General Rugby Discussion 3

Pete_Cavan

What length of time would Healy have to spend without a Scotland cap to become Irish qualified again? I don't see him ever getting capped but could see him at Ulster or Connacht given their lack of 10s, if he can become Irish qualified relatively quickly.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122709289#Comment_122709289

Eligible for ireland 3 years after last international cap for scotland

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122708991#Comment_122708991

Perhaps it's simple a reflection of his calibre as a player?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122709555#Comment_122709555

Probably

Clegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122709555#Comment_122709555

I agree with this to an extent. Healy is a facilitator type 10 on the mould of Rose Byrne. I think the latter is quite a bit better though.

PTH2009

Any place to download

'Chasing The Sun 2'

PM if anyone has a link

aloooof

Jonathan Davies announces his retirement. Absolute class player…

https://twitter.com/andrewfrugby/status/1828824864591085577

Ben Bailey

Ronnie Dawson of Wanderers, Leinster, The Barbarians, The Lions and Ireland.

May he rest in peace

Exclamation Marc

FFR, LNR and Provale are opposing the new 20 minutes red card law.

Hopefully that will kill any chance of it becoming law post-trial.

https://twitter.com/LNRofficiel/status/1845753003514401278

TheRona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717422#Comment_122717422

Can't say I really agree with their reasoning. They talk a lot about player safety, but they also state that there's not sufficient evidence to say one way or the other. Surely there are stats to say whether the 20 minute red card has an adverse affect on player safety based on the trials that have taken place so far? Are there even stats to say that player welfare has improved with the bar lowered for red card offences concerning head contact? At the very least, there should be stats to show that the 20 minute red card results in a huge jump in the number of offences, due to players knowing the punishment isn't as severe.

Maybe there are stats out there now, but I couldn't see anything when I last looked. Judging from the n=1 sample size of Leinster v Munster on the weekend, the volume of HIA assessments definitely isn't going down.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717711#Comment_122717711

There's zero evidence of it having any benefit to player safety whatsoever and some of the stats from the early trials showed a slight increase in cards , not a reduction.

The only "benefit" being touted is some tripe about the "spectacle" - That's it, that's the entire reason for this stupidity , the idea that fans are somehow robbed of the value of their ticket if there is an early red card in a game.

It's yet another attempt to assist Australia and to a lesser extent NZ defend their revenue streams from League.

League seem to allow any kind of tackling with little to no significant sanctions being applied.

Someone somewhere in a marketing team has decided that League fans won't watch a Union game with an early red card because they'll think it's all a bit "soft" or something , so they are trying this utter bullsh!t.

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717711#Comment_122717711

I look at the rule-change more from the perspective of sanctions not just on HIAs.

If its a red card offence, you should be sent off. If its a yellow card offence, you should be sin-binned. You have a bunker review if its somewhere between the two (and/or the referee is not sure) and you let the bunker look at all the angles at all the speeds and determine the appropriate punishment. Simple.

Make no mistake, this is all being done because the game/spectacle "suffers" when a player gets sent off. This is not being done to bring yellow cards up to the standard of 20 minute red cards, its to bring red cards down to less severe punishments. It's almost an admission that players can't be trusted to cut out red-card offences so lets reduce the effect of some of them, just in case.

Whatever way someone looks at it (whether you agree or disagree that it will or will not affect player safety), World Rugby reducing punishments for red card offences when the game is in the midst of CTE issues and huge concussion-related lawsuits, is at best awful timing.

TheRona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122718117#Comment_122718117

My point is that if the argument is player safety, where are the stats to show that a 20 minute card has a negative effect on player welfare, or where are the stats to say that the red card laws around head contact from a few years back have had a positive effect on player welfare, or at least a reduction in HIA's? The statement from the FFR cites player welfare, but also says they can't back this up in any way. All I'm saying is that it shouldn't be that hard to prove, the stats must be out there.

OldRio

I've edited because I tried, rather unsuccessfuly an English translation to the FFR statement.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122718394#Comment_122718394

There's clear evidence that enforcement impacts behaviour.

Look at the massive reduction in players making contact in the air since they started handing out red-cards for it?

It took a couple of seasons for player behaviour and coaching to adjust , but the impact was clearly there.

The same applies to head contact - It'll take a while for the behaviours and coaching to adjust to the new standards and some teams/leagues will and have adjusted faster.

What you've seen over the last 18 months is a concerted effort to undermine those changes by certain elements framed around the nonsense argument of "protecting the spectacle" for fans.

There was a clear difference in how the game was being refereed in the Southern Hemisphere vs. the North where you saw the Southern teams getting hammered by Northern Refs for things they were being let away with at home.

I referee here and at the start of last season the tackle height was lowered to the elbow for all junior and underage rugby.

It took the teams about 6 weeks to adjust and now , you just don't see the big chest high hits anymore.

Pro level takes a bit longer as they are more heavily coached and they are more deliberate in their actions - They go higher for a specific tactical reason to stop the pass and stop the player getting their arms free etc. so their defensive systems take longer to update , but consistent application of the laws over a season will get everyone in line.

pickarooney

AFAIK all but one of the tournaments where tackle heights have been lowered have quickly shown that it's not difficult to change player behaviour and it has an immediate, positive effect on the game.

So why do WR keep pissing about with pointless changes and not just bite the bullet on this?

TheRona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122718651#Comment_122718651

I believe there is also evidence that lowering tackle height to hips and below resulted in more head impacts, as you end up having more contact between head and knee, head and hip etc.

In any case, I'm not arguing the fact that punishment can change behaviour. That's a given. All I'm asking for is stats to back up the argument for and against the 20 minute red card in relation to player welfare. The FFR cited lack of evidence, based on one Under 20 tournament, but surely the 20 minute red card has been used much more extensively than that over the last few years, and there should be some clear findings. If the 20 minute red card has been shown to have adverse impact on player welfare, then it makes you wonder why WR would try to push forward with it. On the flip side, if there is no evidence of it affecting player welfare, then why do people have an issue with it?

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122718777#Comment_122718777

Australians, it's that simple.

ersatz

For me this really is pandering to the 'games gone soft' choir. It's interesting to watch SH analysis at half time and after a match from NZ, SA and Oz broadcasts and compare it to Ireland, Britain and France. SH always has least one voice mourning the impact of cards on the games and or arguing that such and such an offense is a rugby incident or isn't serious enough to card, its a physical game and players want to suck it up. In the north there are arguments about the same incidents but they aren't framed as a threat to some existential aspect of the game. WR has folded in the face of the argument that audiences need something that cards prevent them having. Zero to back it up, red cards in union aren't keeping audiences watching league in Oz.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122718777#Comment_122718777

Xacto

Ben Bailey

"I believe there is also evidence that lowering tackle height to hips and below resulted in more head impacts, as you end up having more contact between head and knee, head and hip etc."

It's one thing to lower tackle height, and an entirely different thing to have players employ better tackle technique.

Any player who is used to tackling chest to chest just continues to do so at a reduced height and exposes their head to contact with hips & knees.

Ben Bailey

8 years today since Axel passed.

Still hurts.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122724684#Comment_122724684

Agreed , but if the focus shifts to a lower more "classic" tackle technique then the risks get reduced.

Again , it's a behavioural thing that will take time to really filter through , but if kids are introduced to the tackle and the ONLY tackle they are shown is the classic "cheek to cheek" and they aren't coached to try a choke tackle or a higher hit to block the pass then that tackle type goes away and the risks reduces.

They stop running in for the "old" style tackle and dipping at the last second to lower the contact point , instead they start out with a better technique from the outset.

There is no instant solution , but good coaching and refereeing over time will enforce the behavioural change.

OldRio

Clegg has posted a link on the Ireland thread re IRFU coming out against the new red card trial. (or the let's pander to the Aussies and NZ law)

Hopefully other Unions follow the FFR and the IRFU.

TheRona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122734073#Comment_122734073

Interesting that the statement says that there's no permanent red card for deliberate and intentional acts of foul play. Didn't know this was the case.

TheRona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122734846#Comment_122734846

To reply to myself, there is still a permanent red card without replacement for deliberate and dangerous foul play, and the IRFU are in support of this variation, as used in Super Rugby and the Rugby Championship.

Good to see the IRFU are fully behind pandering to the Aussies and Kiwis 😜

Jacovs

SA squad to play Scotland, England and Wales:

Springbok squad:

Props: Thomas du Toit (Bath), Vincent Koch (Sharks), Frans Malherbe (Stormers), Ox Nche (Sharks), Gerhard Steenekamp (Bulls)

Hookers: Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears), Bongi Mbonambi (Sharks)

Locks: Eben Etzebeth (Sharks), Franco Mostert (Honda Heat), Ruan Nortje (Bulls), RG Snyman (Leinster)

Loose forwards: Pieter-Steph du Toit (Toyota Verblitz), Siya Kolisi (captain, Sharks), Elrigh Louw (Bulls), Kwagga Smith (Shizuoka Blue Revs), Marco van Staden (Bulls), Jasper Wiese (Urayasu D-Rocks)

Utility forward: Jan-Hendrik Wessels (Bulls)

Scrumhalves: Jaden Hendrikse (Sharks), Cobus Reinach (Montpellier), Grant Williams (Sharks)

Flyhalves: Manie Libbok (Stormers), Handre Pollard (Leicester Tigers)

Centres: Lukhanyo Am (Sharks), Damian de Allende (Wild Knights), Andre Esterhuizen (Sharks), Jesse Kriel (Canon Eagles)

Outside backs: Kurt-Lee Arendse (Bulls), Aphelele Fassi (Sharks), Cheslin Kolbe (Suntory Sungoliath), Willie le Roux (Bulls), Makazole Mapimpi (Sharks), Canan Moodie (Bulls), Damian Willemse (Stormers)

11 Sharks

3 Stormers

8 Bulls

12 Overseas based players

0 Lions

pickarooney

Not a whole lot of new blood in there at first glance. No young hookers, locks or centres?

Jacovs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122749039#Comment_122749039

Wasnt familiar with Jan-Hendrik Wessels myself, but apparently regular position is hooker or prop, so theres at least 1 young guy there in the mix. Ruan Nortje relatively young lock. But yeah, the whole back line its only Canan Moodie thats young, Kurt-Lee Arendse, Fassi, Willemse and Libbok young-ish.

pickarooney

Ah, of course utility foward means prop/hooker in SA and not lock/blindside :P

Jacovs

I was caught the same, figured he was a flanker/back row until I googled him.

Former Former Former

Looks like SA are pretty determined to go home with a clean sweep and planning for the future can wait until next year.

Mapimpi is a head-scratcher, 34 years old and on the fringes of the team, you'd expect him to be pensioned off by now.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122749257#Comment_122749257

No Faf de Klerk though, unless he is injured?

Jacovs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122749320#Comment_122749320

Injured a while, since before rugby championship far as I know.

Yeah, inured in second test against Ireland in Durban, which now feels like a lifetime ago, but was only in July.

Clegg

Scotland squad named.

Sione Tuipulotu is new captain and Ben Healy has been dropped entirely.

https://twitter.com/Scotlandteam/status/1849059461375099270?t=WyCiQ4CuB08cX4u2CLdIFQ&s=09

ersatz

That's tough on Healy, and a cautionary tale. South Africa hoping for a clean sweep is pretty basic, neither Scotland nor Wales have a hope and SAs game should be plenty for England.

Jacovs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122749176#Comment_122749176

He has now withdrawn from the squad due to an injury. He will be replaced by 2 other Bulls players, Hooker Johan Grobbelaar and Prop Wilco Louw.

Ardillaun

What is the best site to assess place-kicking? One that takes length, angle etc. into account? The model of shots gained from golf has been mentioned to assess degree of difficulty. One feature I haven’t seen incorporated - footedness. The sector right beside the right touch line must be an easier place for left-footed players? I’d also be curious about drop goals. There seems to be less of an improvement there over the decades and its frequency seems to have declined as well.

pickarooney

I think this is one of the best ones. Not sure if it has what you need

https://www.goalkickers.co.za/

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122767470#Comment_122767470

I am having trouble loading the data. The site still works?

Jacovs

Hmmmmm Damian Willemse injured in the weekend's URC game, so the Sprinboks replace him with Cameron Hanekom, a loose forward from the Bulls. Makes sense.

pickarooney

Ah but now Hendrikse has replaced Malherbe to I guess that evens out… somehow!

Jacovs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122774283#Comment_122774283

Just saw that now and came to post it. Part of Rassie's mind games, keep them guessing, I guess.

Podge_irl

Not that I follow SA rugby closely, but Hanekom seems to have been getting a lot of good press and whenever I've seen him he's been good. Was surprised he wasn't in the original squad.

Hurrache

(ex)roommate no longer has access to his parents Sky subscription which we previously used to catch games not on terrestrial TV, so where's the best place to go now, legitimately, to catch as many as the upcoming internationals as possible?

He still has access to Discovery+ but I don't think you can get the matches on an Ireland account.

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122786387#Comment_122786387

Think the autumn internationals are on Amazon Prime.

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122787094#Comment_122787094

The Autumn Internationals are all covered on TNT sports. A Now TV sub will do the job.

Hurrache

Cheers lads. I have Amazon Prime so that'll be my first port of call, otherwise a 1 month sub for Now TV.

icdg

They are on TNT Sports.

TNT is available through Discovery+ (on a top level tier) in the UK but not in Ireland. Now TV is where you can get a pass.

They are no longer on Amazon Prime, anywhere.

clsmooth

Fancy England to get a result today. They were close in both summer games and would expect home advantage to swing it today. Not sure NZ are that much further down the line despite Robertson having had more time to work with them since then.