General Rugby Discussion 3

niallm77

THat escalated quickly. 19-0 now

Bath look awful in defence so far

realhorrorshow

Such a pleasure to watch Finn Russell pass the ball.

markest

26-12 after 30 mins conditions must be better than here.

Clegg

Don't like how dismissive the TNT commentators are of head contact. The TMO in the Northampton/Bath game brought a potential foul play collision to the attention of the referee.

There was head on head contact, but it was purely accidental and occurred when a Bath support runner ran into a tackler and smacked the tackler on the head. It still requires a look at to ensure nothing untoward happened.

niallm77

BAth ahead now having been 16 points down

OldRio

Well that was fun. Finn Smith MOTM. Deserved as well.

PMC83

Ollie Lawrence play acting a bit there. You'd swear he was shot

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123022948#Comment_123022948

He had given out a few cheap shots as well.

Brief_Lives

he also apologised

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123024675#Comment_123024675

Reading between the lines he really didn't

Ben Bailey

The Counter Ruck: the rugby newsletter from The Irish Times (Johnny Watterson)

In Gordon D’Arcy’s column earlier this week he aired the view that Test match players should be involved in the United Rugby Championship (URC) interprovincial meetings around Christmas.

One of the points he rightly made was that rugby fans were denied the opportunity of seeing the two Irish No 10s, Leinster’s Sam Prendergast and Munster’s Jack Crowley go head-to-head in Thomond Park.

The pair are probably the biggest talking point in Irish rugby at the moment.

In Leinster’s game against Connacht, Irish captain Caelan Doris, scrumhalf Jamison Gibson-Park, flanker Josh van der Flier, lock James Ryan and centres Garry Ringrose and Robbie Henshaw were also not among the starting team, although Gibson-Park came off the bench after 50 minutes for Luke McGrath.

It was a well-supported match with the official attendance at the Aviva Stadium on December 21st listed at 33,963.

It leads on to the question about what matches players should play in and when they should be resting, how many matches should they play a year and how clubs prioritise their players and opponents.

This weekend all four provinces are resting as there are no URC matches, with the Champions Cup resuming next weekend after two rounds played.

Many people regard the load that professional players face as the number of matches they play over the course of a season. But research has shown that the term ‘load’ refers to a large number of disparate factors of which competing at the weekend in a Six Nations or URC match is just one.

In 2016 the British Journal of Sports Medicine (BJSM) published a paper on rugby player loads and listed 23 to which professional players are subjected. They ranged from training and playing matches to travel fatigue, performance analysis, media, drug testing, family pressures, fan obligations, agents and socialising. It also listed eating for body composition management and learning team tactics as load factors.

It concluded that load was a major risk factor for injury and managing training loads should be an important element in enabling players to perform in a fit state as often as possible.

It is straightforward for coaches to work out the amount of rugby they want their players to face. In this calendar year there are five international matches in the Six Nations, and nine British and Irish Lions matches between the end of June and beginning of August, including three Tests against Australia.

Overlapping that, Ireland will tour Georgia and Romania with dates yet to be fixed before the month-long autumn festival of rugby comes around again next November. In 2024 that encompassed four matches against New Zealand, Argentina, Fiji and Australia.

Add in two regular competitions, the URC, which has 18 rounds before a quarter-final, and the multi-pool Champions Cup running over four pool stages and four knockout rounds including the final. Those club competitions alone add up to 29 competitive matches.

For the national team captain, Doris, he could also expect to play in five of the Six Nations matches, three of the Lions tests against Australia and three of the Autumn Nations Series 2025 games.

For the BJSM study into player loads, 2014 season data was provided by Opta, a commercial sports data provider, and included players from both northern and southern hemisphere teams across all competitions.

Information was obtained for 2,348 players, of whom 673 played in at least one international over the period examined. Forty per cent of players appeared in 20 matches or more, and 20 per cent appeared in 25 matches or more. Fifty-six per cent of those who appeared in 25 matches or more appeared in one or more internationals. Only 5% of players appeared in 30 matches or more.

The point is that there are too many matches in a season – between club and international around 40 – for players to be able to compete in much more than half.

In the 2023-24 season Doris played in 13 international matches for Ireland and 15 club matches with Leinster for a 28-game total. The previous 2022-23 season he played 11 international matches and 13 for Leinster for a total of 24 matches.

Van der Flier has similar numbers. For the 2022-23 season he played 10 times for Ireland and 14 times for Leinster in 24 matches and in the 2023-24 season he turned out 12 times with Ireland and 15 times with Leinster for 27 matches. In both of those seasons the openside flanker played seven times in the URC.

More recent research in 2022 carried out at the University of Bath and funded by the Rugby Players Association (RPA) said players should be limited to 30 ‘game involvements’ per season to prevent a “significantly higher injury burden” in the following campaign. A ‘game involvement’ was understood as “any time spent on the field”, given “broader elements of load associated with matches”.

The study found that 31 or more match involvements in a season leads to a significantly higher injury burden in the following season.

Doubtlessly fans prefer to see the international players perform for their clubs and there should be an onus on management to make that happen, especially when numbers hit over 30,000 for the Christmas games at the Aviva.

But the question the four provincial coaches regularly mull over is whether they need those frontline players now to please fans, or to be available and healthy to play in the next World Cup.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123027027#Comment_123027027

The question really is, do Irish fans deserve to see full-blooded interprovincial contests at the expense of picking up more points against weaker opposition?

For example, rest the front line players in an interprovincial, and then deploy them against one of the Welsh sides to ensure to pick up points. Coaches will opt for whatever garners the most points, whereas supporters would prefer to see the interpros with all the best players.

Nothing will change unless the IRFU higher ups put pressure on the coaches to prioritise the interpros.

sydthebeat

Darcys last line there makes zero sense.

It is not, not should be, the official coaches remit to ensure players are fit and healthy for the next RWC. It's the IRFUs, and they do this through the player welfare system where they break the club season up into blocks with prescribed maximums minutes and give the official coaches leeway to decide how to best use these minutes within these blocks.

Were Munster correct in playing Crowley in the Ulster game and not in the Leinster game? We'll the pudding is eaten and 100% yes Munster mate the correct decision. 5 points gained against Ulster and a sell out game in thomond.

I've been going to thomond for years for this fixture and I've seen everything from shadow sides playing each other, to one side being fully loaded to occasionally both sides begging fully loaded. I can't recall ever being in thomond when it wasn't at least 90% full, including last year's slog fest in sh1t weather. Do I ever think I'm being cheated out of the entrance fee, not ever. It's always the most anticipated fixture of the season for me, regardless of the teams named. I enjoyed watching Darragh fanning and Mick McGrath in these games as much as James Lowe and Jordan larmour, but hey, maybe that's just me

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123027384#Comment_123027384

Yep, thought Darcy was click baiting with that article.

Watterson, whose sports writing I've always admired, doesn't expand on his last point about coachs selecting sides. The IRFU and their provincial coach employees are supposed to be in sync on player welfare, so don't get his point about WC prep.

Exclamation Marc

Murray Kinsella reporting that Chris Busby is retiring in light of the Mack Hansen comments. Some will probably argue that its an accumulation and not based on that single incident but it's hard to argue that it didn't play a big part (if he does indeed step away).

Referees don't always get things right but this just shows that over-criticising them can have serious consequences. Years of his development now wasted.

Clegg

Scotland squad has been named for the Six Nations. Ben Healy hasn't been selected. That move really hasn't worked out for him.

https://twitter.com/Scotlandteam/status/1879521439310864715?t=xZQBYzMy8OujNSPF6sWRxg&s=09

Brief_Lives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123058551#Comment_123058551

it did work out, he wanted to play in the World Cup, and he did.

He wasn't getting a look in with Ireland.

Clegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123058574#Comment_123058574

That's far too reductive. It wasn't just a world cup he wanted. He moved for more game time and now he's getting neither for club or country.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123058582#Comment_123058582

Try keeping up. He played for his club last weekend.

Brief_Lives

Frenchies squad… Antoine Frisch in it.

Brief_Lives

Also I see Slimani is back in the french squad.

Dillonb3

Ollivon, Fickou and Wardi 3 stand out omissions. I know Wardi cracked a rib against Leinster last weekend so he's probably injured

Clegg

You could at least give the full context. The conversation is about how Healy's move to Edinburgh hasn't worked out for him. He's on the fringes of selection for club and out of consideration entirely for Scotland. Edinburgh have played 12 matches this season and Ben Healy has started three times. He started a few early league fixtures and then last weekend against Vannes in the Challenge Cup.

He was left out of senior squads entirely on a number of occasions and dropped to play for the A team instead.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123058688#Comment_123058688

I think we all know the real context.

Clegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123058670#Comment_123058670

Fickou is injured. Broke his thumb last month. Alexandre Roumat probably would have made the squad as well, but he picked up an injury a few weeks ago.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123058670#Comment_123058670

All three are injured. Ollivon is out for the whole thing AFAIK.

Brief_Lives

Ollivon is out for the season, took a huge hit on his leg (maybe knee) setting up a try last weekend.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123058688#Comment_123058688

He has gotten more caps than he was ever going to get in Ireland - I suspect he's perfectly happy with his decision. The problem is not his move, the problem is that he was never good enough in the first place.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123058810#Comment_123058810

His ACL again. Could be finished in blue.

bingobango12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123058590#Comment_123058590

He has started 2 games this season out of 12, 1 being in the Challenge Cup. Try keeping up this isn't considered successful.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123058616#Comment_123058616

Josh Brennan called up too

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123058913#Comment_123058913

except for his last few months at munster. and a number of times during his time with munster. and his early edinburgh career

fair enough to say he isnt world class or whatever, but simply saying 'he was never good enough in the first place' is just unfairly harsh

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123058913#Comment_123058913

I'de much rather he was still at Munster instead of Burns. That lad isn't a rugby player. I'm convinced he got in a la "George Weah's cousin"

phog

I'd happily have him at Munster too but I wouldn't begrudge him or belittle his achievement of playing at a RWC.

darkened_scrum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123058590#Comment_123058590

I think he has more starts for Edinburgh 'A' than Edinburgh this season.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123059410#Comment_123059410

I meant not good enough to be an international and I'd stand by that. I do find his treatment at Edinburgh a bit bizarre - I don't think he is great at all but its weird to go from playing every minute one season to the A team the next. The last few months at Munster were clearly the height of his career though and I don't think they're reflective of his actual ability.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123059420#Comment_123059420

I would have strongly disagreed with that prior to this season and think I probably still would. But yeah Burns has not worked out well at Munster.

sydthebeat

cruel i know… but i giggled ;)

RichieRich_89

I quite like Healy as an outhalf. He'd be an upgrade on Burns as second choice for Munster, in my opinion. I think it'd make sense to make an exception to the NIQ rules for him if it comes up in the future that he might re-sign.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123061572#Comment_123061572

I didnt even need to scroll down to know who's name would be in the bottom photo 😂

pappyodaniel

Weird question. Apart from the old boys club back in the day, has there been any internationals who had a brother who was capped in another international sport. Only came into my mind because I'm watching the United v Southampton game and there's a player who has a similar surname to Izuchukwu.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123061572#Comment_123061572

Imagine the noise this would cause here if the bottom name was Harry Byrne

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123064083#Comment_123064083

Probably zero since the joke wouldn't make any sense

Exclamation Marc

Season 2 of Six Nations Full Contact is on Netflix on 29th January

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123063948#Comment_123063948

Not the same but Kevin Moran won a couple of All Irelands with the Dubs and won two FA Cups with Man Utd. He also played for Ireland.

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123063948#Comment_123063948

Probably a few rugby league/rugby union brothers out there I'm sure (like the Burgess family) but that's probably cheating a bit.

Theo Obango who plays for Cardiff has a brother who plays for the Wales football team so that might be one for the future.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123063948#Comment_123063948

Axel had a sister who played rugby for Ireland, I think she also swam the English Channel solo

I think Marcus Horan's sister played hockey for Ireland but maybe it was only club hockey that she played.

The wife of George Naoupu played rugby for Ireland, though I'm not sure if George played intentional

And if either of Wood's brothers get to play for Ireland, you'd have 3 generations of international rugby players.

pickarooney

It's definitely an old-boys club back in the day example but Arthur and Lucius Gwynn played rugby for Ireland while their brothers John and Robert played cricket for Ireland.

Apparently.

Athletics doesn't give caps, but Jessika Zebo has represented Ireland if that counts.

And the Garden-Bachops have been capped at underage level, Jackson in rugby and Georgia in Hockey.

Edit: found another one, Johnnie (rugby) and Jen (soccer) Beattie for Scotland.

OldRio

Alan and Chris Old from Middlesbrough in England. Alan played rugby for England and also the Lions in the 70s. He should have had more Caps IMHO. Chris played cricket for England.

sydthebeat

Thibaut Courtois represented Belgium in football and his sister Valerie represented Belgium in volleyball

Lost Ormond

Shane o leary repped Canada jn rugby and his sister maeve og is playing rugby for ireland and played softball for ireland