It should stay at 2.30, which I think is fine considering the extra features and benefits the ticket has now versus when it had none of these 10 years ago.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    Really ?

    There are people bussing it from Croydon to London Bridge. I used bus from Waterloo to Catford and my coworker Waterloo to Wimbledon.

    Ya there are plenty of people who train or tube then get a short bus but the 2 bus or long distance bus to work group is huge especially in South London.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    If you were to look at the average London bus journey vs the average Dublin Bus Journey, I can see the later being quite a bit longer. That doesn't mean that there are not people taking long bus journeys in London, but it's a far less percentage of their patrons than in Dublin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭ Stevek101


    The highlight from the determination:

    It is clear, therefore, that there are challenges surrounding the funding of existing public transport services

    as well as the improvements the Authority wishes to see implemented in order to improve provision across

    the state. In light of current uncertainties in relation to the wider economic recovery in the aftermath of the

    pandemic, combined with our ambition to increase the use of public transport as a means of addressing the

    challenges posed by climate change, it is the view of the Authority that the implementation of increased

    fares as the primary driver towards the overall cost of public transport provision is not appropriate at this

    time and could drive customers from public transport at a time when we need to see customer journeys

    increasing.


    And what do they do... Increase the fares for most 😂



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  • Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭ TranslatorPS


    To people asking about the measuring system for the new <3km fare on the city buses:

    The distance fares are going to be based on some sort of a hexagonal grid overlaying Dublin city and the shortest route possible between any two given points on the network. What that means is that if there are two or more routes connecting two particular stops and one meanders around, the fare will be the lowest fare possible by any service. To take an existing example, somebody going from say Sutton Cross to Harbour Road in Howth should be paying the same fare regardless of whether they take the H3 or the 6, and that fare should be as per the H3 as it offers the shortest distance connection.

    Personally I wholeheartedly agree with the approach to offer the lowest possible fare regardless of route taken, and it's something I respect from my experiences of the Japanese railway system which works just like that. However, it's unclear whether this means the shortest distance possible by any mode, or just on the bus network...

    In areas where BusConnects services dominate the network but old network services still remain, those old services will be converted to the new system, dropping the stages. Elsewhere where there are no BC services yet, the old stages will continue to apply, and the short distance fare will cover 1-3 stages.

    So yes, a price increase for anything on the old network.

    I for one would prefer the €2.30 price be the standard price and not just the promotional fare, but eh, fuel ain't gonna pay for itself I guess.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    Possibly yes especially when you factor in all the zone 1 only tourists or people making short trips from station to office or pub to pub or those lucky enough to live close to work.

    But if you were to compare people who require a bus to commute London would be longer I reckon. I was just looking at it a different way and thinking only about people who need the bus rather than an overall figure



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,896 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    "I understand what you are saying, however there is another group of people who are vastly better off, namely though who use more than one mode of transport, it used to be vastly expensive before multi modal caps and transfers for people who did that compared to what t is now."

    Sure, but realistically how many of them are there? I'd be shocked if was more then single digits. Even with the introduction of the much needed orbital routes, I'd be shocked if it goes over 10% of journeys.

    So the vast majority of us are being asked to subside this tiny minority at 10 times inflation!

    "The tickets you are comparing from 2012 to now are not exactly the same because there are now caps and transfers which didn't exist then and whilst they may not work that ell for the bus only customer they are vastly cheaper for those who are using more than one method, you can't overlook that I'm afraid."

    All of that is completely irrelevant to me and the vast majority of people who travel in on one bus. All we see is our fares going up at 10 times inflation for no gain for most of us. This is going to be incredibly unpopular with most people.

    And it all could easily have been avoided if they had simply choosen to go with the Amsterdam style, tag-on, tag-off system. You pay for the distance you travel, free transfers, much more fair.

    Instead we get this terrible hybrid model. Sort of like a flat fare, but not really as there are two fares and there will still be driver interaction and to set the fare at the highest amount possible. Worst of all worlds basically.

    It is going to look really bad when the newspaper articles start coming out, pointing out that the NTA have increased fares by 10 times inflation over the past 10 years.

    A lot of people are still driving to work due to Covid. I don't see screwing every one over with a €2.50 fare is going to attract many of them back to public transport.

    The NTA have shown themselves to be quiet incompetent with the choices they have made with these fares.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,035 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    Don't know where you're getting that figure from, yes inflation was low for years but in the 12 months to October it was 5.1%

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/1111/1259251-cso-inflation-figures/

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭ Stevek101




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,896 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk




  • Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭ TranslatorPS


    No idea. Charts for every route under the new system are meant to be made, but no clue whether they'll remain internal documentation or be made public.



  • Registered Users Posts: 503 ✭✭✭ Busman Paddy Lasty


    "And it all could easily have been avoided if they had simply choosen to go with the Amsterdam style, tag-on, tag-off system. You pay for the distance you travel, free transfers, much more fair."

    Have seen tag-on / tag-off systems work beautifully. Is there any solid reason for not doing this?

    Tag-on front door entry only, tag-off rear door exit only works really well and would ease congestion within the bus. Road traffic congestion is only half the battle!



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    Cost and time it would take to add a second validator to over 1,000 vehicles is an obvious one, as well as the fact that I don't think the heavily life expired current ticketing machines would be able to power such functionality even before the second validator is added on the centre doors, so they'll need to be replaced as well.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 503 ✭✭✭ Busman Paddy Lasty


    Thanks. That's quite do-able really. More Bus Connects than this fare revision, which is complex but don't have any issue with.

    (For another day but 2,000 validators and an up to date system seems a lot less than the CBCs and new buses)



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