Kerry footballers smash someone's head in. €400 fine.

ineedeuro

JCDUB wrote: »

From the Irish Times:

"Mr O’Connell said Mr Buckley’s “teaching career is in jeopardy” as a conviction would stay with the young men, who had learned a lesson."

This man actually wants to become a teacher, a role model, somebody for young people to look up to. What a start to his career.....

The sad thing is there are principals around Kerry (and probably beyond) who will line up to take him in.

Outside Kerry? no
In Kerry? yes

stooge

Swap the 2 kerry footballers for 2 inner city dublin unemployed of similar age and I would imagine the punishment would have been jail time.

This is probably the main thing driving the debate here. Should personal character/value to community etc have any bearing on sentencing and conviction? Or should the law be more black and white? i.e. a crime is a crime and the punishment applied according to the crime, not the person committing it.

They pleaded guilty and were convicted and are appealing the result.
What a sensible system we have that that's a possibility.

ineedeuro

Deleted User wrote: »

They pleaded guilty and were convicted and are appealing the result.
What a sensible system we have that that's a possibility.

At least they pleaded guilty
https://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/healy-rae-brothers-found-guilty-of-assault-38729355.html
Not like this shower of sc*mbags

whippet

I understand the anger at the relatively lenient punishments here ... however .. if they were drug addicts with 50+ convictions they probably would have been given another chance without the fine or having to put forward compensation.

handlemaster

handlemaster wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/kerry-footballers-who-assaulted-local-musician-will-appeal-convictions-40570521.html

Are actually appealing. The victim where is he in all this. 400 euro fine no time in prison and appealing the conviction .

Hopefully their sentence is increased

fly_agaric

The court was told that the defendant’s friend had engaged in some “tomfoolery” with the two older men as the two groups passed.

Youthful "tomfoolery" or was it "high jinx"? :rolleyes:

rightmove

Montage of Feck wrote: »

There is a horrible meaness currently in the GAA. Win at all costs even if you have to resort to "puke football" and cynical dirty tricks. This is also being pushed at underage levels so it's little wonder that sportsmanship is a foreign idea to many young lads.

Baseless statement. I see the opposite esp at under age level

ineedeuro

Montage of Feck wrote: »

There is a horrible meaness currently in the GAA. Win at all costs even if you have to resort to "puke football" and cynical dirty tricks. This is also being pushed at underage levels so it's little wonder that sportsmanship is a foreign idea to many young lads.

What are you talking about?
Only for the GAA we would have more obese kids than already around Ireland. They do excellent work all over Ireland for the kids and that should not be forgotten

The DayDream

The DayDream wrote: »

2 20 something athletes beating the shoite out of a middle aged man for fun. They barely got punished, only a fine and they only barely got a conviction recorded, almost dodged that except the judge actually bothered his hole 5o watch the CCTV.

No other country are serious unprovoked assaults not met with jail time and then monitored probation.

It's well known in Ireland that due to lack of prison space, once you pay compensation and have no previous, you never go to prison.

This happens across the country, all the time.

When they appear without compensation its usually adjourned to allow them the chance to gather it.

It's like our only solution to this type of case due to our prison capacity and if you were personally assaulted you better hope they're willing to pay you as the sentence alternative wont amount to very much(due to spacing).

coolisin

Listen all for the GAA enjoy watching matches and all that it has done for various places all over the country.

However this sh1t of these where good lads, played a few good games for the kingdom in the article and now the cheek to appeal a light sentence. Nah f**k off.
That goes for all players and role models, you can be a tough prick on the pitch leave it there.

This mans kids where scared of his face after you punched him in it, you did that much damage to a middle age man his kids wouldn't touch him. I cannot imagine the upset that caused.

This case of they are from a good family, with good prospects is not the first time that defence has being given, but it needs to be stopped.
Same with the racist lad tweeting at Ian Wright, "ah sure hes a grand lad when you look past the nazi memorabilia on his wall"

whisky_galore

whippet wrote: »

I understand the anger at the relatively lenient punishments here ... however .. if they were drug addicts with 50+ convictions they probably would have been given another chance without the fine or having to put forward compensation.

One would assume this pair were from educated well off backgrounds who wanted for nothing and had every advantage in life and who should have known a lot better.

ineedeuro

whisky_galore wrote: »

One would assume this pair were from educated well off backgrounds who wanted for nothing and had every advantage in life and who should have known a lot better.

and?
Not sure what point you are trying to make

cms88

Heraclius wrote: »

They did get convicted though. Do you have any evidence to back up that generalisation?

Of course they don't

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

I thought they pleaded guilty?

How can you appeal a conviction when you pleaded guilty in the first place...?

whisky_galore

ineedeuro wrote: »

and?
Not sure what point you are trying to make

They have no excuses and potentially more to lose by acting like animals.
Drink is a pretty lame excuse.

Radio5

'Clannish, parochial, It is their realm and anybody that does well in it in any shape of form especially in the likes of sport or business is lauded like a golden God?'

That could refer to Cork or Limerick or any county for that matter, not exclusive to Kerry at all.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I thought they pleaded guilty?

How can you appeal a conviction when you pleaded guilty in the first place...?

Because the truth doesn't matter with the law. Judges are our betters, we aren't to question their decisions.
There's a phrase often published in my local paper with a couple of judges. "Facts proven, case dismissed." I've seen it for shoplifting, smashing up cars, driving without insurance and up to an assault. I remember my dad reading out a story where there were a dozen charges (driving related) and yeah, facts proven, case dismissed.
In this case it looks like the boys were told "Plead guilty and you'll just get the probation act" and it backfired. A different judge and they may well have gotten away with it. Generally judges don't like appeals which might go against them on their appeal but a friendly judge will sort them out.

Northernlily

whippet wrote: »

I understand the anger at the relatively lenient punishments here ... however .. if they were drug addicts with 50+ convictions they probably would have been given another chance without the fine or having to put forward compensation.

Scenario based on my observations.

Average Joe with no sporting pedigree who works hard and pays taxes on a moderate income. Has a nice home and a new wife. Things are looking good for him. Never in trouble before. Has a few drinks and gets in a row and assaults someone to a similar level of damage. From what I have read over the years average Joe is looking at jail time. Nothing to be gained from him and let's take him down a peg.

Now someone with sporting pedigree or a junkie from the inner city will get a conviction and a slap on the wrist. No jail time though.

The junkie especially, is good for business as will likely be through the courtroom door once again for his free legal aid.

There is a real problem with sentencing bias in Ireland. In my opinion decent people who make a mistake are more likely to have correct sentencing applied for the gravity of the situation.

Does anyone actually stand back and review the performance of judges?

cruizer101

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I thought they pleaded guilty?

How can you appeal a conviction when you pleaded guilty in the first place...?

I assume it is just the sentence they are appealing, they will still plead guilty but just want to be able to get away with a fine and not a criminal conviction.

Fingers crossed they get a lump of community service added to the current sentence but if they are lucky and get a Kerry GAA fan as a judge they may well get it reduced which is what I'm guessing they are hoping on

whippet

whisky_galore wrote: »

One would assume this pair were from educated well off backgrounds who wanted for nothing and had every advantage in life and who should have known a lot better.

define not wanting for nothing ? money, love, stable family, childhood trauma ...... equating having a stable wage coming in to a house hold is by no means an indication of the quality of life growing up.

MoonUnit75

cruizer101 wrote: »

I assume it is just the sentence they are appealing, they will still plead guilty but just want to be able to get away with a fine and not a criminal conviction.

Fingers crossed they get a lump of community service added to the current sentence but if they are lucky and get a Kerry GAA fan as a judge they may well get it reduced which is what I'm guessing they are hoping on

Surely it's the actual conviction they are appealing, even though they plead guilty! What I am reading is that the conviction will harm their careers and we can't be having that now can we. It was just a violent unprovoked assault.

It's very interesting the third person isn't named as a witness or participant, even though it was their 'tomfoolery' that kicked it all off. Things that make you go 'Hmmm'.

It sounds like the judge wanted to let them off but was afraid the CCTV would end up in the public domain showing the unprovoked and vicious nature of the assault; 'would love to let you off lads, but you were just unlucky to get caught on video'.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

cruizer101 wrote: »

I assume it is just the sentence they are appealing, they will still plead guilty but just want to be able to get away with a fine and not a criminal conviction.

Fingers crossed they get a lump of community service added to the current sentence but if they are lucky and get a Kerry GAA fan as a judge they may well get it reduced which is what I'm guessing they are hoping on

Don't see how you can not get a criminal record for assault, regardless of the judge. This could backfire on them big time.

ineedeuro

whisky_galore wrote: »

They have no excuses and potentially more to lose by acting like animals.
Drink is a pretty lame excuse.

The issue is nobody has any excuse. Doesn't matter what your background is.

End of story.

Arturo Delgado

Justice system here is a joke, as a general rule. Ok, let's not be sensationalist. Too lenient is what I should say. The Americans, for all their faults, look very dimly on crime, and ate generally much quicker to hand out custodial sentences for what here would pass for the 'ah shure twas a bit of drink and divilment' stuff that passes through the judicial system every single day.

silver2020

When I saw this I presumed that the DPP would have appealed the leniency of the judge and requested a prison sentence even if that sentence was suspended.

To see these two appeal a conviction and a paltry fine simply beggars belief.

It would be justice to see their appeal backfire.

whippet

Northernlily wrote: »

Scenario based on my observations.

Average Joe with no sporting pedigree who works hard and pays taxes on a moderate income. Has a nice home and a new wife. Things are looking good for him. Never in trouble before. Has a few drinks and gets in a row and assaults someone to a similar level of damage. From what I have read over the years average Joe is looking at jail time. Nothing to be gained from him and let's take him down a peg.

Now someone with sporting pedigree or a junkie from the inner city will get a conviction and a slap on the wrist. No jail time though.

The junkie especially, is good for business as will likely be through the courtroom door once again for his free legal aid.

There is a real problem with sentencing bias in Ireland. In my opinion decent people who make a mistake are more likely to have correct sentencing applied for the gravity of the situation.

Does anyone actually stand back and review the performance of judges?

Can you link to a similar case where someone was jailed for getting in to a row on the street similar to these lads ?

ineedeuro

You can go around this in as many directions as possible but the biggest issue is Ireland has no space to throw these people into jail. So of course the judges are going to let them go because if they did put them into jail they would end up in some Garda station while they tried to find a place for them

The public should be demanding another jail built ASAP

fly_agaric

ineedeuro wrote: »

You can go around this in as many directions as possible but the biggest issue is Ireland has no space to throw these people into jail. So of course the judges are going to let them go because if they did put them into jail they would end up in some Garda station while they tried to find a place for them

The public should be demanding another jail built ASAP

I suppose one could minimse sending more people to prison by making more use of punishments like restrictions on movements, tagging/signing on, fairly lengthy spells of community service work etc.
Just an idea (don't know if such punishments are regularly used - I think not but am not certain, seems like prison it is also very resource intensive + would cost more money and take much more effort for Ireland's justice system than dishing out fines and suspended sentences).
You'd need the threat of a fast trip to prison to serve the rest of the "sentence" if the offender breaks it though. Not having spare prison space available to actually carry out that threat would make it pointless.

ineedeuro

fly_agaric wrote: »

I suppose one could minimse sending more people to prison by making more use of punishments like restrictions on movements, tagging/signing on, fairly lengthy spells of community service work etc.
Just an idea (don't know if such punishments are regularly used - I think not but am not certain, seems like prison it is also very resource intensive + would cost more money and take much more effort for Ireland's justice system than dishing out fines and suspended sentences).
You'd need the threat of a fast trip to prison to serve the rest of the "sentence" if the offender breaks it though. Not having spare prison space available to actually carry out that threat would make it pointless.

We could, but that would mean more investment in the services which doesn't seem to be a priority. Installing tagging etc would mean they need people to monitor, will they try and get an already underfunded Gardai to do it?

The problem here is that people know the threat doesn't actually exist, hence why you have criminals racking up 100's of crimes and still not anywhere near a jail.