German Volume training. 10 x 10

obi604

Hi

Thinking of doing a round of german volume training, lost of websites out there,

can anybody recommend a programme?

its seems to be generally broke up as follows:

Chest and Back

Legs and Abs

Arms and Shoulders

From what I read, the key thing seems to be the tempo

Should the main compound exercises always be included. Bench, squat, deadlift

Patsy167

https://liftvault.com/programs/bodybuilding/german-volume-training-routine-spreadsheet-gvt/

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705790#Comment_117705790

Thank you Patsy.

Whats an alternative to the 'Low Cable Pull-in'

Black Sheep

You’re absolutely right that tempo is key, without it it is not going to work as well. It’s painful, but stick with the slow negatives.

obi604

Would this be the only thing you would do at a gym session or would you do running or core work before or after etc.

or is it that I’ll be totally shagged after doing this and won’t have much left for anything before or after it.

obi604

Also, just on the attached screen grab.

Silly question - Do I complete all of A1 first and THEN move on to A2 ?

italodisco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117706392#Comment_117706392

In that table you have push and pull exercises, for the sake of your nervous system I would advise you do push/pull/push/pull

If you do 2 chest in a row youll find it tough on the second chest exercise.

I did GVT a few years ago and didn't get much from it if I'm honest. A bit later I tried the Vince Gironda 8x8 routine and sweet jesus it hammered me BUT it gave me visual results.

With the GVT, if u feel yourself getting burnt out take an extra rest day. You'll more than likely have to. And don't aim for heavy lifts, it's not the right routine for going heavy.

Cill94

Worth noting that this programme was developed by and for advanced bodybuilders. Based on Qs you’re asking, it might be safer and more effective for you to follow something with less volume..

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117706939#Comment_117706939

noted. Just finished first session . Tough going but am keeping the weights at a manageable weight. Am f00ked actually :)

what do you recommend?

I have done some 5x5 in the past.

Cill94

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707002#Comment_117707002

5/3/1 or Greyskull are what I tend to recommend. 5/3/1 has the Boring But Big hypertrophy template, which might be more suited to your goals.

obi604

Would 8x8 be an option?

paw patrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117706939#Comment_117706939

GVT is one of those thing people rave about but I've never got much from it and neither has anybody I know.

not saying it's sh1te but it was sh1te for me

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707218#Comment_117707218

Actually, scratch that. Had a quick look and seems like carnage.

Augme

What are your goals? Strength/ muscle building/muscle endurance/entertainment/challenge/all of the above?

While all of the above is ideal it's worth having a clear preference for one over the other as it makes picking a routine that bit easier. If you are knew enough to weight training ever program will deliver the same.

I did GVT before and I wouldn't say I got anything out of it, but I loved the challenge of it without completely breaking me.

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707742#Comment_117707742

I’ve been going to the gym for the guts of 15 years. Not hardcore like some of ye boyos ;) but always tipping away at bench press, squats, trap bar, overheard press etc.

The aim is to improve my physique and loose the belly fat, not massive or anything but it’s there alright !!

ultimate aim is to have decent looking body, good arms, nice chest i.e. the beach body (I guess everyone and their dog would like this scenario )

Have no interest in being super strong or anything, just want to define a bit more

but to define a bit more you need to build strength :)

Augme

Might be worth just developing your own training routine then. Depending on how often you train you could do back & biceps, chest & triceps and legs and shoulders.

I

ncorporate the traditional big compound exercises for either 5x5 or 3x8 and then add supplementary exercises for 3x10-15.

Cill94

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707794#Comment_117707794

What weights would you be using on the major lifts?

Patsy167

A good Push/Pull/Legs split can make for a nice change from 5x5 strength programs if you are looking to change things up. Something like this - https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/37ylk5/a_linear_progression_based_ppl_program_for/

Eoinbmw

German volume training more suited to "supplemented" lifters!

Black Sheep

I think we’ve established GVT not likely to suit then.

If you’ve your focus is physique then based on what you’re familiar with you could look at something like 5/3/1 with a good amount of accessory work, or Westside For Skinny Bastards.

Keep the compounds you’re familiar with as main exercises and then plenty of assistance / accessory volume.

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708913#Comment_117708913

As in what weight am I able to lift?

Cill94

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710036#Comment_117710036

Yeah

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710236#Comment_117710236

fairly crap to be honest , bench 1rm is 90kg. squat about 110. deadlift: 120

I know the balance not great but those are my figures

obi604

im kinda confused now, good few things mentioned in the thread as below, but not sure which one to go with. I guess 1 and 2 are out and not sure which other one is best.

1. 10 x 10
2. 8x8
3. 5/3/1
4. Greyskull
5. 3x8
6. 5x5
7. Push/Pull/Legs split

italodisco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117711109#Comment_117711109

Just looking at those stats, and at the length you've been at the gym I would recommend going back to a strength 5x5 / stronglifts type programme and sticking it out.

Worth highlighting something important after reading what your goals are, DIET is key regarding body composition. I've been through it all over 20 years of training and competing, being natural and also dabbling with PEDS and the biggest changes came when I planned out my diet and stuck to it, really stuck to it.

I can't put it in words how hard it was to cut out ALL fast food / convenience lunches, it was a game changer. To this day I don't eat takeaway, butter, biscuits, no beer, wine, hi Gi fruits or veg, no white carbs as much as possible.

Haven't picked up a weight in a long time and still have 6 abs showing from 8.

italodisco

I have a ton of stuff somewhere on Google drive, ebooks, routines etc, all pay for stuff.

Pm me an email address and once I dig it all out I'll send it on if you like.

italodisco

Just a few screens to give you an idea of what I have, I've hundreds of paid for guides I'd be happy to share.

If there's enough interest I will add them to a Dropbox type host for download

Black Sheep

The Greyskull LP in there is definitely a good option, a bit of a linear progression for strength but can be modded for some physique add ons

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117712459#Comment_117712459

as you have highlighted, the key word in all of this is DIET. I could go to the gym twice a week for the next year but if the diet is not right it’s a complete waste. Diet is my weakness and I k ow it’s 80% of the battle. Your dedication In your 2nd last paragraph is serious unreal commitment to stick to that.

So I need to focus on diet

in saying all this, I might give the grey skull a try.

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117712482#Comment_117712482

Thanks a million. Which of the grey skull workouts would match the below scenario ?

“The Greyskull LP in there is definitely a good option, a bit of a linear progression for strength but can be modded for some physique add obs workouts would”

Black Sheep

The Greyskull LP is a three times a week full body program. The book / pdf has all the details, I would take up the rather generous offer there.

Cill94

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117711109#Comment_117711109

You’re not a beginner but you could definitely gain plenty of strength and muscle by just following any of the basic programmes we’ve mentioned and cleaning up the diet.

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117716400#Comment_117716400

yeah, my diet is the thing thats been killing me. so will rally focus on it

II will probably do the the Greyskull LP routine

obi604

Went to the gym tonight to get a feel for this Greyskull LP routine and to help me try and calculate my starting weights etc and get the hang of what the hell im supposed to do :)

So high level, seems 3 days a week

Day 1

a) Bench x5, bench x5, bench x5+

b) Squat x5, squat x5, squat x5+

Day 2

a )Overhead press x5, Overhead press x5, Overhead press x5+

b )Dead lift x5 + (seems no prior dead-lifts here)

Day 3

a) Bench x5, bench x5, bench x5+

b) Squat x5, squat x5, squat x5+

Silly Questions:

-Where do the 'plugins' fit. e.g. For day 1 would it be between a) and b) and then add another after b)

-For my goals (beach bod) what are the best plugins to do? And when?

-Do i need to focus on slow tempo here or just standard tempo

-For the '5+' what figure should this be , like if doing 13, is this too much?

-Downloaded the grey skull app. It has 90 seconds between each set if easy and 3 minutes if hard, I know just a default setting in the app, but is this an ok guideline to follow

Sorry for all the questions

Black Sheep

On the deadlift day remember that although you might only do one set, as you add weight each week that will eventually become very taxing. Adequately warm up on it first too, a number of sets.

For “beach bod”-

Appropriate tempo is always worth shooting for, and try to push the AMRAP last set.

On the AMRAP just push it, the number is what it is. If you got 13 it’s ok, if you got 20 starting weight you picked is too light, but it will all come out in the wash as you add weight.

90 seconds rest is fine early on.

For plug ins given your goals it is likely personal, where are you keen to add mass(?). The following list is what the Greyskull author offers:-

Curl variants 2x10-12

Row 2x6-8

Chins 2 sets (If weighted then 6-8)

Dips (As above)

Cable arm movements 2x10-12

You don’t do all of these, you choose 2-3 of them and you put them somewhere appropriate in your training week. If you pick a row don’t do it after your deadlifts etc

In Greyskull the philosophy is you really push whichever of these you do. On the curls if it’s only 2 sets then you would warm up on the curl first and then do 2 heavy (but with good form) sets, close to failure, and where you really really emphasise the negative. And you would try to keep progressing that.

Whatever the app is that’s fine but I would encourage you to read a book or breakdown of the program ideally.

Personally I always did biceps, a tricep movement, pull ups and the neck curls. I also ideally like more shoulder and back work but this is a linear progress and it’s not feasible to just keep bolting things on to it without sabotaging main lifts.

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718659#Comment_117718659

Thanks for that detailed reply.

I think I’d like to add a bicep and tricep in to the routine

to include these 2, where would I plug them in. Would I do each day with biceps and triceps or would they have a day on their own ?

Black Sheep

There are a few ways to do it.

You're obviously alternating your bench and press i.e your first week you bench twice with press in the middle, but your second week you press twice with bench in the middle (And squats and deads don't change).

So what a lot of people do is they alternate their assistance also, and put it in after the first big movement. So you might alternate chins and curls, as explained in the "Greyskull LP with arms" set out here ( https://www.powerliftingtowin.com/greyskull-lp/ ). The popular "Phrak's variant" alternates chins and rows, but not sure it's popularity is merited really ( http://i.stack.imgur.com/OUcEY.png ).

It's several years since I did Greyskull ... I think I did the alternating chins and curls BUT I also threw in a couple of sets or a rest/pause set of tricep extensions on the curl days. If you do curls for big aesthetic arms, then direct tricep work is hard to beat for achieving that goal.

Must admit that now I always put my accessories at the end, I wouldn't sandwich them in between the compound movements. I can't remember if Greyskull had a rationale for that to be honest.

obi604

Thanks again black sheep !!

How does the below look as a start

I’m not sure how many sets and reps I should be doing for c) and d)

**Week 1**

Day 1 

a) Bench x5, bench x5, bench x5+

b) Squat x5, squat x5, squat x5+

c) curls 2 x 10

d) cable rope tricep extensions 2 x 10

Day 2

a )Overhead press x5, Overhead press x5, Overhead press x5+

b )Dead lift x5 +

c) curls 2 x 10

d) cable rope tricep extensions 2 x 10

Day 3

a) Bench x5, bench x5, bench x5+

b) Squat x5, squat x5, squat x5+

c) curls 2 x 10

d) cable rope tricep extensions 2 x 10

**Week 2**

Day 1 

a) Overhead press x5, overhead press x5, overhead press x5+

b) Squat x5, squat x5, squat x5+

c) chin ups 2 x 10

d) tricep dips 2 x 10

Day 2

a )Bench x5, Bench x5, Bench5+

b )Dead lift x5 +

c) chin ups 2 x 10

d) tricep dips 2 x 10

Day 3

a) Overhead press x5, overhead press x5, overhead press x5+

b) Squat x5, squat x5, squat x5+

c) chin ups 2 x 10

d) tricep dips 2 x 10

Black Sheep

I wouldn’t keep repeating the same bicep and tricep work, I would do your arm training one workout and then next workout do something else… chins, pull downs, whatever. Alternate it like set out in the examples I gave. If you’re not clear just read the Greyskull source material is handiest.

For tricep cable work higher reps seem to work best, as high as 15-20. Things like French press, lying tricep extensions etc then lower reps maybe.

When you say tricep dips if you mean full dips great. If they are bench dips (arms behind you, feet out etc) I would swap them out.

obi604

How do ye manage with the progressions. Seems to be very very specific as below. My gyms lowest weight is 1.25kg which means I’m not sticking to the plan and essentially going twice the recommended weight each time bench and press

does this matter that much?

or any hacks to get round it

• Bench Press and Overhead Press: 2.5 pounds
• Squats and Deadlifts: 5 pounds

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723046#Comment_117723046

get some wrist weights and put them on the bar, they either come in 1kg or 1/2kg

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723159#Comment_117723159

Thanks. Think I found my own primitive hack :)

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723175#Comment_117723175

its not pretty but Ill allow it 😁

Cill94

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723046#Comment_117723046

Just wait until you can do 10 reps at a weight before adding the 2.5kg.

Black Sheep

On the deadlift and squat 2.5kg progressions are fine. On the press you probably do need to buy fractional plates - they’re pretty cheap online - will allow you to add smaller increments. Cheap iron ones are fine, in 0.5 and 0.25 even.

With a linear progress like this once you are a few months in the AMRAP last sets of 5 become harder and eventually you will just start adding weight and settling for your 5s.

How to reset and squeeze out the most out of a linear progress is a topic for another day, I would run it for a few months and worry about that then.

When you start this LP I would use a very conservative set of numbers, forget what you think your current maxes are for now. Start light, it will get heavy pretty quick.

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117725054#Comment_117725054

lets say 85 kg is current 1rm. Would I start with about 50kg? This seems very light but I guess wont be long adding to it

Black Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727536#Comment_117727536

Better err on the lighter side. There’s an AMRAP set to do a lot of work on. And after the first few months 50kg will be long gone due to adding weight each workout.

If it is far too easy you can jump 5kg increments but based on your questions I would say go light and follow the program..

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728941#Comment_117728941

Thanks, patience is best.

how long should the greyskull programme last roughly?

obi604

Thoughts on this one

Where would I be best to plugin triceps and back?

(Sorry about formatting , new boards site wont let me do without all the stupid white spaces. )

Week 1

Day 1

a) Bench x5, bench x5, bench x5+

b) curls 2 x12

c) Squat x5, squat x5, squat x5+

Day 2

a)Overhead press x5, Overhead press x5, Overhead press x5+

b) chinups 2x8

b )Dead lift x5 +

Day 3

a) Bench x5, bench x5, bench x5+

b) curls 2 x12

c) Squat x5, squat x5, squat x5+

Week 2

Day 1

a) Overhead press x5, overhead press x5, overhead press x5+

b) Chinups 2x8

c) Squat x5, squat x5, squat x5+

Day 2

a )Bench x5, Bench x5, Bench5+

b) curls 2x12

b )Dead lift x5 +

Day 3

a) Overhead press x5, overhead press x5, overhead press x5+

b) Chinups 2x8

c) Squat x5, squat x5, squat x5+

Black Sheep

You could do more back work after your chins. A higher rep horizontal row or whatever.

BUT don’t add too much or else you are going to shorten your LP duration if it takes too much out of you. To be honest it’s probably important to move your accessories to after your squats if you do that.

How long an LP lasts depends on the trainee… Age, diet, athleticism, adherence to the program, understanding of how to really run it out.

I don’t want to put a number on it but certainly several months.

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730740#Comment_117730740

thanks. Where would be best to add triceps.

and then core stuff like ab wheel