General Rugby Discussion 3

FtD v2

CVC's investment is via their shareholding in the 6 Nations - they hold one seventh of it, and paid £365m for that.

They don't earn anything from Ireland (or any country's) ticketing revenue. They'll get their return from trying to drive up the value of the 6 Nations - which is predominantly by boosting the value of the broadcast deals etc, but also from growing commercial partnerships, sponsorships etc.

Given they made their investment in the midst of COVID, when the unions needed cash pretty desperately, I would wager they feel they got their shareholding on the cheap, but I don't see any link to the IRFU ticketing strategy. The issue there, for me, is there is excess demand. Rugby is very popular right now, and the Aviva is a bit undersized.

Ardillaun

As a tourist to Ireland these days I am struck by how litigious the country has become in this century. Even politicians threaten lawsuits over fairly anodyne comments (which I will not repeat, mods) and everyone seems sensitive about their reputation. However, persons officiating rugby matches seem to be an exception to this trend. They come in for dog’s abuse on Internet forums, often to an unintentionally comic degree, and are regularly accused of bias or worse. Have any of them sued over this kind of thing and is there any move to try and make the world a kinder, gentler place for them?

hibknight

I know this has been talked about in other threads before but is there no realistic chance of any redevelopment to Lansdowne Road to increase capacity and potentially allow for some of the tickets to become cheaper?

It is quite mad that we now have the smallest stadium in the six nations and will sell out each home game every year but are still down by 16k seats to the next smallest stadium Murrayfield. It must really make a difference having such a smaller capacity and that will drive up the prices.

Even Italy now playing in the Olympico they don't always sell out in the 6 nations but they will still likely have more in attendance that when we sell out.

France even when they moved our game to the Vélodrome a couple of years ago that had 67k seats.

I think the stadium is one of the biggest issues for us, we have to maximise revenue in a smaller stadium therefore the prices are always going to be so high. I'd hope at some point there can be redevelopment to get more people in and increase the hospitality areas that charge a fortune and maybe that would have a trickle down effect on the prices.

Wishful thinking but I do think the stadium is a problem.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004048#Comment_124004048

i remember thinking at the time that the 'new' stadium wouldnt be worth all the work involved seeing as the overall capacity was only going to barley increase (i think by 500 possibly? although obviously now an all seater), much as the facilities in the old stadium definitely needed upgrading

i may be misremembering but i think the reason given for having one end (north?) lower than the others was to minimise blocking light to neighbouring houses

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004176#Comment_124004176

The Old stadium had been out of date for decades and even now for b8ggest games you will still have some corporate facilities on matchday off site in marquee in grounds of Marion college.

The North stand is so low because of houses behind it. There is back gardens of houses backing onto the boundary wall of the stadium at north end of the groyne.

Stanley 1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004314#Comment_124004314

The owners of these houses sought to demand approx one third of the reality price back in the CT days, via collective bargaining, IRFU would not pay the premium, those houses dropped like a stone during the Celtic Pussy years but will have recovered since, I believe that end can be built up should IRFU buy up all the properties.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004366#Comment_124004366

They have allegedly been buying up any houses in havelock square as they come to market but I still dont see any changes happening. Irfu cash is OK but can fai co finance it and will government aid them in process much? I'm not sure.

On another note between pro games I've worked at, games I've been a ref or touch judge at and then other games I've been a spectator at. Tonight I'll attend my 75th game of the season. Nuts j know but...

Stanley 1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004400#Comment_124004400

FAI cannot be trusted in any circumstances, Delaney used to call it his stadium and ran a scam on the ticketing which blew up in his face using a known UK charlatan and nobody has been charged with anything.

Only deal is direct with the Govt as the guarantor and FAI on a "pay as you go" tenant, they even did not pay the cops for a long time, Govt showing little resolve to punish them or bring criminal charges to Delaney.

darkened_scrum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004400#Comment_124004400

Some going, and it's only November!

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004517#Comment_124004517

Thanks. Think record nu.ber I attended in a season was 160 about 10 years ago but I'll smash that if I keep going at rate I'm doing. Joys of working the way I do.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124002713#Comment_124002713

6 Nations arrangement w CVC shouldn't have much to do with ticket prices for Autumn games. But there's a bit of knowing your audience here. Obviously anyone travelling to Chicago from Ireland has plenty of disposable income but I was struck by the class homogeneity of the travelling fans. It was a bit like a Ross O'Carroll-Kelly sketch, except with these guys all in their 50s and 60s. It's not just well off Irish people, it's a very particular set of well off Irish people. With only 50k tickets for sale, and probably far fewer than that once the sponsors take their share, there's a large group of older Irish men with plenty of money to take these tickets at whatever price. Not a singer among them though.

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004048#Comment_124004048

I admire your optimism re ticket prices but trickle down economics doesn't work. Greed gets in the way.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004048#Comment_124004048

The problem is basically entirely down to the houses in this red area.

Its about 10 houses on O'Connell Gardens, 5 on East Havelock Square, and 5 on South Havelock square - around 20 houses in total.

In a rational country the government would have CPO'd the tiny number of houses for the benefit of the nation / national infrastructure.

But in Ireland that doesn't happen, so instead the IRFU has been very slowly, house by house, trying to buy them over the years. But given a house comes on the market once in a blue moon, this process is going to take decades.

ersatz

Probably 20-25m worth of houses. Alternative was to cannabalize the Landsdowne pitch, which should have been considered during the last rebuld.

PMC83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124006128#Comment_124006128

Rúaidhrí O'Connor saying he he was told at a press conference this week that there was zero scope to extension in the next ten years. I'd be very surprised if it ever happened.

https://youtu.be/cxRqgNRwArY?t=2682

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124007693#Comment_124007693

How long do you think it would take to recoup the costs of buying them out?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004400#Comment_124004400

In the short to medium term I would say they will try develop Havelock into corporate or spectator facilities.

That end should really still be a terrace for rugby.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124008789#Comment_124008789

I think they've given up on that plan.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124008789#Comment_124008789

Not very long at all, even with very conservative maths.

Say an extra 20,000 seats. Even just 5x sell outs for rugby per year would be 100,000 seats, at 100euro a ticket average would be 10mn a year in extra revenue. Not all of that profit obviously, but it still would make a 20mn, or even 30mn or 40mn outlay, very worthwhile financially over any sort of investment period.

(and nevermind the non-financial growing the game benefits, benefits for fans, better match day experience etc on top)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124007693#Comment_124007693

They did consider that as far as I know, but couldn't make the dimensions required for four full stands work even with the Lansdowne pitch space utilised.

CatFromHue

One of the houses is up for sale at the moment. 875,000 is the listing price and needs a bit of work done to it too.

9 Havelock Square, Sandymount, Dublin 4, D04FD78 is for sale on Daft.ie

So yeah buying them out would be an expensive undertaking.

It's not a perfect stadium but by far the best option available at the time. A new stadium in Abbotstown, or Saggart where the FAI thought they might build one, could be bigger but you lose out on the match day experience. Not to mention how do you actually get there on the day.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124011796#Comment_124011796

It also means rebuilding a significant part of the stadium, and im sure there's still a hefty nut on the original build.

Lost Ormond

speaking as someone whos spent far too many hours in the stadium. there isnt a hope they will build anything at the north end. even if they were able to buy all the houses in o connell gardens and havelock square necessary for a rebuild.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124008795#Comment_124008795

there wont be a terrace even for rugby games as you can charge more for seats and it would be same attendance numbers as seats as you might get rail seating at best.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124012559#Comment_124012559

No, all IRFU debt from the redevelopment has long been paid off.

The full stadium redevelopment was €410mn with the government covering €191mn of that, but even at that the remainder was still paid off quickly.

But that just shows how ridiculous development being held up for 20 houses is, even financially - the cost of buying them isn't remotely prohibitive. The IRFU has no debt and cash reserves of over €60mn presently, a fraction of which which would easily cover the cost.

Bear in mind too when I said 20,000 extra seats being used for five games a year thats an incredibly conservative estimate. The Aviva hosts about 10 rugby and 10 football games a year. And usually a few gigs, but the additional seating capacity for those may not be as useful - it would depend on stage design / placement. So 100k extra seats sold across a year is likely a very low ball figure.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124012588#Comment_124012588

No it wouldn't be the same numbers. Terraces fit way more in every sport including the levels of soccer that allow it.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124012619#Comment_124012619

If you want to buy those houses you'd have to strongly incentivise the owners to sell. They're probably all around a million each as it is so you have to double or more the price to get the owners interested. That could be that 60m all gone. Even then they might just not want to sell as they like living there and the plan only works if they all sell.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124012638#Comment_124012638

As soon as it becomes public knowledge what the IRFU/FAI are up to those prices will go mad especially for the last few hold outs.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124012620#Comment_124012620

seats wont be removed as they have to be there for soccer internationals and it would be cost prohibitive to be removing them and adding them for every soccer/rugby international. as i said the best you might get is rail seating in places which would allow people to stand and that rail seating is the same capacity as if everyone sits.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124012684#Comment_124012684

Amm it was done for years in Lansdowne Rd.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124012686#Comment_124012686

Completely different case now and the stadium is all seater and wont be changing from that. only place you might get standing section/terrace is north stand but thats it.

Pete_Cavan

Apparently the IRFU already owns many houses around the stadium already;

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/iproperty-radio_revealed-the-irfus-multi-million-euro-dublin-activity-7342450034623324160-BZRK