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National Development Plan 2022-2030

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Comments

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Btw, keep this for non road discussion only. Thread forthcoming in the Roads forum.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,262 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Wouldn't it be better just to have a single thread for the NDP for discussing all aspects of it? The theme of this NDP is likely to be which projects made it at the expense of others, and probably whether certain public transport projects made it at the expense of certain road projects, or vica versa.



  • Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭ densification


    This quote is from the email sent to me by (on behalf of) Paschal Donohoe after I emailed him re MetroLink reported delay.

    I can confirm to you that the Government will be launching the revised National Capital Development Plan, incorporating a capital investment programme in public transport of approximately €35bn, up to 2030 prior to the Budget which I am due to announce on October 12th next.

    Where's that money going?

    My own estimates:

    MetroLink €4bn, BusConnects Dublin €2bn, Dart+ €3bn, Dart+ Tunnel €2bn, Lucan Luas €1.5bn, Luas Finglas + Poolbeg €1bn, Cork Luas €1.5bn, Regional BusConnects €1.5bn, Navan Rail €0.5bn

    So that's €17n.

    So the other €18bn? What I want done that isn't currently being planned.

    Four tracking Northern Line to Drogheda (yes, all the way). €2bn

    Building a spur from Clongriffin-Airport. I'd continue this line to Naas via Leixlip LB, Maynooth, Clane and Sallins. Creating a regional rail alternative to the M50 and connecting Dublin's largest commuter towns. It's mostly through fields with no mountains or major obstacles in the way (apart from the airport). €1.5bn

    Spur from Maynooth to the Heuston Line (tie in 1km west of Adamstown). All IC + commuter trains go to Heuston. €0.25bn

    Four tracking Cork line from Hazelhatch to Kildare town (Cherryville Jnctn). Grade seperating Cherryville. €0.75bn.

    Double tracking to Carlow, Galway and Longford.

    Navan to Drogheda line reopend to passengers + station at Duleek.

    Electrifying all Double or more track rail lines. 200km/h line speed.

    Grade seperating and remodelling Limerick Junction so non-stopping trains don't have to slow down.

    Removing curves from rail lines: €1bn and remove as many as possible.

    BusConnects spines upgraded to BRT with all door boarding on articulated trolley buses.

    Dublin to Cork/Belfast/Galway fleet of pure electric 25kV trains. Overhead electric + Battery for rest of intercity fleet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,429 ✭✭✭✭ Cookiemunster


    Never mind I read the headline wrong.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    densification, while I don't think it is all likely, that is a pretty awesome wish list. And if the money was available, I think it would actually be quiet a doable wishlist. It builds well on existing infrastructure and plans and there isn't anything too off the wall.



  • Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭ JohnnyChimpo


    At the risk of being too cynical if you take that initial ~€17bn of already hypothecated investment, you can probably double it to account for delays and cost overruns and then you get most of the way to 35



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭ snotboogie


    Cork Suburban Rail is a quarter of a billion but it seems pretty ambitious for 8 new stations, electrification, dual tracking to Midleton etc, it will come to about half a billion when all is said and done imo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,262 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Isn't there a decent wedge for Cork suburban rail coming from Europe, presumably that is on top of what the government puts up in the NDP.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,262 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Is NDP money Capex only or does it include Opex over that period too? I'm sure specific project allocations are Capex only but the overall funding envelope might include Opex too.



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Semi state non exchequer investment is included. I’d bet on the EU funding being part of that overall total



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    2018-2027 budget included overall TII national roads funding, everything. I presume the same applies here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,344 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    does that 35b include "active travel' or is that under another heading?



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,304 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine


    I think it's all of transport. I know it was reported as €35bn for public transport but that doesn't make much sense.

    Monday the 4th is confirmed. It'll be launched in Cork.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,304 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine


    Tomorrow's the big day.

    What are people's thoughts on DART Underground? I don't think it will get any money for construction but I think it will be funded up to planning application stage like Luas Finglas at least. I think we'll see a lot of projects funded for planning work only.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,601 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    I would assume that DART Underground/DART+Tunnel will have funding allocated for this new plan being unveiled for all to see from tomorrow. But the questions that will remain is how much funding will be allocated to it & where will the money come from to actually fund & build it? Those to me are the key questions that we want to see answered about DART+ Tunnel because again it does need to be both a project of real value from a financial pov & a practical and worthwhile pov in the longer term. Answers like this need to be sought when other things are added into the mix like housing which has provisions for it to be provided by the LDA to allow it build new housing around the lands of Inchicore Depot.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,304 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine


    My guess is that it'll be the same as the old NDP with one additional small Dublin project like Luas Finglas proceeding to construction, Cork Commuter Rail and Cork Luas projects brought forward, more money for walking and cycling and a few more rail projects funded for desktop work like feasibility studies, design, planning etc. The rest will be all roads. The 2:1 public transport spending commitment will be got around out by excluding all road projects based around an existing road which make up the majority of road projects and only including "new roads" like the M20 and Galway Outer Ring Road in the 2:1 calculation. They'll spend around €13.5bn on public transport, €17bn on roads and €4bn on walking and cycling (which will include a large % of BusConnects spending). The detailed breakdown won't be given and the larger projects won't have costs included.

    The feasibility study into high-speed rail from Cork to Belfast will be announced again to distract the media.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    I saw it confirmed somewhere earlier, 12bn on new PT and 6bn on new roads. 4bn on “walking and cycling” and 13bn on maintenance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭ jams100


    Your mad mate.

    This is Ireland there is not a hope in hell metro link with come in at 4B.

    It will likely 6B+



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,992 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    Anyone know at what time this is being published at?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭ MyLove4Satan


    Strategic Rail Review and Dublin Rail Plan bureaucratic spoofery all over again. As expected.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,992 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    This NDP is nothing other than a repackaging and reannouncement of the same projects that have been going on for years. Except this time it's even less clear what the timelines and budget being allocated to these are. Massively disappointing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,141 ✭✭✭✭ is_that_so


    That tends to matter less than the fact that there is one. anything can happen over the next decade anyway but it gives the impression there's a determination by the current government to do something. Now we just have to see how much of this stuff they actually manage to do. If they can even get half of it right it takes the wind out of SFs sails on housing, not the primary aim but a welcome secondary one from the perspective of the two large parties.  

    Noticeable too that SF are straight out of the blocks to complain about  it.




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    It's the same old ideas reheated. Very disappointing. I think they've been talking about an hourly service and reduced travel times on the Enterprise service since the late nineties.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,992 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    Metrolink has a date of completion of TBC. Imagine having a National Development Plan which includes the largest infrastructure project in the state's history and plonking a big "TBC" as the completion date. Loving the commitment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭ Murph85


    Probably better optics than the time it will actually be delivered, some time around 2084...

    As for high speed rail between Belfast and cork... jesus its a waste of ink even printing that comedy!



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,141 ✭✭✭✭ is_that_so


    Some of that is the purview of the Northern authorities, we've done the track part of it. There is a high speed Belfast - Dublin- Cork proposal in the region of €15bn.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,992 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    A high speed line from Cork to Belfast is just utter fantasy.



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