DNA Paternity test: why does the legal mother have a veto?

I was reading this Science Daily website - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/10/061023193617.htm - from 2016. It states: "It then follows that if a child born to two blue-eyed parents does not have blue eyes, then the blue-eyed father is not the biological father."

I'm blue-eyed, as is my wife. One of our children is not. I'm recorded on the birth cert as the legal father. So, along with other factors, I decided to pay for a dna paternity test and do it as discreetly and confidentially as possible. I was told that confidentiality is the firm's highest priority.

However, I've now been told that under Irish law I need to have the written consent of the child's mother as the child is under 16 years of age. Aside from the fact this makes a mockery of the confidentiality promise (the one person I wanted it to be unknown to being the mother, of course), how can it be legal to give the legal mother a veto over whether the legal father can see if she has defrauded and deceived him?

All hell would break loose if I even asked her for consent. Whereas a simple, discreet test would clarify things calmly. Yet, a woman here - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/man-denied-records-relating-to-girl-he-thought-was-daughter-1.2975617 - was able to "secretely" get a DNA test done on her own daughter without her husband knowing in order to prove another man was her child's father (from an extra marital affair) and he therefore was forced to fund the child on top of the funding the husband was giving. I don't want to be that husband.

So, first, how is this veto on dna tests held by the obvious potential defrauder of a husband legal? Second, is there any way other than the unnecessarily stressful and expensive hiring of a solicitor and going to war/court that I can find out if I'm the father? (It's an awful pity one cannot post here more anonymously)

Conall Cernach

Could you yourself not get it done discretely without broaching the subject with your wife? That way you could avoid a massive row with your wife if the child turns out to be yours after all. Or is it a case that the testing company won't touch it without her consent?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985630#Comment_117985630

My idea was that both I and my child would have it done and then they would see if our DNA matches. And that would be that. However, unless the company has its information wrong, it would seem that even for that they need her name and consent.

Jeremy Sproket

Which is ridiculous.

If you are down at the legal father then why does she need your consent??

It's barbaric and misandrist that she can get one without your consent but not the other way around.

Firstly, I think you may have big issues with your relationship.....

Secondly, I know of one guy who got a DNA test on his.child, without the mothers consent, using an online company. No issue.

Maybe try a different company

mrslancaster

Think Ancestry do DNA testing for kids once a parent or legal guardian authorises the test kit.

https://support.ancestry.com/s/article/Activating-an-AncestryDNA-Test-for-Your-Child

They will also delete all your information at your request at any stage.

OscarBluth

Do you and your wife both have blue-blue eyes, or is one of you blue-grey or blue-green? Do either of you have parents with brown or green or grey eyes?

I read something a while ago about the problems with over-simplified genetics being taught in school. I have a blue eyed child without having blue eyes myself, blue eyes are a recessive gene which means both parents must carry at least one copy of the gene. If you have two copies, you have blue eyes, if you have one copy, its 50/50. My mother has blue eyes, so I clearly carry the gene without expressing it, and passed it onto my child, along with the two sets from her other blue-eyed parent. This all tallies with what I was taught in school which made it seem incredibly straightforward.

Because the blue eye gene is recessive, it suggests you and your wife both only carry the blue-eyed gene, as if either of you had another gene to pass on you'd have different colour eyes yourself. However, the article I read was making the point that its not at all as simple when you start getting into green or grey or hazel or other eye colours. So, if one of you has a parent with darker eyes, and your eyes could be seen as being grey, or greyish blue, rather than pure blue, its actually entirely possible you are carrying a brown-eyed or other colour gene. I can't actually get my head around someone reading a questionable pop science article and jumping to infidelity unless there's another reason.

In terms of the legality of the test: it seems a fairly straightforward safeguarding thing to have the other parent notified. Can you imagine the liability if a testing company went ahead with what you suggested, and then you turned around and murdered or assaulted your wife? I'm sure genetic testing is available if you are prepared to petition the court. That's definitely how it works in the UK: courts will always happily order court-ordered DNA tests, mothers can't refuse, but they are obviously informed. Personally, I'd steer very clear from things like ancestry and 23 and me and be certain what outcome you want in advance.

28064212

Are you sure you haven't confused "legally-admissible" testing with "peace of mind" testing? The mother's permission is absolutely required in the former (as is the putative father's), I don't believe it is for the latter. I had a quick look through the services list at https://www.treoir.ie/information/establishing-paternity-information/, and plenty offer at-home kits. They're not legally admissible, but that doesn't seem to be what you're looking for at this point in time.

Also, don't rely on a case based on events going back years - there were substantial changes to the law in this area in (at least) the Children and Family Relationships Act 2015.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987352#Comment_117987352

No, unfortunately. It is a peace of mind test, but the mother's consent is still required if the child is under 16. I double-checked their website and it is explicitly confirmed again that her consent is required for a peace-of-mind test. Further, copies of passports/driving licences and birth certs are all required as forms of identity to get this, non-legal, test done.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987406#Comment_117987406

Have you checked other providers, for example https://www.alphabiolabs.ie/product/paternity-test/? I went as far as checkout and was not asked for any information on the mother, and neither the product webpage nor their terms and condition mention mother's consent being required

wow. I remember this "science" from secondary school. My parents were blue eyed and green eyed and of their seven children four of us have brown eyes, varying from hazel to chocolate brown. Only three are of the blue/green eye variant.

I suspect there are other issues in your relationship that probably need to be discussed and to be honest, it's incredibly insulting and dehumanizing to be accusing your wife of being unfaithful for no reason other than your child doesn't have your eye colour. I hope you get the help you need.

jill_valentine

It is entirely possible for two blue eyed parents to have a brown eyed child.

https://www.ancestry.com/lp/traits/eye-color

If I had to guess why DNA companies require both parents consent, it's probably because they don't want to be pulled into disputes like this where there's a visible relationship issue motivating the request and they don't want to be involved in the fallout.

Edgarfrndly

You can order two kits from ancestry, you basically spit in a tube and mail it off. Takes about 6-8 weeks for the results to come back. Results are definitive.

seamus

Eye colour, hair colour, blood types, etc are used in school to offer real-world yet simplistic examples of genetics and heritability. They are not to be taken as gospel of how heritability works - eye colour especially. Go ask someone with a university qualification specialising in genetics about it and they'll give you a much more robust answer. What you learned in Junior Cert (or even Leaving Cert) biology should not be a basis for decisions about the future of your relationship.

Any road, if you're insistent on this, I suggest finding another provider. As a legal guardian of the child your consent alone is good enough for any and all medical tests or procedures. The company insisting on the mother's permission is cover-your-ass exercise.

In the strictest sense of the word, being named on the birth doesn't mean the father is a legal guardian. By contrast, the mother is always a guardian. Therefore the solicitors for this testing company have probably told them that the simplest way of not getting yourself into legal trouble is to always insist on the mother's consent.

Mefistofelino

https://genetics.thetech.org/how-blue-eyed-parents-can-have-brown-eyed-children

Some better science than that original article you used.

Not a legal professional myself, but this is how it was explained to me, 25 years ago, by my solicitor at the time - it is because the identity of a child's mother is already established by the fact that the physical act of her giving birth to the child is witnessed. A father's identity is obviously not established in the same way.

If you order a DNA test and have a sample taken from the child, and the test comes back showing you are not the biological father, then you had no right to give consent to a sample being taken from a child that isn't yours, and the taking of the sample would be considered illegal (maybe even an assault on the child).

I would avoid any company that takes a sample from a child without the proper consents.

Donald Trump

Would it not work to send both off to those gimicky ancestry tests and see whether both come back with the same matches in terms of your own cousins/family even if you can't get an official paternity test done yet?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118061579#Comment_118061579

The law would only recognise a legal father. Legal does not have to be biological. You shouldn't have paid your solicitor given he was talking out his hole.

SuperS54

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118061579#Comment_118061579

Have been lots of incidents of babies mistakenly swapped in hospitals so there is not a 100% guarantee that the "mother" is actually the mother in the same way the father may not be the father. At the time of test both are presumed to be the legal guardians so your solicitors advice is shaky at best.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118061692#Comment_118061692

I presume, ironically, that the same solicitor would be well able to advise on the "father's" maintenance obligations for so long as he is the legal father!

I wouldn't like to be a father whose child's mother is going off and getting solicitors advice to assuage her fears that I might go off get a paternity test on the child...........

If it came to it, the court could order an official one for him anyway.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118061729#Comment_118061729

The court can not force someone to submit to a paternity test. However, the court is allowed draw conclusions from someone's refusal: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/separation_and_divorce/presumption_of_paternity.html.

As I have previously posted, there are a number of labs offering peace-of-mind tests that do not require the consent of the mother. The principal difference between those and a legally permissible test is around chain of custody rules - a qualified third-party is required to take the samples for legally permissble tests, which also requires consent from both mother and father. Peace of mind tests can be just posted out and done at home.

@DonaldTrump.

I wasn't aware you were a family law solicitor, @DonaldTrump.

Having actually been through the process of establishing paternity (at my request) via a DNA test, I can advise that the information I was given was accurate, and confirmed in Court.

And yes, the Courts can waive guardians consent and order a test, but that is not what the OP is looking for here. He wants to get a test done secretly, without informing the other guardian and without her consent instead of going about it properly. If she refused consent, then he can apply for a waiver.

While the consent of one guardian is usually accepted for emergency medical procedures, consent for medical procedures is supposed to be sought from all guardians.

It is to protect the rights (and bodily integrity) of the child - not the adults.

Like I said, I wouldn't touch a company that didn't look for proper consents.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118061815#Comment_118061815

You stated that the father would have had no right retrospectively to take a sample if the sample later proved he was not the biological father. You are implying that he would have had the right if he was the biological father i.e. that biological paternity is somehow relevant for how the law treats his actions.

That is clearly a nonsense. It would also suggest that an adoptive father's rights are inherently less than a biological father's.

Additionally, if the man was previously assumed to be the legal father (either via marriage or via naming on birth cert), he does not immediately cease to be so upon mere receipt of the test results. You'll have to go back to the court for that. In the intervening time he is still the legal father in the eyes of the law. If he gets the results and throws them in the bin, he is still the legal father. The test results only impart biological information. Mere knowledge of that information does not change any legal standings any more than a wife's knowledge that it was her fling who got her pregnant and not her oblivious husband.

Pray tell us how you are going to establish the mens rea of this man's criminal act based on a fact which was only established subsequent to his actions?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118061692#Comment_118061692

Family court judge confirmed what the solicitor advised when they ordered a DNA test in my case (at my request).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118062028#Comment_118062028

Take it up with a judge. Not going down the rabbit hole of your usual nonsense. I've better things to do on a Saturday.

Suffice to say joint guardianship is what applies here, and part of joint guardianship is that joint guardians have an equal right to a say in consent to any medical treatment, (as well as religious matters, education, where the child lives, etc). Any company that disregards joint guardianship rights, is leaving themselves open to action being taken against them.

Example below of case where a father took a school to the WRC for disregarding his joint guardianship rights in matters relating to his child's education.

Father awarded €3.5k in discrimination case over daughter's enrolment in school (thejournal.ie)

Good luck, op, in whatever you decide, though I think you're probably worrying over nothing.

I'm out.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118062174#Comment_118062174

Well now you have completely changed your tune to say "joint guardianship" is what matters - i.e. it has nothing to do with your original assertion that biological paternity was somehow a deciding factor. In other words, you are at least vaguely admitting that you were wrong and it was just another example of your "usual nonsense" 😀 . What I said was perfectly correct.

I never said joint guardianship wasn't relevant or changed any tune.

I offered an explanation for why a mother's consent is always required that I was given by an actual family law solicitor, and confirmed by an actual family court judge.

I'm not going to waste my energy arguing with you over it.

Putting you on ignore now. (thought I already had, but maybe that was pre-vanilla Boards).

Atlantic Dawn

What happens if you discover from the results you are not the father and your wife is not the mother? The child turns out to be swapped at birth, perhaps prepare yourself for that eventuality from the results.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118062238#Comment_118062238

The justification that you gave was that the man would be guilty of assault if it turned out that he was not the biological father. That is wrong. That is the simple statement that I pulled you up on. Biological or not is nothing to do with it. He may or may not be guilty of something else but that isn't in question here. What is in question is whether the biological paternity, or not, would be a determining factor. It quite simply would not.

You going off on a completely irrelevant tangent that you never said something else, does not make the above statement, or you, you less wrong.

You didn't "pull me up" on anything. I posted a reply in response to a question asked by the OP and gave my real life experience of the "justification" offered by a solicitor and a judge.

But well done, yet another fine example of your usual belittling and unpleasant attitude.

I hope you're not going to keep harassing me now until I have to get a mod to intervene like I've had to before?