Can a business refuse hard cash? 💶💰

Fishdoodle

This morning i popped into a trendy coffee shop - ordered a take-away coffee and presented a €5 note ... only to be told they dont take cash as they hadn't a cash till. Card payments only.

So, I'm curious - can a business refuse a cash payment in this manner?

banie01

Yes.

Legal tender has caveats and prime amongst them is that it is accepted in settlement of debt and even at that their are limits in what must be accepted.(particularly coins). You have no debt with this business and you are proposing an offer for their goods. Their goods, their terms.

The business can stipulate any payment mode it desires and refuse same too for any goods and services it offers.

FintanMcluskey

I've been told once the business tells you it doesn't accept cash before the transaction takes place its legal

Lots of hipster type cafe's only take card now

mickdw

I can see benefits in terms of cash handling and all that but I don't see that policy being a success.

Creamy Goodness

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949066#Comment_117949066

It's their business, they make the policies. @banie01's answer covers it quite succinctly

vandriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949066#Comment_117949066

No offence(!) but I'm guessing you're not in the full flush of youth?

My teenagers don't do cash at all.

Fishdoodle

It seems we are drifting into a cashless society. As an aside, the reason I wanted to pay in cash was so that I would have some change I could give to a genuine-looking homeless guy down the street. - The knock on effect of not carrying change has broader implications.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949099#Comment_117949099

You could have bought him a coffee or a sandwich and paid by card?

maestroamado

I was surprised when i heard this first and thought it likely illegal.

I am thinking it suits banks and Government as all transactions recorded....

LollipopJimmy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949099#Comment_117949099

Only give cash to those begging if you're happy enough knowing it will be spent on drink/drugs.

L1011

Unless in payment of a debt (which a restaurant/cafe order is not), anyone can refuse to accept cash.

These days, its no-card places that are more likely to be of interest to authorities, specifically Revenue!

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949118#Comment_117949118

The info that revenue in particular glean from card terminals and reconciliation to individual cards is utterly amazing. Not just on the individual businesses but on individual spending patterns and using that to highlight disparity in income v spending.

Some of the analysis work and tools available to our Revenue service are very cutting edge and honestly would but one in mind that we are approaching a point when Tax Evasion with onshore personal funds is becoming nigh on impossible without detection.

The gap between detection and overt enforcement is huge, but the number of settlements in personal tax is an indicator of how effective they are becoming.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949154#Comment_117949154

Isn't it a case if you are at a restaurant and have your meal without them saying anything, then legal tender applies?

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949163#Comment_117949163

I do not think revenue can access any info from bank unless there is an investigation into someone for wrongdoing or an audit...

Where i am coming from is all goods supplied + vat is recorded... Therefore no incentive for business to deal in cash as i expect revenue have a formula to calculate turnover based on goods bought in....

El Tarangu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949099#Comment_117949099

If we moved to a cashless society, and people were no longer able to work cash-in-hand or evade charging VAT, the amount of extra revenue would enable the government to quadruple spending on addiction services, and still have plenty left over for other projects.

silver2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949170#Comment_117949170

Nope.

Legal tender goes back to the days when people had accounts with the grocer / draper / bar etc. They had your details, you agreed to the terms of the account and a credit account was set up.

If you went to pay that account at the end of the month and they refused cash, you could argue that the debt was extinguished.

Eating a meal for payment immediately after does not create an account where this applies. It is still regarded as a transaction where the assumed terms are that you will pay at the end of the meal.

So in terms of a normal everyday retail or restaurant transaction, the supplier can state their own conditions for payment. The market dictates reasonability.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949099#Comment_117949099

He's probably got a SumUp terminal that you can use.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950018#Comment_117950018

You are incorrect. Revenue have access to the reconciliations of all card machines and financial transactions via card.

Revenue can also access individual held by Financial Institutions without warrant via Powers granted under TCA 1997, with additional powers for criminal investigation.

Revenue aim to use info to ensure compliance esp during audit rather than prosecute.

The level of high level info and how it's held is best compared to mobile phone and cell site meta data. It's all there held without any assigned personal ID, until such time as a Revenue Commissioner decides to take an interest. At that point huge volumes of data and financial info are available without warrant or criminal investigation.

Revenue's ability to reconcile the terminal data to individual spending, isn't a guess or a musing on my part it's from experience in a professional capacity.

The sheer volume of data processed and data available to revenue investigations unit via these methods is incredible, and they are constantly working on improving the analytical and heuristic model they use.

It's very impressive tbh.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949099#Comment_117949099

a good knock-on effect, don't encourage street beggars. give through recognised charities... you could have got him coffee.

tdf7187

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058210776/can-a-business-refuse-hard-cash

Of course they can. Just as a business without the facility can refuse to accept cards and only accept cash.

tdf7187

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950130#Comment_117950130

Yes and under the money laundering legislation Revenue also have access to Suspicious Transaction Reports, since 2003.

I think the general public would be a bit freaked out if they knew how much Revenue have visibility of, and similar to yourself I'm speaking from professional experience and not rumour or pub gossip.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950150#Comment_117950150

100% most people assume large cash transactions or suspicious must be reported. The net is actually huge and more and more driven by profiling.

Just in addition to my post on TCA 1997, further powers were granted by the below SI in conjunction with TCA 1997 and the Finance act 2012.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/324/made/en/print

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950060#Comment_117950060

I can't remember where I read it , but a small amount of "black economy " transactions is often good for an economy, kind of keeps things moving in a small way -

wether that still applies in increasingly cashless society I don't know -

I suppose from a crime point of view it's much harder too -nonpoint in selling drugs with a sum up machine - and much harder to hide disguise/ launder large amounts of cash if everyone is using cards ..

Fishdoodle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950126#Comment_117950126

😅 …. and yes, I could’ve bought a coffee, sandwich etc …but I hadn’t time to research his dietary preferences.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950150#Comment_117950150

The digitalised background data , around use of money has plenty of benefits for sure, though a little creepy how much info can be gleaned -shopping habits, times, location. Pros and cons.

If data infrastructure crashed (via hacking/power outage etc) …handy to have cash … or then barter 🙂

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950130#Comment_117950130

I was not aware of any of that... I thought a person need be a criminal or dodging taxes before revenue got involved in personal stuff...

Padre_Pio

On the subject, websites like Amazon have amazing algorithms to match your spending habits to certain products.

Say you splurge in March each year, Amazon may assume you get a bonus in that month and push ads for more expensive items. It gets even more invasive when you factor in data from Echo or other Amazon products, who track when your get up, come home from work etc.

Strumms

I know two business who do not accept cash, only debit/credit card or account and one of those I’ve worked for myself the other I’m a regular client of now...

so yes it’s legal. The one I’m a client of now is a fitness business so no ‘walk’ up trade you need to be an accepted member....everybody knows the deal and books sessions online, pays for membership online. They won’t under any circumstances accept cash..

the other business was a logistics business remotely located in an industrial facility and single transactions went from around 50 euros to multiple thousands.... hours of operation were about 19 hours out of 24 even if the front desk was just 8-8 there otherwise were people around so even with safes etc... counting, moving and securing that amount of cash....wouldn’t be without risk.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950264#Comment_117950264

Nope, it's a common misconception tbh. As @tdf7187 has said many would be surprised if they knew the actual granular detail Revenue have at hand without any criminal concerns or warrant.

tdf7187

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950264#Comment_117950264

Define criminal, or for that matter dodging taxes. A huge % of the Irish public were evading taxes in the 1980s (DIRT, offshore accounts etc). The reason they did so was that it was at that time the only way to make a decent living in Ireland, outside of the state sector. Of course, some took it too far, including the then Taoiseach. Corruption starts from the top down, not the bottom up.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949079#Comment_117949079

I'm well aware of how people are paying these days. Many are using tap but not everyone is or indeed wants to.

My comment was not from the point of view of someone who doesn't realise that people like to tap, it was more from a business perspective.

As I said, I see benefits in terms of cash handling and security but from what I've seen of walk in retail, you will lose some custom with this policy plus (and I'm being realistic here) many cash handling businesses will be under declaring income. This card only business will be returning the most correct tax return in the history of the restaurant business. That's great but as a business, it's difficult if not on a level playing field with the shop next door.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949089#Comment_117949089

I am far from the flush of youth aswell but cannot remember the last time I paid for something in a shop or restaurant with cash. The only time I use cash at all is to pay our cleaner and I am trying to get her to get going on revolut

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950410#Comment_117950410

Thankfully thats in the distant past... nothing dodgy happens in politics these days...

Creamy Goodness

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950454#Comment_117950454

and from a business perspective they could say no cash/card, only turnips. they won't last long but there's nothing stopping them if they wanted to.

It really is no surprise that when I read the title I thought it was going to be a coffee shop involved. The amount of coffee shops in my county that open and close down every few months is laughable and the number of them that did not accept cash is quite noticeable. Coffee shop owners seem to think they are the next Starbucks or Costa but then they make such savvy business decisions like not accept cash. Such a brilliant business principle.

cbreeze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949154#Comment_117949154

My local charity shop only takes cash!

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950652#Comment_117950652

It's idiotic really. You start a walk in retail business and create a policy that turns away customers.

Sure, you can set up to encourage card payments but to turn good custom away is nuts really.

L1011

Cash handling is expensive. If you get very few cash transactions it is exceedingly expensive per transaction

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950652#Comment_117950652

Food business always opened and closed quickly when we only had cash. IIRC the failure rate for cafe, restaurant etc was around 60%.

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951135#Comment_117951135

I wonder how many of these places that don't accept cash will survive. What percentage of people don't use card? You are basically alienating them and sending them to your competitors.

Fair enough if you are the only coffee shop in town but the amount of coffee shops, trailers etc in my home town after opening is rediculous. There will be a fair thinning out of them in the coming winter.

Caranica

Why has nobody mentioned that cash is filthy? The reason places stopped taking it was Covid and most places won't go back to taking it because it's so much easier not to. Nothing to do with trends, just basic practicalities.

Darc19

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951151#Comment_117951151

It's not. It's 0.45% whether you lodge €100 or €10,000.

It might take a few minutes to drop into the bank and make the lodgement.

But ridiculous for any business to effectively refuse a particular cohort of customer.

L1011

Add the cost of buying coin and the cost of the time dealing with the bank - particularly as many branches are cashless. Time isn't free, and it's a lot more than your "few minutes" even for those located beside a branch still taking cash

If cash customers do not make up enough trade to cover the costs of handling them businesses simply won't.

Ginger83

Their decision to lose custom, just shop elsewhere

El Tarangu

I find it peculiar how some people in the thread seem to take a business's refusal to accept cash as some sort of grievous personal insult... Anyhow, as another poster pointed out, it's all going in one direction: the last time I was at my local pub at home, pre-Covid, no-one under 30 was paying with cash. The barman was already holding up the machine for you to tap your Revolut card on when you went up to pay - much quicker for the staff this way. As opposed to taking a banknote, going to the till, typing in the value of the banknote, counting the change, bringing it back over to you, etc.

SteM

A friend went into a place in kildare street last week and ordered a toasted croissant and a coffee. When he went to pay he was told card only, but he explained he had lost his card and was waiting on a replacement. They took the food and drink and threw it in the bin.

Such a waste.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952473#Comment_117952473

Agreed however having a till/float and managing same isn't free. Card charges are minuscule these days so if the odd customer cannot be catered for then so be it. I'm sure if people were walking away in their droves then hipster coffee shops specializing in Kopi Luwak would accept cash.

Creamy Goodness

Also have to add in the cost of having a safe to hold cash whilst waiting to bring to bank to lodge. Having cash on premises will affect insurance prices too.

im not advocating for cashless business I can just understand why some would choose not to

martingriff

I can understand it and I am not going to get in a huff if it is that way or all cash as I think either are likely to fleece or evade tax but in saying just been all one will stop a load of customers not just the older people but kids or teenagers with no card

Pawwed Rig

Place near me stopped taking cash as their staff were subjected to 2 robberies at knife point. No cash on premises = safer work place. Anyone with a bank account now has a debit card by default right? So I cannot see too many being indignant about it.

Cash is going away. Embrace the future

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950067#Comment_117950067

But the restaurant would need to state their conditions for payment at the time the contract is formed - i.e. when you order the meal. They can't wait for part-performance of the contract - you've ordered, they've served, you've eaten - and then introduce a contract term that stipulates card payment only.

What happens if they have prominent signs up saying "Card only!" but you, being the inattentive type, fail to notice them and only discover when it comes to settling the bill, and you've only got cash on you?

You offer them the cash, obviously. They may accept it. If they do, they are not obliged to make change, so make sure you have the right cash on you.

If they don't accept it, you walk out without paying, leaving your name and address. They can sue you for the cost of the meal. They will win. That judgment creates a debt, and they cannot refuse cash in settlement of the debt (but, again, they can refuse to make change).

Caranica

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953075#Comment_117953075

Revolut do a kids card now