Backup electrical power

funkey_monkey

Hi,

Parents are looking to put some back up electrical power into their home. They had intended to use a generator but I'm not convinced that it is the right solution for them as it would mean walking out to garage, pulling generator out towards doorway, connecting into socket, operating transfer switch and then starting via pull cord.

For all the time that electrical power goes out and duration, then I think it is a waste of money. However, it got me thinking about the feasibility of obtaining a few electric car batteries and maintaining them on trickle charge for such a scenario. This would mean that they could have the transfer switch inside their house and just switch over without having to through the above process.

Has many people done this and is it a feasible solution? There is no solar installation at the property and no plans for such.

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058210213/backup-electrical-power

Batteries can only store DC power, the house circuit is AC

You would then require an inverter

RainInSummer

What's their expectations from a generator?

Just enough to power the fridge and lights and TV/internet and boiler? If as you say they rarely lose power and only then for a few minutes it would be overkill. If they suffer longer outages, especially in winter then I'd go with a 3Dgenerator.

Despite not liking petrol knocking about the place I'm a proponent of generators. Mine is on a sheet of ply just a bit larger than it, 2x1 around the edge to stop it sliding off. All 55kg of it is easy as pie to wheel about. 10 minute job to knock that little wheeled platform up.

Decent genny should be key start anyways.

You'll need a spark in to wire in the transfer so why not get a dedicated commando socket near where the generator is stored. Carbon monoxide precautions notwithstanding of course.

funkey_monkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930918#Comment_117930918

Yes, that would need to be factored in - more interested at this stage about whether car batteries can be used and if it is a feasible solution. If the cost is high, then IMO it would be best to forget about it or go full way and install solar panels or a micro turbine and supply excess into grid - as the cost/usage would be uneconomical.

RainInSummer

Solar panels can't work when the power is out.

The battery solution is feasible. Depends on how much and for how long they want to draw though.

As I said I'm not a fan of petrol, less so lead acid batteries.

funkey_monkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931067#Comment_117931067

Solar panels or micro wind turbine with a battery bank was what I was thinking of, but would be expensive.

funkey_monkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931024#Comment_117931024

Yes - just the basics.

What is a 3D generator - not heard that term and Google throwing up rubbish.

There is a commando socket installed, but it is outside the garage door, so generator would need to be wheeled over and connected. As they are elderly I would have thought to extend the transfer switch and the key start into the house, so they would not need to gout in bad/dark weather to start/stop the generator. The only flaw in this is the exhaust from the generator.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931067#Comment_117931067

I presume you mean that solar can't work due to potential sizing when the power is out? Because otherwise this is a new limitation on solar which the Trumponians must have recently invented.

10-10-20

Absolutely they can work during a power outage. I don't disagree.

RainInSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931223#Comment_117931223

Well what I mean is that you can't power your home from solar when the grid goes down. If you end up exporting to the grid while people are working on the lines for repairs etc then it won't end well for them.

That's why once the grid goes down the anti islanding protection kicks in for grid tied solar arrays, which are the vast majority of domestic installs.

And it's far easier to say that solar doesn't work when the power goes. Hope that is easier to understand.

Not sure what you mean by potential sizing or what Trump has to do with anything. At all.

RainInSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931199#Comment_117931199

I'm not sure how the 3D bit crept in. Phone keyboard and me conspiring to create a typo I'm afraid.

I just meant a generator. The good old fashioned fume and noise belching type.

If they are elderly then I guess it's not a great idea having them pull even a wheeled genny about. They're heavy beasts.

While it wasn't my area of expertise I used to work about large battery arrays for holding buildings until generators could power up and sync. One or two of the lads there replicated the set up at their homes on a domestic scale.

If you're going the battery route I'd look at rack mounted lithium stuff rather than lead acid. Much smaller and can be set up and forgot about. I think the threads over on the renewable energy forum would be a good start.

RainInSummer

Pylontech were the batteries I was thinking of. I think like a lot of things lately prices have risen though.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058165926/solar-pv-battery-options/p1

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931323#Comment_117931323

they can work, but its illegal for them to be connected to the grid during an outage, as there's a risk of electrocution to people working on the lines.

10-10-20

Thank you for clarifying this. I thought that there was an incoming-mains powered isolating breaker which resolved that issue by providing an air-gap during a fault. So that's not allowed, or does it affect the certification?

funkey_monkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931873#Comment_117931873

Thanks for clarifying. TBH I'm planning on doing nothing as the power only goes out unexpectedly for at most 1 - 2 hours. They are still in the mindset of the 70's/80's when an outage could last for most of the day.

In our area the network has become a lot more stable and crews are able to get things back up and going relatively quickly. At some stage in future I would like to install a renewable power source - probably solar. I've read that some people have installed a bank of batteries and a smart transfer switch which kicks in to batteries when the mains supply becomes disconnected. I think they would get more advantage if they could get their hot water supplied via the solar panels powering the immersion and excess to grid. I would install an emergency power light for them in hallway and main living room. They have a gas cooker hob - so those would be sufficient for them until power was restored.

Apiarist

If you have the money, you can buy an automatic LPG powered backup generator. For example, see https://standbygenerators.ie . No need to run to the garage to switch it on, no burnt petrol fumes.

RainInSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934401#Comment_117934401

No, just burned gas fumes.

I like the look of the set up all the same, spendy I'd guess.

rocjohn

frequent enough outages on our estate lasting approx. and hour.

I have read the area will be prone to more outages when a new data farm in the ESB catchment area goes live.

What are the best generators to buy (leaving aside any issue of expense for now) that will automatically activate when the mains go out?

Which would be better and safer,petrol or diesel?

Darc19

what are the reasons for wanting back-up.

Is it because the media have created stories about possible power shortages and they only read the headlines?

Two of the main gas powered generators were out of action for service that took a lot longer than expected. Both are coming back on stream. (Huntstown & Whitegate - 2 of the 5 biggest power stations)

Wind turbines have been weak as the weather has been so calm. that is changing tomorrow and normal service with gusty conditions will prevail. (the jet stream was above Ireland for the past couple of months allowing settled weather.)

I also would not get in the knots over a data centre. they will have sourced power with specific agreements from power generation companies including windfarms. Data centres also use about 20% less power in winter as almost 50% of their power requirement is used for cooling and lower temps mean lower need to use power

listermint

All of these setups are isolated from grid.

Whether solar or generator. They're would have to be an isolation switch turning off incoming mains and switching to the internal supply.

Im unsure why someone went down the route above of explaining solar wouldn't work without some synchronizity to grid that's just weird. No electrician is going to install anything like this without isolation switches. Some are automated most are not. It's a conscious manual effort to switch over supply.

Ultimately all are expensive options OP . And maybe weight up number of outages they've actually had versus say a stay in a hotel instead. :)

RainInSummer

Deisel is less likely to blow up in your face than petrol. Both will kick out carbon monoxide and other pollutants as will gas too. Gas periodically turns people's houses into car parks.

Deisel generators tend to be higher capacity but bulkier than petrols. Don't forget noise, a petrol or diesel engine will annoy you after a while.

Unless you can install a UPS with enough capacity to hold the house while the generator kicks in the house will suffer outages.

That standby site above looks interesting. I'd wonder at their pricing and what form the monitoring takes that they mention.

Key start genny with enough power output to drive your fridges, lights, router, TV and boiler will set you back about €500. That's all you'd really need to be honest.

Electrician to wire in the necessary socket and switch over is anyone's guess. Depends on the are and how complex the job is.

Apologies for the non structured info dump, but some things to consider.

rocjohn

interesting replies and thanks for the input to my questions above.

It seems generators are more trouble than they are worth if the media coverage of data farms is less believable as pointed out by Darc19

Would it be practically feasible to have batteries powered up by the mains and using an inverter to automatically kick in when an outage occurs or would this too be more trouble than its worth.?

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939406#Comment_117939406

For many people, the risk and impact of mains supply failure so low that they don’t need to invest in a backup power solution.

If you do decide it is necessary, a petrol inverter generator will still be the lowest cost long term and most flexible solution. I would suggest the use of alkylate petrol which is suitable for long term storage. Pump fuel has a tendency to gel up after a relatively short period of time.

The battery solution you describe is really a UPS. Practical & very effective, yes - but expensive and I would hazard a guess require quite a bit more maintenance expenditure over the years than your generator.

RainInSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938057#Comment_117938057

Because someone stated a solar array would continue to power the house when the grid is down. It's in the thread. In English.

That's why.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117940827#Comment_117940827

It can. If it's compliant with installation requirements. To say it can't is not accurate.

That's why.

MAULBROOK

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117940827#Comment_117940827

The Solar panels will shout down in a power failure but the battery back up will/can put out 3kw.

I only wired it in this year and it worked out very well. It could run a 3kw kettle no problem.

RainInSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117940940#Comment_117940940

I'm not going to argue with some rent a curmudgeon. You're wrong.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941493#Comment_117941493

Removed comment as I've no time for people who are spoiling for a nonsense. Enjoy your weekend synchronising your solar array to the grid.. or whatever ...

Ubbquittious

"rent a curmudgeon" 😂😂😂