RTE announce multi million euro investment in Longwave transmissions

Bradford West Irish

Tomorrow is the day that a multi million euro refurbished of the the Summerhill LW mast begins, this was officially announced by RTE last Friday lunchtime (see RTE press releases). Kudos to RTE for closing dead and buried DAB and investing in a proven technology that can be heard from Goleen to Glasgow

Flowras

It's a shame 2rn don't livestream the work on YouTube

StaticNoise

Genuine question here:

I understand that DAB was not what people hoped, and how, for a variety of reasons, it never took off here. But why is there such an investment in LW? At a time when the broadcaster is facing incredible financial challenges, why are they keeping LW going?

In an era of digital services, why is this getting covered off? There is a strong coverage of FM and AM services to the masses across the nation, and where internet is available, it's quite easy to find a plethora of services from RTÉ online.

Surely "the diaspora" is no longer an excuse? What are the core reasons for this?

StaticNoise

StaticNoise wrote: »

Genuine question here:

I understand that DAB was not what people hoped, and how, for a variety of reasons, it never took off here. But why is there such an investment in LW? At a time when the broadcaster is facing incredible financial challenges, why are they keeping LW going?

In an era of digital services, why is this getting covered off? There is a strong coverage of FM and AM services to the masses across the nation, and where internet is available, it's quite easy to find a plethora of services from RTÉ online.

Surely "the diaspora" is no longer an excuse? What are the core reasons for this?

The diaspora is the only reason, RTE tried to close Longwave a few times during the the 2010s but they backed down after politicians & the print media accused them of cutting off "vulnerable" "lonely" ex pats in GB. There is a theory that the people who contacted the politicians and print media to kick start the fuss did so out of an anorak love for Longwave and Atlantic 252 rather than a genuine concern for imaginary oaps listening in Camden town but surely the politicians and papers carried out due diligence?

StaticNoise

I'm very fond of radio, to say the least. I was simply a bit unsure about the logic behind it all, but as you say, it is in fact simply the diaspora. I believe that the clause and requirement in the Broadcasting Act is absolutely bonkers and I cannot believe that RTÉ need to do this. It's something so out there for a broadcaster of their nature to have to do at this time. Internet exists, LW is simply no longer relevant. I'd argue that certain services should be retained (like BBC World Service) for remote parts of Africa, Asia - but RTÉ for the diaspora in the UK? Get real.

Atlantic 252 was special. So we're the super pirates. But we've moved on. I love nothing more than the concept of pirates across the FM band. But, I'd prefer if the national broadcaster didn't spend tons of money on a medium that is not fulfilling a strong need.

Thank you for the reply.

Thank you for the clarification.

watty

StaticNoise wrote: »

Genuine question here:

I understand that DAB was not what people hoped, and how, for a variety of reasons, it never took off here. But why is there such an investment in LW? At a time when the broadcaster is facing incredible financial challenges, why are they keeping LW going?

In an era of digital services, why is this getting covered off? There is a strong coverage of FM and AM services to the masses across the nation, and where internet is available, it's quite easy to find a plethora of services from RTÉ online.

FM doesn't have 100% coverage.
LW is the only RTE AM, and there is only one other quite low power religious station on MW near the border, or there was.
Internet is fragile and the first to fail in any kind major problem.
Loads of people can't access broadband, or even good enough Mobile Internet.

reboot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117455652#Comment_117455652

Tend to agree, LW may be of use if your in a submarine,whereas dab had many useful channels,even if you couldn't receive them?🐳

reboot

It's hard enough these days to buy a portable radio with even an earphone jack socket,as they expect you to use Bluetooth, even if it doesn't travel more than a few yards,with no tone control info.

How long will they include LW?

At one time we did debate the US satellite radio system.

Sorry to reopen an older thread, but I was just thinking in light of what's going on in Ukraine, it does show the importance of retaining at least one site that's capable of transmitting powerful AM radio signals from a national security perspective.

While it might have seemed like an utterly ridiculous argument a few weeks ago, and I would sincerely hope it always will be an extremely remote possibility, it does show how you can't necessarily rely on more complex networks and particularly not IP streaming services always being available.

I would strongly argue that retaining at least minimal AM service should be something that's seen as a national security issue and also probably retaining a couple of transponders on Astra 28.2ºE wouldn't be a terrible idea - even if they're re-leased to someone else, but on the basis that they could be used in Ireland for a national emergency situation.

I'd also wonder are we doing any kind of security review of FM and UHF DVB-T sites? Even just to ensure they've proper uninterruptible power supplies at main sites etc.

Same should probably be looked at around key mobile telephony and internet infrastructure. We used to take this stuff a lot more seriously in the 1970s/80s. Most of it is just about robust design rather than retrofitting things. It's something for example that should be looked at in the build out of the new fibre networks.

L1011

All broadcasters are required to have non-mains backup power at transmission sites and studios as per licencing.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118802628#Comment_118802628

That is interesting, particularly given recent events.

It's a pity we don't have any real journalists who would probe RTE about this massive expenditure just 22 months ago.

dxhound2005

The first line of enquiry would be why the poster closed their account after just 2 posts. And what was their motivation for describing the work as being a multi million euro investment in Longwave. They did not attach the RTE Press Release, which is clearly about an Essential Maintenance job, and does not mention any figure never mind multi millions.

They misrepresented the issue for whatever reason. The fact that the transmitter is closing now, would not take away from the need for essential maintenance in 2020, put back to 2021 because of Covid. Unless some real journalist can discover that there was no need for the work to be done.

https://about.rte.ie/2021/06/11/essential-maintenance-of-rte-longwave-transmitter/

Sam Russell

But there is a point in having an AM transmitter available in the case of national emergency. Of course, most recent AM radio receivers do not support LW.

Of course, LW would be good if the Gov would issue a very cheap LW receiver to be used in such emergency, like they did for the Euro/IR£ converter when we converted to the Euro, or the iodine tablets for protection from the likely Sellafield meltdown (they are now well past their use by date).

dxhound2005

A better investment would be to install sirens around the country. You can see examples on YouTube from earthquake and tsunami prone areas. And I know they are a thing in Switzerland. Back in the day, it would have made sense to broadcast emergency messages on what was the only station at the time.

Now with the media being so disparate, it would be less effective. As well as the sirens, all other available systems could be used. But sirens are the only way to guarantee that everyone will take heed.

Even now, church bells could be used to some good effect, with a bit of publicity now and again to alert the public to their possible use for emergency warnings in future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oy7Ap7dshs

Emblematic

Is there an emergency alert system in Ireland? Everybody's mobile phone would sound an alarm and display the emergency message. Operational in some countries.

AM and other bands would be useful for ongoing information though.

dxhound2005

You can see in the tsunami siren videos how people react immediately to the sirens, and move quickly. It catches the attention of a large area immediately, and doesn't rely on people having their phones nearby. They can resort to all available communications afterwards to see what is the emergency.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120431216#Comment_120431216

What sort of emergency are you contemplating that would require such a system?

dxhound2005

None. We don't need anything. I was just responding to the suggestion that the governments should give everyone a Longwave radio.

TAFKAlawhec

For modern governmental systems to alert its populace to varying natural & man-made warnings, the key to getting the needed message(s) out is to use the popular technology of the time - essentially no different to those in the private sector disseminating information or entertainment of their own. AM radio still has its uses in some locations around the world especially where listeners still regularly listen to station on those bands (and by that I mean actually listening to a MW or LW broadcast, not an alternative method), like the Australian outback, and where no comparable system is in place either for cost or logistical reasons. But Ireland, while having plenty of places "in the back arse of nowhere" has no real wilderness areas where you can be tens of kilometres from anyone else at any one time, nor does it regularly suffer from extreme weather events, suffer regular significantly damaging earthquakes or have volcanic activity. The FM broadcast radio network (both PSB & commercial in the country) has as close to full coverage as practical from at least one station in weak but listenable mono reception, the three MNOs have wide coverage across the country, and in the very few places where there are total FM radio & mobile reception blackspots, in most cases satellite reception is available for both broadcasts and internet use where a landline or fixed wireless service isn't available. Nearly every household has at least one FM radio receiver, the vast majority have an active mobile telephone on them, and in some cases the two are combined - it therefore makes sense in Ireland to base any warning system on this as well as announcements on TV channels.

The idea of keeping an AM transmitter (or transmitters) in place for such emergency broadcasting in somewhere like Ireland is rather quaint, but it's not the 1980's or even 1990's. It's 2023. MW & LW radio is no longer relevant to all but a small few people in Ireland. As for sending out LW or MW radios for a potential catastrophic emergency, first you'll want to make sure that quality control of the radio is good - you don't want people not having used them in years suddenly putting in a fresh pair of batteries to find out they don't work because of poor quality components failing over time, placed in humid environments leading to corrosion etc. and besides they're unlikely to be kept in a grounded metal box that acts as a Faraday cage - if an EMP pulse takes out electronics over a very wide area, then most such radios are f****d anyway (unless it's using valves instead of transistors - highly unlikely these days)! It's also not a great idea of "keeping all eggs in one basket" - top priority emergency systems are designed to have multiple points being required to fail before operational failure actually occurs. If you're relying on one MW or LW TX to distribute emergency communications from a government, then that is an easy vulnerability to be attacked from an enemy. OTOH many people are using FM radios and mobile phones or a regular if not day-to-day basis. The average Irish person know that this equipment can work when it's needed to.

While we can all point to the lack of knowledge of certain politicians (YMMV), professional people across the world that plan and design such systems for their own countries at national and local levels are not idiots. They are constantly learning and keeping up to date with what is the best way to disseminate messages of varying importance as time goes on. The USA have their EAS, and quite an extensive system they have too, with traditional local "entry points" usually being clear-channel AM stations largely for the practice of receiving to relay alerts via other channels - but they simply don't rely on those AM radio stations to do the heavy lifting for them, that's why CONELRAD was already considered insufficient by the early 1960's. In addition, the UK government is to shortly do an emergency alert test based on the GSM Cell Broadcast standard (already used in several countries inc. the USA), they're not telling people to keep a radio handy to tune in to either 198, 693 or 909 kHz.