Do Companies Have The Right To Fire Unvaccinated Employees?

JupiterKid

I see in the news this morning that CNN, one of the biggest global news networks, had fired three of its staff for not getting vaccinated for Covid-19, as employees in the network and elsewhere begin to return to their workplaces from home working.

Article here:

https://www.rte.ie/news/us/2021/0806/1239319-cnn-covid/

Personally, I am fully vaccinated and I understand the policy of CNN from a public health perspective (protecting their other employees etc) but could the employees who do not wish to be vaccinated have a right to challenge their dismissal if they can fully work from home, thus not placing their colleagues in any danger?

Can employees for a given company be fired for refusing to be vaccinated? Can and will this happen here in Ireland also?

BailMeOut

They were not fired for being unvaccinated, they were fired for coming into the office unvaccinated. There is a big difference.

chrissb8

Whenever these types of things pop up remember the laws to being fired in Ireland are far more robust than in America. Where literally they can pretty much make up a reason to fire you if they want you out.

It certainly is a grey area though, considering premises are operating on a vaccine cert being presented upon entry. It Hardly will work if employees at said places won't get the vaccine. I think there will be roadblock after roadblock put up for employees without the vaccine, that is, they may have to present proof they are not infected every week. Wearing people down until they lost patience and just get the vaccine so they can get on with their lives.

L1011

In Georgia, where this likely happened, they have the right to fire anyone for anything more or less. "At will employment"

glen123

Here there is more detail on how things stand in Ireland:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/staff-who-refuse-the-covid-jab-cannot-bekept-out-of-workplace-40529717.html

seamus

The United States is a different kettle of fish. Employees are little more than slaves to capitalism, in many cases they can be fired without reason and without notice.

Employees in Ireland cannot be fired for refusing a vaccination. But that doesn't mean employers can't do anything about it. Think of vaccination a bit like being certified to operate a piece of machinery.

If your role now requires - either legally or otherwise - that you are certified to operate the piece of machinery, then company can insist that you get the certificate and keep it up to date. If you refuse to get certified or to keep that certificate up to date, then they can choose to either relocate you to another role where the cert is not required, or they can make you redundant. They do not have to create a new role for you - if there are no roles available, they can make you redundant and hire someone else to fill your spot.

The same would apply here with vaccination. The company would need to show good reason why vaccination is now necessary, but ultimately if you refuse to get vaccinated and there is no role by which you can continue to be employed, then they can let you go.

Just because it may be possible to work from home, doesn't oblige the company to convert your role to a 100% remote one. The company justification in these cases will always be that it is a necessary part of the role to meet with colleagues face-to-face on a regular basis and therefore the role cannot be made 100% remote.

Jim Root

smart companies won't fire these people but they will subtly manage them out instead

BailMeOut

if an employee started smoking in an office they would be fired for smoking in the office and not because they are a smoker.

Donald Trump

If an employee started **** in the office they would be fired for **** and not because they are a wanker.

And don't be expecting the Union to back you up on it. Bastards take my dues for years and then the one time you need them ..........

(Strange how the swear filter blocks out the -ing but not the -er version!)

If your job requires you to be vaccinated to do (public facing),they probably can id say

People who can entirely work from home it seems harsh beyond belief,

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714730#Comment_117714730

Not America, but particularly USA. There are mire countries in both Americas, and each of them may have slightly different legal approaches. Need to be more specific as America is not even a country's name.

growleaves

Unless the law is changed your employer cannot ask you if you've been vaccinated. See the link shared by glen123. Legal experts and the Data Protection Commissioner have said so.

Most of the answers on this thread are pure wrong. I think people here are just saying what they would like to see happen.

If the laws are changed, which they could be, then yeah. But right now? No.

Strumms

Your terms of employment are your contract...

i don’t think any company foresaw even the slightest chance of a pandemic so there wouldn’t be a vaccine clause but I’d say most contracts have.... “ you are forbidden from participating in behaviors likely or possibly that could cause a risk to the health of colleagues, contractors or customers “... it could be dependent on how that is understood or interpreted.

ceadaoin.

The vaccine doesn't stop people catching and transmitting covid though so not sure how this rationale makes any sense. Any human contact is a risk, vaccinated or not. For that reason vaccine passports and mandates are completely pointless. But I don't expect any common sense or rational thinking at this stage. People are too far gone

"Our vaccines are working exceptionally well," Walensky told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "They continue to work well for Delta, with regard to severe illness and death -- they prevent it. But what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/index.html

it's literally on their own website lol

Timistry

In Ireland, no! Even to ask is a GDPR issue

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117715089#Comment_117715089

I would imagine in most places, unless they are a waste of space, management would prefer to ask them what they were thinking, and issue a warning if they are apologetic.

It may look to Irish eyes that this CNN story promotes vaccine uptake. But given the devisive nature of US politics, I don’t think it helps at all. E.g. all the silly arguments over masks in the US. Especially given CNNs more political stance in recent years, aping Fox News from a Democrat perspective.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/fox-news-cnn-change-evolution-2010-2019-11%3famp

Kerry25x

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718470#Comment_117718470

I work in healthcare, they do ask and are redeploying unvaccinated staff away from high risk patients.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718467#Comment_117718467

With delta, the chances of becoming infected is lower when vaccinated, as is the time taken to clear the viral load, you were replied to as such on the covid forum when you posted something similar there, so not sure what you're doing here regurgitating bad information.

faceman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718467#Comment_117718467

Being unvaccinated is far riskier. Data from Spain - 92% of hospital admissions in the past month were unvaccinated or partially vaccinated.

The vaccines work. The data is there. Anyone denying the level of risk being between being vaccinated or unvaccinated is deluded

For the US, and it's culture of suing for just about anything, the measure makes sense, when considering insurance, and claims that might be made for being required to work in an unsafe workplace environment. While vaccines don't guarantee anything, they do lower the risk, and show that the business has sought to have a safe environment for employees. It won't be long before companies are sued for an employee getting covid from a fellow employee. The requirement on employees being vaccinated mitigates this risk.

As for remote working, it's just not practical for many jobs out there. And even when it is, it also brings a host of other problems. I've heard from friends who are managers in a variety of companies complaining about the drop in productivity, and quality of work by workers at home. Sure, some people are perfectly capable of working properly at home, especially in the short term, but as time goes by, laziness and other distractions kick in. For some industries/roles, working from home will continue, but I'm expecting alot of other businesses to require their staff to return to working from a premises where they can be managed directly.. along with the requirement that people be vaccinated.

This is the new reality. Anyone refusing to be vaccinated is going to face greater (as time goes by) consequences for their refusal.. and they have only themselves to blame for it. Just as we're all going to be facing the need to boost our vaccines to deal with new strains or other considerations that arise over the next decade. Just accept it and move on.

banie01

In the US employment law is quite fragmented.

In some states, the Employer can mandate vaccines in others the employer cannot. The idea of job security and employment rights that are common in Ireland and the EU are tbh, alien in much of the US.

Immediate dismissal, minimal paid vacation, zero benefits and worse are common over there.

A good baseline of the US situation is here;

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/employment-law/pages/if-workers-refuse-a-covid-19-vaccination.aspx

"If an employee refuses to obtain a vaccine, an employer needs to evaluate the risk that objection poses, particularly if an employer is mandating that employees receive a COVID-19 vaccine," Lomax said.

A vaccination mandate should be job-related and consistent with business necessity. Under the ADA, an employer can have a workplace policy that includes "a requirement that an individual shall not pose a direct threat to the health or safety of individuals in the workplace."

If a vaccination requirement screens out a worker with a disability, however, the employer must show that unvaccinated employees would pose such a threat. The EEOC defines a "direct threat" as a "significant risk of substantial harm that cannot be eliminated or reduced by reasonable accommodation."

BailMeOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718504#Comment_117718504

If there was a 'zero-tolerance policy' to smoking in the office you'd be fired.

chrissb8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718374#Comment_117718374

Seriously? You replied, to correct a colloquialism?

Alright.

mcmoustache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718470#Comment_117718470

How? GDPR relates to minimising the amount of data collected about a data subject to what is necessary and only as long as necessary as well as using that data only for the purposes that it was intended. There are other issues, sure, but I don't see how GDPR comes into play any more than that nonsense going around the US about asking being a HIPAA violation.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714733#Comment_117714733

Or more aptly "At will unemployment"

glen123

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40315115.html

"It's never been a requirement that employees or people have to tell their employers private medical information, and you'd want to have a really strong overwhelming public health case for that to change," Mr Varadkar said.

Risteard81

As this is not a recognised or licenced vaccine - but merely an emergency use only intervention - it absolutely would be completely and utterly illegal (and rightly so) to fire someone for declining to take it for any reason or none. Even if it was ever licensed it would still amount to further totalitarianisma and be completely and utterly criminal and indefensible.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721404#Comment_117721404

Of course it's defensible. Whether they'd succeed in defending it is another matter, and until we have such cases happen, there's little evidence to say one way or the other. If employees are notified in advance that the vaccine is mandatory for their continued employment, and given time to find alternative employment, then I suspect employers would get away with it. If it was done in a fair and open manner.

Anti-vaccine people are going to find themselves treated the same as smokers have been. Public opinion is not going to continue being sympathetic for those who refuse the vaccine, because they're easy scapegoats for the failures of the vaccines themselves, and just as easily, made into being unreasonable on/by the media. Perhaps we'll see regulations to ensure that those without vaccines aren't allowed within a few metres of certain buildings.. After all, there are many places where smokers aren't allowed to smoke. The health risk to the majority means that non-vaccinated people (as a minority) will be pushed outwards.

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721404#Comment_117721404

This is incorrect

All vaccines being used in Ireland are fully licenced. There is no "emergency use" stipulation

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721649#Comment_117721649

It's usually a sign that the person is getting information from US websites where the FDA has given emergency approval (full approval is expected to happen next month). Europe of course never used emergency approval.

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721649#Comment_117721649

Rubbish. It's a CONDITIONAL Marketing Authorisation. They are not licensed.

mcmoustache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721857#Comment_117721857

Is this why people think it would be a GDPR violation? As in they see people in the US say that it would be a HIPAA violation and grab the closest acronym?

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722088#Comment_117722088

It's the idea of private health data.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720204#Comment_117720204

Bad practise to defend it. The US already thinks being the number 1 country and in the centre of the map. Calling them the name of the whole two continents support their ignorance.

Potential-Monke

Well, if employers won't have a legal right to question employees about vaccine status, then that means employers can't guarantee a fully safe environment and will work for me in my fight to continue WFH! Noice.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721869#Comment_117721869

I wish people who don’t work in the industry wouldn’t confuse others like this. It’s ok to not understand this yourself, but spreading misinformation is not tolerable.

“Conditional marketing authorisation” is the terminology used to license vaccines for use. You are confusing terms. this process has been in place for about a decade, the process is not new. It’s also used for orphan diseases for example, where it is not possible to find enough patients for a trial. It uses a risk based approach. It’s been incredibly successful in this pandemic at supporting the vaccines which are clearly and demonstrably effective.

VinLieger

I think employers requirement to provide a safe working place for all their employees trumps individuals rights to access the office while unvaccinated.

However i dont think someone should be fired for this and i dont think its possible here unlike in certain US states that have at will laws.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719352#Comment_117719352

Current data says that a fully vaccinated person who experiences a breakthrough infection can spread the virus just as much as an unvaccinated person. The vaccinated should clear it faster but hardly matters if they are isolated. Source: https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/new-data-on-covid-19-transmission-by-vaccinated-individuals.html

Thus unvaccinated are more of a danger to themselves then them are to vaccinated.

Agis_IV

You won't be let go for this and if you are it will likely be a great day at the WRC for you.

mcmoustache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729231#Comment_117729231

Yes but GDPR relates to people who have data on you and what they're allowed to do with it. I don't see how that stops a company asking me if I've been vaccinated. It would be a GDPR issue if the HSE was just handing over that data but not if they just ask me.

Agis_IV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749755#Comment_117749755

This could be outdated, however it is worth a read.

https://www.dataprotection.ie/sites/default/files/uploads/2021-06/Processing%20COVID-19%20Vaccination%20Data%20in%20the%20context%20of%20Employment_0.pdf

irishguy1983

Pretty shocked at lack of knowledge here in terms of Ireland....100% can’t be fired or even be asked in Ireland....Would require constitutional change....There is a thing called right to body integrity in constitution in Ireland and also 9 grounds on discrimination....No idea situation in US....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749791#Comment_117749791

And the misinformation goes on. The Data Protection Commissioner issued guidance that strengthened the HSE position in relation to staff vaccination status. The commissioner ruled that employers can collect vaccination data in exceptional circumstances if having a jab was seen as a necessary safety measure.

mcmoustache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749772#Comment_117749772

Thanks for that. It's the most useful piece in information in the thread and I'd advise everyone to read it.

It's not conclusive but it at least considers questions on a reasonable footing.

mcmoustache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749791#Comment_117749791

The right to bodily integrity stops the State from doing things to your body against your will, like forcing you to take the jab. It doesn't stop people asking if you've had the jab.

irishguy1983

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749846#Comment_117749846

Exceptional circumstances.....A healthcare worker possibly at the moment but that’s about it....

irishguy1983

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749864#Comment_117749864

I wasn’t talking about employers asking you....I was referring to whether they can fire you or not...I am uncertain whether can ask you or not but currently most multinationals won’t - that is current situation anyway....Again 9 grounds are big here....

irishguy1983

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749846#Comment_117749846

Ahhhh....I see you copied and paste. You left out the bit ‘there is no clear legal basis for employers in general to collect the information....

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/no-avalanche-of-objections-by-hse-staff-to-revealing-their-vaccine-status-at-work-40655217.html

Agis_IV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749855#Comment_117749855

It is in line with the standard expected from the DPC; clear as mud.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750021#Comment_117750021

This contradicts your earlier post that an employee cannot be asked about vaccination status in Ireland, the DPC says otherwise. It would be up to employers in other sectors to convince the DPC that the data request is a necessary safety measure, if they do, then there is no constitutional barrier to that request.

It seems obvious to most that a general exemption to data relating to vaccination status would not apply, but that does not change the fact that you stated no employer is permitted to ask an employee about their status. Usually posters get asked for links to support their opinion, you saved me the trouble.

irishguy1983

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750080#Comment_117750080

I was more referring to being fired or not....Currently you DPC says you can ask people in ‘exceptional circumstances’. Be fair - that doesn’t cover 90% of us and you know it.....So to the 90% out there - currently you are fine and won’t be asked....Highly unlikely other sectors will push for it either considering it looks like 90% of us (maybe more) are getting vaccinated anyway....Another reason employers won’t push for this data is your role as data controller (you need to store, collect and manage data safely)....Secondly as an employer you don’t want do deal with discrimination case potentially based on you collecting data....