Older cars disappearing rapidly off our roads

BrianD3 · 28-08-2021 8:57pm #1

We don't have a howmanyleft.co.uk equivalent in this country but some reasonable assumptions can be made from the NCT stats for each year. I was only made aware of these recently

https://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Your-Vehicle/Your-Vehicle-/NCT-Statistics-/

E.g comparing the 2015 stats with the 2020 stats there is a massive decline in many cars in the bangernomics category. E.g..

Number of 2002 Ford Mondeos presented for a full test in 2015 was 1756

Number of 2002 Ford Mondeos presented for a full test in 2020 was 109

For 2002 Renault Lagunas, the figures are 1188 and 38 respectively.

C segment cars i.e. the Focus and Megane have a better survival rate in this period. Smaller engines so lower tax and insurance. I'm not sure how big the banger racing scene is in his country but that could be another factor in smaller cars lasting longer.

Edit: Covid may have been a factor in 2020 but not a huge one. The number of 2002 Mondeos presented for a test in 2019 was 206.

28-08-2021 9:02pm

Older cars really seem to drop off, now and again you might see a rare unabused type.

I was drving behing a Daewoo Matiz earlier, in some ways Id like to see one in good nick with low mileage.

Most cars here tend to get well used imo, passed on to whoever can afford them and used to their max as family cars throughout their life.

At a certain point, its not economically viable to keep them going or do the work thats required to keep them going imo, usually owners dont have excess space to store them even if the cars themselves are viable.

RandomViewer · 28-08-2021 9:08pm

The big tax stuff is getting scarce but there's plenty smaller older cars about,

Getting an 02 Mondeo or Laguna test ready would probably cost as much as buying a tested 08 one

shane b · 29-08-2021 3:42pm

As per an earlier thread there were 100,000 pre 2008 scrapped in 2020. A lot depends on whether the older cars are worth to the person to get repaired. Older cars can turn into money pits.

magicbastarder · 29-08-2021 3:46pm

I was drving behing a Daewoo Matiz earlier, in some ways Id like to see one in good nick with low mileage.

the worst built car i've ever driven was a matiz. i don't know if any could have survived.

saabsaab · 29-08-2021 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819481#Comment_117819481

Had a Matiz for a while thought it was ok. You don't see many older Saabs about anymore, like the 9000 or older model 93.

RandomViewer · 29-08-2021 6:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819621#Comment_117819621

The Saabs wouldn't have been big sellers to begin with , Matiz build quality would've been OK, had a Lanos back in the day,sound deadening could've been better but better assembled than the Kadett they were based on

L1011 · 29-08-2021 7:05pm

~100 (some 1999 will be Mk2) Mk1 Puntos NCted in 2019 - there were probably 100 in my town in 1999!

TWO original Pandas, and one is a 2001 so will be a Polish import.

29-08-2021 7:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819481#Comment_117819481

I think it was a quirky and odd car, I quite like seeing one survive, possibly it was awful to drive? I never did. The car I disliked the most an 08 kia rio, mainly because it was painful on my back, Id still like to see the odd one around the place though.

magicbastarder · 29-08-2021 7:20pm

so many (admittedly trivial) things went wrong with it. the seat adjustment mechanism failed twice (basically what was a bicycle brake cable snapped) so when you accelerated, the seat slid back and lifted your foot off the pedal, and the car came to a halt; or you braked, and the seat slid forward, burying your foot on the brake pedal and the car came to a halt. the rearview mirror kept falling off, the anti-theft device (basically a magnet in the key) kept falling out; i could go on...

magicbastarder · 29-08-2021 7:25pm

Number of 2002 Ford Mondeos presented for a full test in 2015 was 1756

Number of 2002 Ford Mondeos presented for a full test in 2020 was 109

there's quite a difference between a 13 year old car and an 18 year old car - as someone mentioned above, often with an 18 year old car, addressing an NCT fail would often be more than the car was worth.

also, as some insurance companies don't want to deal with 18 year old cars the insurance difference alone may make the car not worth holding on to.

this is the oldest mondeo i can find on carzone - €1k for an 18 year old car with 400k on the clock?

https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/ford/mondeo/fpa/202108035791466

bazz26 · 29-08-2021 9:24pm

It's only natural that there are going to be less 18 year old cars on the road compared to 13 year old ones. The older a car gets the more chance of it needing repair and at some point the cost of repairing it becomes uneconomical.

BrianD3 · 30-08-2021 9:22am

The decrease for the Alfa 156 is not quite as bad as I thought it would be. Probably due to having an enthusiast following. 156s that make it to 10-15 years old would have a reasonable chance of becoming survivors in the long term. Also, there are probably quite a number SORDed as it is the sort of car that people might hang on to with the intention of restoring it some day.

For all alfa 156s (1998-2007)

2015: 1293 cars were presented for an NCT

2019: 297 cars were presented for an NCT

Mk3 Mondeo and Laguna IIs won't have much of an enthusiast following until they approach vintage status. 13 year old examples in 2015 were probably on their last legs having had multiple owners and dogs abuse with "big engine" tax making them near worthless for anything except banger racing.

Unsurprisingly, similar age Toyota Corollas haven't declined as much and I'd say the Mk1 Yaris is better again due to having ongoing value as a starter car and runabout.

31-08-2021 11:35am

Jeez, had a beautiful ford ORION, beautiful car to look at / drive but did she break my heart?? Forever in the garage.....not suprised they dissappeared very quickly off the roads...... nightmare of a car

matrim · 31-08-2021 11:42am

Insurance costs can play a part too. I had a 2003 Megan until 2018 and couldn’t change insurer on it because no insurance company would take on a new customer with a car that old. I’ve heard of people having problems insuring even 10 year old cars

Sam Russell · 31-08-2021 12:55pm

There are three problems forcing 'old' cars off the road.

Motor tax for pre-2008 cars that carry high rates due to large engines, and post 2008 gas guzzlers that also carry high tax. Reform is the answer to this, reducing the tax as the car ages. High tax and lower values makes repair or scrap decision go towards scrap.
Insurers refusing to cover older cars just because they are considered too old. They should be required to cover these cars if the are legal on the road.
Poor maintenance causing the lack of maintenance to bite future owners when the parts break or wear out prematurely. Some of the fault for this lies with manufacturers who design in obsolescence so repairs are high cost unnecessarily. For example, requiring expensive subassemblies to be replaced in their entirety instead of repaired, or the requirement of special tools to do the work. Of course, the NCT could help more by requiring proof of adequate maintenance of vehicles being presented for testing.

Now an annual NCT for all cars, all years up to 40 years would be very unpopular, but could be a lower cost option to solve this. This is how some countries operate where NCT is like motor tax renewal. If insurers were obliged to insure cars that were fully maintained and had a full NCT history, then that would solve part of the problem.

Old cars that have been fully maintained should be of no greater insurance risk than a newer version of the same car. The most dangerous part of a car is the nut behind the wheel. However, older cars have a lower safety in a crash which should be bourn in mind.

magicbastarder · 31-08-2021 1:51pm

richard bruton's plan to have 1m EVs on the road in however many years probably depended on getting rid of all those older cars.

Montage of Feck · 01-09-2021 8:15am

Insurance industry reform hasn't gone near as far as it needs too. The unfairness of legally requiring a product but that product being made unavailable by a cartel is just wrong.

maestroamado · 01-09-2021 8:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831488#Comment_117831488

I expect there is a bit of collusion between the motor industry and insurance companies as a lot of insurance don't want cars older than 15/20 years.

NCT i was talking to a guy who works in one of the centres recently and he told me that some 171 cars that were presented this year for 1st test were failing same, i did not ask and he didn't say detail...

Padre_Pio · 01-09-2021 8:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817101#Comment_117817101

Old cars are dirt cheap in Ireland, especially pre-08 cars in a high tax bracket.

For most, it doesn't make a lot of sense to put €300 into keeping a €1000 car on the road, and €300 is probably the minimum cost of parts/labour for a small job. We don't have a culture of car maintenance, unlike the US or to a lesser extent the UK.

RandomViewer · 01-09-2021 7:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831657#Comment_117831657

A lot of people use the test as maintenance, give it a wash,pay €55, see the minimum needed Hunky Dory till the next test

Montage of Feck · 01-09-2021 9:36pm

The Irish "motor industry" what a cod! If nobody ever bought a new car ever again the effect on the economy would be negligible at worst.

L1011 · 02-09-2021 7:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831516#Comment_117831516

You'd expect some to fail - plenty are going to go in with bald tyres or other wear related failures that they didn't notice / check for. Maybe a bit less so in the next few years as a lot of cars have racked up much less mileage in 20/21

odyssey06 · 02-09-2021 7:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827833#Comment_117827833

One of the reasons why they stopped covering older cars was because of scammers buying the cheapest oldest car they could find and being 'crashed' into.

That was a genuine problem, but could have been easily dealt with by offering it ony for customers with good NCDs.

This has been used as pretect to stop insuring older cars full stop.

Sam Russell · 02-09-2021 10:21am

The scammers angle cannot be that significant because if it was it would get more prominence in the media.

However, the insurance companies try anything on to increase premiums as in dual pricing. They Central Bank should take a more active role in making sure they do not rip off their customers, but that is not likely to be effective. There needs to be more policing of drivers who are on the road uninsured, unlicensed, unaccompanied learner, or driving while banned from driving.

A driver banned from driving should be facing a custodial sentence at least for the second offence. Seized vehicles should become the property of the state or be crushed.

Age of the vehicle should not be a factor for insurance.

MacDanger · 02-09-2021 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058206307/older-cars-disappearing-rapidly-off-our-roads

I think for a valid comparison, the figures you should be looking at are:

Number of 2002 Ford Mondeos presented for a full test in 2015 was 1756

Number of 2007 Ford Mondeos presented for a full test in 2020 was 1049

For 2002/2007 Renault Lagunas, the figures are 1188 and 66 respectively

I think your overall point still stands though

Sam Russell · 02-09-2021 10:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117837281#Comment_117837281

You need to take account of the number purchased in the relevant years, plus some idea of how many were imported second hand.

Your point stands though.

BrianD3 · 02-09-2021 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117837281#Comment_117837281

By 2007 the Laguna Ii was on its last legs (and had acquired a rep for unreliability) with the Laguna III arriving late in the year in time for the January 2008 market. So there were probably a small number of Lagunas sold in 2007. The Mondeo Mk4 also arrived in 2007 but earlier in the year so the new model had a chance to generate some sales before the end of the year

Also, there may have been a general move away from D segment cars at this point with cars like Qashqai etc. starting to take over

maestroamado · 02-09-2021 7:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117836532#Comment_117836532

It wasn't bald tyres he said mechanical failure and he was surprised how many of 4 year old cars in obvious condition failing because of dodgy bits...

RandomViewer · 07-09-2021 4:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839455#Comment_117839455

One of the most obvious things I've noticed lately is newer SUVs with bad tyres, is it a PCP thing, zero maintenance?

Padre_Pio · 07-09-2021 8:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117859516#Comment_117859516

Wonder if they tyres themselves are bad.

Watched a video recently, where new motorbikes were sold with substandard Pirelli's made in their Brazilian factory, while the proper ones are made in Germany.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv97i_-V7hA&t=383s

the_amazing_raisin · 07-09-2021 8:14pm

I still see a good few 00 to 09 regs around, I guess city cars don't see as much mileage so don't fail as often

I think it comes down to a combination of resale value versus the cost of repair. If a 02 car suffers a major breakdown, the cost of repairing it is probably more than the car is worth. If you're being asked for €2000 to pay for repairs, then maybe you'd start looking for a cheap car that's a bit newer for a similar amount of money

There's also been a few scrappage offers over the last few years that probably made the owners of those older cars decide it was time to upgrade. Combine that with much cheaper car finance and it makes buying a new car more feasible

saabsaab · 22-09-2021 8:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860476#Comment_117860476

I get the economics of it but it seems a shame in some cases to scrap a almost perfectly good vehicle for the sake of a few hundred. Maybe we should be looking at putting an electric conversion into some. Generate work locally etc.

RobAMerc · 22-09-2021 8:41pm

I think what folks forget is the governments policy on motoring seems almost entirely written by the SIMI - who we know isnt going to design it suit or protect the consumer. So pretty much all of the policies are designed to extract cash out of your pocket. NCT, Road Tax reform, scrappage scheme are all designed to force you to buy newer ( cleaner 🙄 ) cars. Insurance companies too are pitching in to push people to buy newer cars by making the insurance on older cars impossible to get - possibly in return for not having to push through proper returns.

Either way, the intent isnt to do anything for consumers good. Its to make you purchase new, by making your old car unviable.

L1011 · 22-09-2021 8:45pm

Noticed an uncovered (albeit probably not recently) Proton sign on a closed dealer and poked around for stats. 11 left taxed in 2019 in Ireland!

Also noticed there were 51 Infiniti on the list - never knew they were even sold here and I'd never seen one. And of course I saw an Infiniti Q50 today, just like how I've seen multiple Ssangyongs (including multiple, different, Tivolis) since I wondered where they'd all gone.

Wibbs · 24-09-2021 7:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926408#Comment_117926408

Pretty much. The insurance industry is part of the wider financial industry and it's far better for them to get more people on finance. Plus it looks good for the government's books too. More tax coming in from new sales, economy looking better because more people feel confident to get into long term finance deals. It's all about driving consumption, while telling us that it's "greener".

An Ri rua · 25-09-2021 11:49am

The Green Party in Ireland are an insult to frugal people. Emissions my a*sé. What about the metal and plastics? Keeping older cars on the road, and servicing them properly, is the essence of frugal living.

Not consumption as Wibbs correctly points out.

Green sh1tbirds.

MrCostington · 25-09-2021 12:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937095#Comment_117937095

I like the word 'frugal' - much nicer than poor (drive a '02 myself)! Agree with you both. Other countries give tax breaks to keep old cars on the road, but here it's all about the reg plate.

jmreire · 25-09-2021 1:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937259#Comment_117937259

Its all about extracting the maximum amount of cash as often as possible out of a captive population by the Banks, SIMI and the GOVT. I've lived in country's , and yes even EU countrys, who do not have such a draconian car system as there is in Ireland. Where the age is not a problem, once the NCT is passed, and as for Insurance......costs a fraction of what it costs here.

magicbastarder · 25-09-2021 7:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937095#Comment_117937095

eamonn ryan kept an old diesel on the road till recently for this very reason.

An Ri rua · 25-09-2021 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939136#Comment_117939136

Its his political accomplishments which are in question, not his private ones.

The outlandish tax on old cars which some people have owned for years is immoral.

magicbastarder · 25-09-2021 10:15pm

how old?

ba_barabus · 25-09-2021 10:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939837#Comment_117939837

2014

Wildly Boaring · 25-09-2021 10:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939536#Comment_117939536

Well the tax on pre 08 cars never actually went up.

That was the going rate before the 2008 greens.

magicbastarder · 25-09-2021 10:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939843#Comment_117939843

you know the age of the car of the person i asked?

magicbastarder · 25-09-2021 10:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939852#Comment_117939852

yeah, the funny thing is that the value of a lot of old cars actually plummeted because of the changes brought in when the greens were in government, because tax on those cars was so much higher than before the greens were in power - but now those old high taxes are their fault, somehow.

the greatest trick FFG pulled has been somehow to visit their unpopular decisions on the green party.