General Rugby Discussion 3

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123171883#Comment_123171883

I specifically limited the list of changes to those that happened in my playing days , which was the ~25 years or so from the early 80's to the early 2000's so my point around the majority of the changes being safety related in that period still stands.

Adding to the numbers on the bench was absolutely a safety element at the time of its introduction given that its primary purpose was to ensure the availability of a fully trained front row on the bench.

I'm all for growing the game , but changing it so that it's more like other games (be that League or NFL) is NOT the way to do it in my view.

It seems we are seeking to dilute the things that make Rugby Union, Rugby Union rather than seeking to emphasis those differences to attract a new audience.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123181806#Comment_123181806

A bigger question and this isn't just relevant to rugby is why do we need to constantly attract a bigger audience.

Outside of soccer the 2 sports I love (hurling and cycling) are plagued with this constant obsession with how many people are watching and in cycling's case every "grow the sport" initiative has been a disaster and hurling like rugby is forever tinkering with formats that only upset fans and never result in this supposed growth that is promised.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123181916#Comment_123181916

I’m not saying it has anything to do w rule changes but I suspect hurling is a fair bit more popular these days, perhaps because football has become very dull.

Jacovs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123181916#Comment_123181916

Because its not about the sport, its about the company/money. How many people are watching = how much money you get. In boardroom/shareholder terms, if you arent growing then you are failing. Growth = success. The actual sport being played is immaterial.

Ben Bailey

from Robert Kitson in The Guardian

‘Clubs are going to disappear’
The community game’s feedback for the Bills, Sweeney and Beaumont, makes for painful reading as RFU hits the road in week of Calcutta Cup

You may have noticed that the sports pages are less, well, sporty than they once were. There is rather more chance of reading stern-faced stories about Sir Jim Ratcliffe and the Glazers or Manchester City’s latest legal dispute than, say, the muddy winter joys of grassroots rugby union. It is the way of the modern world and, anyway, England playing Scotland in the Six Nations this Saturday is a bigger deal, right?

Well, yes and no. If you are counting the beans inside the Rugby Football Union’s offices in Twickenham there is barely a contest. The Six Nations annually bankrolls the rest of the domestic game: it is the commercial goose that lays the golden Gilbert‑shaped eggs. Never mind the scoreboard, let’s keep the corporate guests well fed and watered. It’s all about the bottom line.

In more modest clubhouses up and down the country everyone recognises this basic reality. Of course they do. Because, if they are to prosper themselves, they also have to keep the lights on, the pitches in order and the toilets working. In theory, all that money banked at the top of the pyramid filters down for the greater post-Covid good. In return the grassroots clubs keep rugby’s flame alight in places where RFU executives seldom tread.

Talk to the nation’s unpaid armies of volunteers, however, and the Calcutta Cup showpiece this weekend is a long way down their priority list. Recently the Whole Game Union, the organisation supporting around 250 dissident clubs that have forced the RFU to convene a special general meeting next month, sent out a survey asking for feedback. The replies amount to perhaps the loudest collective cry for help ever received from the shires.

The dissatisfaction dripping from the anonymised responses certainly seems intense. “The biggest issue is a fractured game … too many vested interests with no clear idea how to grow it,” a northern referees’ society writes. “Accept community rugby actually exists before it completely dies out,” a lower-tier club from East Anglia pleads. “The RFU is not in touch with the grassroots and is totally ignoring the problems it has. As [the] grassroots don’t bring in money, they write it off … yet it is the biggest membership of the RFU.”

On and on it goes: “poor leadership”, “disastrous RFU/Premiership dealings” and a “very poor player pathway system” are merely a fraction of the widespread grievances expressed, alongside cuts in travel cost assistance, Championship funding and shortcomings in communication. The fresh eight-year partnership with the Premiership clubs, costing around £264m, also remains a clear source of frustration. As another respondent put it: “The Premiership is being run as a cartel supported by the RFU. There is a complete disconnect between the top and the community game.”

Many are clearly anxious, not just for their own small parishes but for the wider club rugby family. Not so long ago, for example, Rochford Hundred in Essex ran eight adult men’s sides. Now they are down to three and their president, Ray Stephenson, has grown weary of what he perceives to be a lack of support from above.

“A lot of clubs in Essex now only run one men’s senior side. If there’s unavailability or injuries they’re crying off games. Clubs are going to disappear … we’ve already lost four in recent times. I would say community rugby is in a tricky position. The support mechanisms just aren’t there. The consistent complaint I hear is that Bill Sweeney and the RFU are more interested in corporates and wanting their money. It’s hard to find any strong evidence of where they’re supporting the community game to make it secure going forward.”

Stephenson also reckons some RFU officials are “living in cloud cuckoo land” when they seek to offset the falling numbers in adult male participation with healthier figures relating to women and girls. Locally he is further aggrieved with the mid-season administrative goalpost‑moving that could cause previously “safe” clubs to be relegated to a lower tier. It is just another of the concerns being encountered by Sweeney and the RFU’s interim chair, Sir Bill Beaumont, as they continue their nationwide “road show” aimed at fragmenting the SGM vote.

For many, though, it is too little too late with the furore over Sweeney’s pay – £742,000 basic salary plus a bonus of £348,000 in a year when the RFU reported an operating loss of almost £40m – still rippling through the cash-strapped community game. Stephenson says: “I have less of a problem with his salary in some respects but he’s taken a £348,000 bonus while making 42 staff redundant. Those people have got mortgages to pay and lives to lead. And, at a local level, we’re also the ones who suffer. It’s the kids I’m worried about. Where are they going to go and play their rugby? They don’t play it at many schools any more. They only play it with us or at other rugby clubs. It just makes me so cross.”

The RFU will point to the (reassuringly expensive) review conducted by the law firm Freshfields which found their “long-term incentive plan scheme” to be “appropriate in light of the goals it sought to achieve”. Such pieces of work, however, do not venture beyond their specific terms of reference and miss the nub of the issue generating so much anger and mistrust.

Among other things this one skated over the judgment of those in high office, their ability to read the room and the reality that they are effectively running a cooperative rather than some massive private corporation. And the biggest, most unforgivable aspect of all? The loss of yet another opportunity to write about the actual bloody sport."

sydthebeat

RFU commissioned "independent" report into RFU bonus structure returns 'appropriate levels' response.

What. A. Shocker.

😕

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123181916#Comment_123181916

Ultimately, this comes down to basic economics, not just in Rugby, or sport in general, but basically everything. The number one fact is that, outside of a massive depression, costs are always going to increase. Players wages go up, support staff wages go up, executives wages go up (far more than they should), cost of building/maintaining a stadium go up.

If it costs more to run a business, then there's two main ways to overcome this:

Reduce costs, which is pretty hard to be honest. Once you let go everyone that you don't need, those that remain generally don't accept working for less, and costs for them go up too, so there's only so much that this'll do.

Increase revenue, which can be broken down into two different methods. First, get more money from the people already interested in the sport. That comes across as higher ticket prices, more corporate tickets, higher TV fees (which are ultimately paid by the rugby supporters), etc.

Second, increase the number of people who are willing to part with time/money for the sport. This is the one that causes the TV stations, pundits and podcasters to all try and explain what's happening in Rugby, as it's a game of laws, more so that most. If you put a person that's never seen a soccer or rugby game in front of both, the soccer game will be more or less self explanatory. The rugby game on the other hand, is obtuse, difficult to understand without getting into the weeds of what's happening.

I don't know what the solution is long term, but you're going to see more and more efforts to bridge the divide, so to speak.

Brief_Lives

November Internationals

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123183785#Comment_123183785

I don't disagree with your general analysis but the conclusion comparing the experience of soccer and rugby leaves a lot out. Many sports have a learning curve: cricket, golf and AFL all have varying levels of obscure scoring systems and non intuitive or non obvious rules, eg the off side rule in soccer is peculiar an non sensical in many respects (doesn't apply in the 6 yard box), VAR just makes it looks absurd and nit picking. Maybe rugby is more complicated but that's not the point. I'm not sure the complexity of rugby is a reason it doesn't have more fans, anymore than the simplicity of tennis proves it should be the most popular spectator sport on earth.

hold my beer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123185373#Comment_123185373

You absolutely can be offside in the 6 yard box in soccer, no idea where you're getting that.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123185392#Comment_123185392

No from a throw in. Even fans don't understand this stuff.😋

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123185392#Comment_123185392

I chuckled

hold my beer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123185413#Comment_123185413

Hmmm. You can't be offside from a throw in anywhere on the pitch, not just the 6 yard box.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123185413#Comment_123185413

Is this the point where someone posts "stop digging"? 😜😂

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123184882#Comment_123184882

Well Japan feels novel at least.

I'm sure other matches will be good on the day but I'm sick to death of the fake sense of importance drummed up for these now constant "test games".

Podge_irl

To move off the soccer discussion, the NFL is equally an incredibly complicated sport and one that is actively growing into international markets. And they don't try to dumb the sport down in order to do it. If you watch a broadcast of it they are never really trying to "explain" the sport, but just getting into what they find to be fascinating details.

I love rugby - I will watch almost any match of it that happens to be on at that time. I do not care for those in charge who start talking about how we need to change it.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123185417#Comment_123185417

Exactly! Arcane, complicated, contradictory rules that accrue to make the game more compteitive/enjoyable to watch but in isolation are non sensical. Boils down to Podge's point above, other sports don't prostrate themselves and apologise for the rules, and don't tweak the rules to appeal to people who don't watch the sport.

breezy1985

The other problem with all this change is it's clearly failing in a massive way. Wales, England and Australia are all on the brink and it feels like something really apocalyptic is on the way if spending isn't brought back to a level befitting a small sport.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123185562#Comment_123185562

Thats ultimately why all the changes are neccessary. As CatInABox outlined, if revenue isn't growing (which is the aim of changing the laws of the game to attract more fans) then the only other option is to reduce costs. And that will also involve significant changes to the game.

But either way changes are going to have to happen, because the game is struggling hugely financially in too many of its already very limited number of countries.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123188330#Comment_123188330

The game financially is struggling because it is overstretching itself out of those few countries. Players/staff chasing football size contracts should be told to go off and play football even if that means the game loses some top talent.

I just see no evidence across any sport that dumbing down, adding "razzmatazz" or jetting off to places who don't give a sht actually work.

It's only a small example but who the fuk actually asked for flamethrowers and lazer light shows at Thomond Park or stupid songs after every try ant Lansdowne. Did it actually add any fans ?

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123188481#Comment_123188481

I find the razzle dazzle to be a pain in the arse but seen in the context of improving the game day experience, particularly for families, kids and girls, it's a good thing. Some of it works and some of it faceplants but overall the more attractive the experience the more appealing it is and the more value is there for punters. It's a very entertaining sport and it needs to appeal beyond young lads and aul lads whose playing days are over. The risk of commercialisation is more acute when venture capital enters the picture honestly, that feels like borrowing money for current account spending that will ultimately be funded by mergers, acquisitions, paywalls and asset stripping.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123189743#Comment_123189743

Again you are working off the theory that these things actually work to grow a sport. I see no evidence to suggest that.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123190170#Comment_123190170

You could say the same about seating and covered stands.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123190403#Comment_123190403

Covered stand keeps you dry. Having a mix of seating and standing to suit everyone is a good option. All seater though is detrimental to sport. Probably not essential though for the growth of the sport as there doesn't seem to be a correlation between a good stadium and a well supported team.

Not the same as some daft flamethrower though which adds nothing. Fans got excited and loud as the team came out long before they had to be announced via flamethrower so I don't see the evidence that they add to the atmosphere. It's just corporate wnk thought up by a guy who has never seen a ball in his life.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123188481#Comment_123188481

The flamethrowers etc, the "razzle dazzle", is generally some of the most posted social media from games on instagram and tiktok. Which would suggest its a huge hit with younger generations.

The salaries, while clearly unsustainably high for the income coming in, for most players also aren't even that high as far as salaries go - these are nowhere near football levels. And bear in mind these are average figures, so inflated by the elite / high earners. Most players aren't on a huge amount more than players would expect to be earning as successful solicitors, accountants, IT/finance professionals etc.

Which is why revenues need to rise - professional rugby is a very demanding, physically destructive, and short duration career. Its not possible to pay someone 50k a year and expect them to do it.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123191149#Comment_123191149

Most sports aren't up there with soccer (or American sports). What other sports make is immaterial and the only thing that counts is what rugby can pay while remaining sustainable.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123191149#Comment_123191149

Full backs being paid more than scrum halves ???

Strange value proposition.

Imo the thing that makes rugby union amenable to expansion is the same thing it's often criticised for ; 'Rugby values'

If Rugby is identified as a sport that instills & maintains values that people favour then the game will spread. I don't believe it will ever reach the levels of popularity that basketball, soccer or fishing have & no amount of showbiz will change that. However I understand that all leisure time activities are essentially in competition with each other & anything that initially attracts audience & builds participation shouldn't be ignored.

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123191149#Comment_123191149

It’s funny you mention accountants, a friend of mine who I played with was offered a 2 year deal with Connaught a few years ago and turned it down because he was making more as an accountant and had a stable career path. He doesn’t regret not taking it and is still an accountant!

Brief_Lives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123191967#Comment_123191967

Thats just what an accountant would say.

People can start careers at 30 and above. Not many get the opportunity to attempt to be a professional rugby player.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123191197#Comment_123191197

You're the one who brought up football salaries in the post I quoted…

That aside, what other sports make is very material because players will choose to play them instead, thats what is happening at scale in Australia.

Or at the Prem salary points above, the players will chose other non-sporting careers with similar (or better) salaries.

We absolutely need stricter salary caps to help club finances not over paying for the elite players mind you, ideally world-wide ones (adjusted for Cost of Living). But the idea that in general rugby players are on astronomical wages just isn't the reality. They're mostly on very reasonable, not excessive at all, salaries.

Which is why revenue needs to increase more-so than costs being cut.

knockoneffect

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123191245#Comment_123191245

It's the mix of specialized positions and statistical averaging. Any pro team will have a minimum of four scrum halves on their books so there are many more journeymen and young pros filling up squads than there are internationals and high value players. You're not starting a pro game without two fit scrum halves. Lots of clubs invest in one or two good fullbacks who can generally play wing, then supplement the position from elsewhere in the backline.

Exactly the same effect can be seen at hooker.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123192136#Comment_123192136

If players choose to move to other sports for the money they need to be let go.

Those big rugby salaries will be worth fek all when Australia, Wales and England are all bankrupt which it looks like we are not far away from.

I never ever said they were on huge salaries. I said the salaries are too big for what rugby can afford.

Changing the rules to make the game supposedly more watchable won't actually grow revenue. It never does.

Clegg

La Rochelle lost last weekend to Racing 92. It was the lattere first victory in almost 3 months. That's now five defeats in a row for La Rochelle. and their last victory was a three point squeaker against a Toulouse B team.

Post-match ROG was talking about his squad not playing for him and players not listening to his messages. I doubt we'll see a sacking or anything like that. He's done too much good there for that. Could potentially see him leaving on the summer if things don't turn around though.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123205439#Comment_123205439

I'd say he is angling for the Australia job pretty hard just to get out of there. It would seem his time has run its course.

niallm77

Cheika to wales growing legs

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123205554#Comment_123205554

Would they not give it to Sheratt? Though maybe it's a step too far to give it to an Englishman.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123205672#Comment_123205672

His dad is English & his mum is Welsh.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123205990#Comment_123205990

Might swing it for him. Still, he would be the first Englishman to get the job.

ersatz

I'm not a huge fan of the 20 minute red card but there's a strong argument that it saved our arses on Saturday.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123206118#Comment_123206118

💯 As someone who saw some merit it when the trial was announced way back I was happy enough it benefited from it.

testtech05

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123205672#Comment_123205672

I think he has been quoted multiple times saying he doesn't want to be considered for the role full time

pickarooney

Ma'a Nonu back to Toulon as a mecical joker!

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123208813#Comment_123208813

He's 42….

Unbelievable that he's even remotely capable of playing at that kind of level as on outside back at that age.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123208813#Comment_123208813

Maybe

Son'n Nonu ?

CatFromHue

Not sure if anyone's interested but there's a pop up shop opened in the old Dun Laoghaire shopping centre selling old jerseys.

phog

Felix Jones heading back to Rassie and SA

typhoony

Just watched a few clips of Felix Jones in catching the sun documentary and it's beyond belief that he hasn't been brought back into the Irish System

Clegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123205439#Comment_123205439

La Rochelle have lost again. This time to Stade Francais who were bottom of the table. I think O'Gara's questioning of the squad last week was a way of trying to get a traction out of them and it failed.

jacothelad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123221529#Comment_123221529

Maybe he was approached and declined the invitation.

thebaz

Watched the semi finalof rugby championchip highlights - Spain surprisingly beat Portugal. Would love to see rugby grow outside traditional small set of countrys . Ther was a very poor crowd at game , world rugby needs to do more than just expanding World cup numbers, and probable hidings , if they want to grwo game and increase world interest.