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Any other women here vote NO for the 8th?



  • Routine, and no big deal? Maybe that's how you see abortion.

    Anyone I know that's had one, it was a very big deal for them, and certainly not routine.

  • I agree that public masturbation ans public nudity should be illegal because it impacts others. So the control overy your body argument is irrelevant, glad you agree.

    Similarly you should then agree that control over your body with regards to abortion is irrelevant to the debate because those who oppose abortion believe that the unborn are impacted.

    So it is pointless talking about control over your body with those who oppose abortion. The key point of difference is whether the impact on unborn deserves consideration.

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  • Likewise neither is abortion for reasons I explained.

  • If you are debating with those who oppose abortion then yes, "bodily autonomy" is irrelevabt. For a start they could argue in response for the bodily autonomy of the unborn.

    The key point of difference is whether the unborn deserves protection. Bodily autonomy is irrelevant if you think it's wrong to end the life of the unborn.

  • Key point of difference... with what, exactly? It's pretty much impossible to understand your points. So:

    1. Are you satisfied with the state of legislation in Ireland? Why or why not?
    2. Are you a woman and did you vote on the 8th? If you don't mind, share with us your vote, yes or no, and your reasons why.

    The thread was asking (in a trollish way, by someone masquerading as a woman), whether women voted against repealing the eighth. This was an amazingly dumb question - some did. There are still nuns, for example, in Ireland and I'd take a guess they voted against repealing the 8th

    Unborn is a propaganda term. The term you're looking for, is foetus. Once the foetus is removed from the womb, it becomes a baby. Hope that helps.

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  • Ok. From my understanding, you think bodily autonomy is irrelevant when being relevant is inconvenient.

    If that's the case, I can see where you're coming from. But I don't understand why the hell you'd vote to repeal the 8th. The 8th took away bodily autonomy, i.e. the very thing you think is irrelevant.

    Each to their own I guess.

  • I voted yes to repeal, I believe abortion should be legal and at the discretion of the Mother in the first trimester.

    I believe the "bodily autonomy", "control over my body" argument is nonsense.

    The key point of difference on this topic comes down to whether tou believe the unborn should have the right to life, or deserves protection.

    If you believe the unborn, at a particular stage of pregnancy has a right to life then the control over your body arguement is irrelevant. The only point worth debating is whether the unborn should have the right to life.

  • Back to what the OP said, "it will be used as a form of contraceptive" that is so unlikely it doesn't even need consideration! (I'm sure there are one or two out there that would, but that is an extreme minority.

    I have had two miscarriages in the past year, yes I know it's different but medically I don't know if it is all that different. I have had a d & c which has to be pretty much the same experience as an abortion operation, going into hospital, under general anesthetic and waking up confused and dazed, possibly needing a few days off work. I know I did anyway I was in physical along with emotional pain (which I can assume most after an abortion would feel even if they did choose it).

    My 2nd one I took no intervention, they offered me tablets to induce labour, which I would think are v similar to abortion pills, but I didn't trust that doc (she messed up blood results) so said I'd wait. I didn't have to wait long. If those pills would have just had a quicker affect of what I went through (which I think is what they do) it would put anyone off wanting them again. Very v painful and fairly traumatic with out being graphic!

    I've had one very good friend in secondary school and two acquaintances have abortions. I only really know about how the friend felt, it was a really hard decision that she didn't take lightly. The others similarly had to make hard decisions (they told me after a few drinks in college) both young and told with out a doubt that they would be single mothers. But the friend anyway I know took contraceptive very very seriously after that! And has gone another 14 years without an unplanned pregnancy, one of those other girls has a baby now (planned) but from the looks of it she went a good decade without another unplanned pregnancy so she also took contraceptive very seriously after.

    I can tell you if the pain of an abortion is even similar to the pain of miscarriage NO ONE would chose it as their form of contraceptive!!! Taking a pill/ using a condom versus regardless of which you choose a procedure which between booking, having, recovery, follow up would take maybe two weeks.

  • And the big takeaway from that outline legislation, the thing that most debate focused on, was that abortion would be available without restriction/on demand/request up to 12 weeks of pregnancy. Anyone who was aware of that but genuinely believed there would only be a handful of abortions per year in Ireland under those terms, well I'm afraid 'naive' is far too polite a term for them.

  • You're understanding is incorrect. Can you provide an example where I think bodily autonomy is relevant, and where I think it's irrelevant to highlight inconsistency?

  • If a woman's have control over her own body (like you as a male do) then why did you vote to repel the 8th?

    and why is termination ok, in your mind in the first trimester?

  • Why should I provide an example of anything? You don't even appears to understand what bodily actually is.

  • I think the well being of society is better off with abortion being legal, children in broken homes or living in poverty tend to be bad for society overall. Abortion gives society a chance to reduce such cases where the child does not have the love or resources that it needs to thrive.

  • You haven't. When you talk about theft, it's obvious that you have some frame of reference that enables you to link theft with terminating pregnancies in your mind. That's fine, but repeating that is not the same as explaining what it is or why it is.

    Er, I've got the central point. The central point is that those who oppose abortion have a very effective way of carrying out their opposition - by not having one. And when they do that, their opinion and their action are both of the highest importance. Otherwise, they aren't pregnant, they aren't involved in the decision, and their opinion is of no value and in a reasonable and rational world should have no value.

    You also haven't explained what you mean by "protection". You might think you have, but you genuinely haven't. Protection from what?

  • I get what you're saying. Things were pretty grim, but not necessarily that linear. I may be incorrect, but AFAIK the sale of condoms was legal from the foundation of the State to the mid-1940s, for example. There was a general trend of liberalisation of attitudes from the late 1960s through the 1970s, but there was a real (albeit shallow) lurch back to social conservatism in the period after the 1979 Papal visit, which created the atmosphere in which the appalling 8th Amendment could pass.

    In historical terms, the 36th was passed only yesterday or the day before, so I wouldn't take comfort from the apparent absence of a game plan from the likes of Iona. I was there when the 8th was triumphantly passed, and its opponents were completely clueless and rudderless for many years afterwards. It took more than a generation to pass before the possibility of repealing the 8th really opened up, which is why I'm more inclined to look at societal swings and changes from a multi-generational perspective. I wasn't so inclined in the 1980s, but the older I get the more it seems to make sense to me.

    Would Ireland have modernised so quickly were it not for Bishop Eamonn Casey and Rupert Murdoch? That's a question for another thread, or several pints in the local boozer.

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  • Abortions are rare. in 2020 there were some 6,600 abortions carried out here, and there were some 56,000 births. That means that of those 62,600 pregnancies, about 10.5% were terminated. That's a low number, and it's also no higher than the numbers being carried out before the 36th was passed.

    (I'm not taking account of the significant number of pregnancies that ended in miscarriages. There isn't really a frame of reference to do that.)

  • I'm asking you again. Protection from what? Don't just parrot when you're replying. Think.

  • I think you have been far too kind in your analysis.

  • Perhaps but I usually like to START a new conversation with a new person assuming the best about them, not the worst, until they directly give me cause to do otherwise. Benefit of the doubt and all that :)

    Plus on this topic during the Referendum I got a lot of PMs on boards thanking me for my input and how I treated people during the debates. Even by people who were strongly and entirely against my position. So it seems treating them with that level of respect had very positive results. So I have tried to keep it up, even when instinct suggested doing otherwise.

  • Hello nozzferrahhtoo, lots of valid points in there, quite a bit I disagree with also.

    Much appreciation though for the effort and thought put into addressing my posts. I'll try to find time to reply to all, don't think I'll find time today though given the length of the post.

  • I usually start a conversation assuming nothing about people, all that matters to me is the argument being made. Nothing needs to be assumed about people.

    Post edited by Alberta64 on

  • True, but by "assume the best" I mean I do not jump straight to any conclusion that the person is a wind up merchant and I assume they will be engaging in the conversation in good faith, honestly and with basic decorum. Until given direct rather that vicarious reason to assume otherwise that is generally how I approach people in a conversation if I have never engaged with that person before.

  • So what exactly are you arguing about then?

    You voted to repeal? You agree with abortion.

    I'm not sure why you are arguing

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  • I'm not arguing, just having a discussion. I disagree with the "control over my body" and "bodily autonomy" arguments in favour of abortion. I'm in favour of abortion for different reasons.