practices in society that make no sense

alexdlinz

I was watching a documentary about the Scandinavian's and how very different their criminal justice system is from the Americans and even here.

They actually build decent prisons that foster good mental health and a desire to be productive. They also focus on rehabilitation as opposed to solely punishing individuals. No surprise they have a low recidivism rate.

Yet America thinks that incarcerating people for something drug possession, giving them a felony record which makes them ineligible for 90%+ jobs in the country, and then releasing them is a good idea.

Many things wrong with society apart from this.

biko

alexdlinz wrote: »

I was watching a documentary about the Scandinavian's and how very different their criminal justice system is from the Americans and even here.

They actually build decent prisons that foster good mental health and a desire to be productive. They also focus on rehabilitation as opposed to solely punishing individuals. No surprise they have a low recidivism rate.

After a few years, how many are back behind bars?
Finland 36%
Denmark 29%
Norway 20%
Iceland 27%
Sweden 43%

According to this
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivism-rates-by-country
recidivism rate for Ireland and US is quite similar at just above 50%

AlfaZen

alexdlinz wrote: »

I was watching a documentary about the Scandinavian's and how very different their criminal justice system is from the Americans and even here.

They actually build decent prisons that foster good mental health and a desire to be productive. They also focus on rehabilitation as opposed to solely punishing individuals. No surprise they have a low recidivism rate.

Yet America thinks that incarcerating people for something drug possession, giving them a felony record which makes them ineligible for 90%+ jobs in the country, and then releasing them is a good idea.

Many things wrong with society apart from this.

I saw a good documentary a while back on how the state of the prison system in the US can be linked back to slavery.

After emancipation it was very likely that Blacks would be sent to penal labour for even the most minor of offences. There was a need for certain kinds of labour and they found this as a way to supply it.

The legacy of this is still felt in the US today.

banie01

biko wrote: »

After a few years, how many are back behind bars?
Finland 36%
Denmark 29%
Norway 20%
Iceland 27%
Sweden 43%

According to this
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivism-rates-by-country
recidivism rate for Ireland and US is quite similar at just above 50%

So barring Sweden, the decrease in recidivism in Nordic countries is massive compared to Ireland/US at @50% and even Sweden's recidivism rate is less than 80% of Ireland's!

Norway for example, for every 100 people who serve a sentence in Norway, 20 reoffend and are imprisoned again.

Versus Ireland where the recidivism rate is 55%.
Meaning for every 100 people who serve a sentence 55 are convicted again.

Those numbers don't reflect the justice system alone, it must be considered IMO that Scandanvian society is far better geared towards support, rehabilitation and reintegration rather than punishment for punishments sake.

That said, it won't be long until Norway have to face releasing Brevik.

Dyr

AlfaZen wrote: »

I saw a good documentary a while back on how the state of the prison system in the US can be linked back to slavery.

A good documentary on the US prison system? I doubt one exists

Car99

Fitting separate hot and cold taps to a sink. No sense whatsoever .

Hyperbollix

alexdlinz wrote: »

Yet America thinks that incarcerating people for something drug possession, giving them a felony record which makes them ineligible for 90%+ jobs in the country, and then releasing them is a good idea.

Like most things in America, the prison system has been privatized to a large degree. Big government contracts for private companies means getting as many into jail as possible is big business. What happens to them after that is of no concern. Just hose down the cell and get the next prisoner customer in.

Claw Hammer

the real issue is how many are caught and sent to prison in the first place. A lot of criminals here are never caught.

Thelonious Monk

Claw Hammer wrote: »

the real issue is how many are caught and sent to prison in the first place. A lot of criminals here are never caught.

Maybe, but we seem to be doing ok with not locking everyone up for minor charges and not having our police shooting people willy nilly. Ireland is still a very safe country to live in. I don't think moving to a US system of justice administration, which many on these forums would seem to prefer, would improve society at all.

Thelonious Monk

The adherence to Catholic ceremonies in Ireland makes no sense to me given we seem to have very few practicing Catholics these days yet people still have their kids baptised and confirmed and so on.
Given how they tried to control us and keep us down for centuries why would you want anything to do with that organisation, which is based on made up stories anyway?

riclad

This is because the church still owns most primary, secondary schools, its easier to go along with it than to protest about it,
The church serves a social function for weddings and funerals too.
I think many women like a big wedding in a church.
There's not that many independent non Catholic schools in most areas

Detritus70

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The adherence to Catholic ceremonies in Ireland makes no sense to me given we seem to have very few practicing Catholics these days yet people still have their kids baptised and confirmed and so on.
Given how they tried to control us and keep us down for centuries why would you want anything to do with that organisation, which is based on made up stories anyway?

The invisible sky-fairy cult in general makes zero sense these days.
I get that thousands of years ago "magic man in the sky did it, now live a life of pain and misery until you die at 38" was a good enough explanation.
But since we have better explanations now, there's no need for a stoneage cult.
And what's worrying is the fact that some people cling to it harder than ever before, almost like six year olds.

The One Doctor

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The adherence to Catholic ceremonies in Ireland makes no sense to me given we seem to have very few practicing Catholics these days yet people still have their kids baptised and confirmed and so on.
Given how they tried to control us and keep us down for centuries why would you want anything to do with that organisation, which is based on made up stories anyway?

Plenty of things are based on made up stories and we have no problem with them. TV, books, art... the list goes on, and influences us and our society every day. Yet you complain about a institution that runs on made up stories that join us together, help us manage grief and give us joy?

(I'm an atheist btw, I just find your above statement illogical.)

ShatterProof

biko wrote: »

After a few years, how many are back behind bars?
Finland 36%
Denmark 29%
Norway 20%
Iceland 27%
Sweden 43%

According to this
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivism-rates-by-country
recidivism rate for Ireland and US is quite similar at just above 50%

Guards just haven’t caught the other 50% yet

Thelonious Monk

The One Doctor wrote: »

Plenty of things are based on made up stories and we have no problem with them. TV, books, art... the list goes on, and influences us and our society every day. Yet you complain about a institution that runs on made up stories that join us together, help us manage grief and give us joy?

(I'm an atheist btw, I just find your above statement illogical.)

They treated the Irish people, especially the poor and vulnerable, like scum. They never gave me or anyone I know any joy.

whisky_galore

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

They treated the Irish people, especially the poor and vulnerable, like scum. They never gave me or anyone I know any joy.

A hypocritical cult that revels in guilt and misery, unable to live up to its own standards with regard to those it damaged over the years.

The One Doctor

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

They treated the Irish people, especially the poor and vulnerable, like scum. They never gave me or anyone I know any joy.

Ever been to a wedding or baptism? Perhaps a communion or confirmation, by any chance?

ClosedAccountFuzzy

In the comparison with the United States the incarceration rate per 100,000 compared with to any European country is just off the scale.

Sweden: 68
Denmark: 68
Germany: 69
Ireland: 74
France: 93
England & Wales: 130
USA: 639 !?!?!

Recidivism here seems in line with much of Central Europe and lower than England and Wales.

So for our recidivism level, you need to scale that up by 860% to get to the US level.

Our system is not as good well put together as the Scandinavian ones in terms of rehabilitation, but it’s absolutely not remotely comparable to the US.

You could definitely compare it to Scotland, Northern Ireland, France, the Benelux countries, Germany etc though.

Where we need to improve on is rehabilitation and social intervention. Our socially services and social protection measures wouldn’t likely be at Scandinavian levels at all. So you could probably end up in crime driven by broader factors than just the prison and justice system.

El_Duderino 09

Bambi wrote: »

A good documentary on the US prison system? I doubt one exists

It might be the one about the 13th amendment to their constitution.

13th amendment: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

So they outlawed slavery, then made slavery OK for prisoners and passed laws and enforced laws to imprison loads of black people to work as slaves. They created a mythology about black people being predisposed to criminal behaviour through movies and culture (the Birth of a Nation movie where the black lad tries to rape a white woman so she throws herself off a cliff rather than be raped by a black man) and then locked them up and got slave labour out of them for things like loitering.

Really good documentary
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt5895028/

https://www.google.com/search?q=13th+(film)+videos&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&sxsrf=ALeKk03Zn1rSTMLnS83VXILOnFRN5mHJjg%3A1622465806914&ei=Dt20YNGEN6-NhbIPsNKQ8As&oq=13th+amendment&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAEYATIECAAQRzIECAAQRzIECAAQRzIECAAQRzIECAAQRzIECAAQRzIECAAQRzIECAAQR1AAWABgo6QDaABwAngAgAEAiAEAkgEAmAEAyAEIwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgVuLVT9c3NEw2sUhJMzU3ecTozS3w8sc9YSmnSWtOXmO04eIKzsgvd80rySypFNLjYoOyVLgEpVB1ajBI8XOhCvHsYuIMKcsNy0xJzS9exCpkaFySoaCRlpmTq6lQBhYEANyiWbCAAAAA&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwirweyq_PPwAhXZQUEAHYGFCDYQw_oBegQIEBAC

topmanamillion

banie01 wrote: »

That said, it won't be long until Norway have to face releasing Brevik.

While Brevik was only sentenced to 21 years (the maximum in Norwegian law) there's a preventative detention element to the sentence as well which means they can detain him as long as they feel he's a danger to society.

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

So barring Sweden, the decrease in recidivism in Nordic countries is massive compared to Ireland/US at @50% and even Sweden's recidivism rate is less than 80% of Ireland's!

43/50 = 86%

namloc1980

Car99 wrote: »

Fitting separate hot and cold taps to a sink. No sense whatsoever .

Isn't that to do with that way Irish houses were built in the past with hot water immersion tanks? Cold water comes from the mains and is drinkable etc. However water in the immersion comes from the cold water tank in the attic and wasn't considered safe to drink so the systems were separated to prevent cross contamination at a mixing tap.

Things have moved on and many newer houses in the last couple of decades have closed boiler systems and mixer taps and advances in plumbing valves/regulations etc.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

I’m not quite sure what the penchant for retro plumbing in Ireland and Britain has to do with recidivism?

Do people get convicted just so they can finally use mixer taps?!

Mixer taps were slow to take off here because of weird exceptionalism and paranoid and illogical, make it up as you go along vague regs. They are now used all over the place on exactly the same plumbing we’ve always had. There was just some notion taken by someone not to install them. I suppose some ancient plumbing tradition…

Car99

The One Doctor wrote: »

Ever been to a wedding or baptism? Perhaps a communion or confirmation, by any chance?

The joy from such events is from the gathering of family and friends not the sacrament.

dxhound2005

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

I’m not quite sure what the penchant for retro plumbing in Ireland and Britain has to do with recidivism?

Mixer taps were slow to take off here because of weird exceptionalism and paranoid and illogical, make it up as you go along vague regs. They are now used all over the place on exactly the same plumbing we’ve always had. There was just some notion taken by someone not to install them. I suppose some ancient plumbing tradition…

Some members of society may think retro plumbing practices make no sense. So they are not straying away from the subject of the thread.

tDw6u1bj

Car99 wrote: »

Fitting separate hot and cold taps to a sink. No sense whatsoever .

Water tanks in the attic being a requirement instead of rising mains is crazy outdated.

It's the root of why we have two taps, but also why we fart about with pumps, we have crap showers, why you can't drink from all your (cold) taps, why we have electric showers, problems cause with combi-boilers, why you have to wait several minutes if you need to give your toilet a second flush and why in a lot of houses running a bath means soaking in brackish water.

Gradius

whisky_galore wrote: »

A hypocritical cult that revels in guilt and misery, unable to live up to its own standards with regard to those it damaged over the years.

They'll be saying that about current ideologies in years to come too.

Housing springs to mind, children and unnecessary surgeries, preaching from the mount on offensiveness etc

Thelonious Monk

The One Doctor wrote: »

Ever been to a wedding or baptism? Perhaps a communion or confirmation, by any chance?

Honestly apart from my own communion and confirmation, where I enjoyed being showered with money, I've never been to a baptism or religious wedding. I have no friends that got married in a church, all civil ceremonies.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

The mixer thing is largely just a UK and Irish notion. The British regs were far stricter on banning it, to the point that they had kitchen taps with two holes at the nozzle so the water came out scalding at the front and freezing wt the back, sort of like stripes in toothpaste. This ensures maximum impracticality.

You just had notions here that it looked nicer to have two taps and various things like that.

Mixer in kitchens have been standard here since the 1960s.

There’s absolutely zero logic as to why they wouldn’t be used in bathrooms etc. The water supply coming from an attic tank, though an immersion etc is all the same pressure and same source.

Domestic hot water isn’t generally considered to be ideal for drinking, anywhere.

Our attic buffer tank systems are very much a creature of bonkers British designs though. You’ll find them in older buildings in NZ etc too.

Plumbing in these islands has a bit of a mad Victorian inventor vibe to it.

I’m not aware of anywhere other than here and the uk that came up with the idea of storing hot water in an uninsulated copper cylinder (they like like a whiskey still) and then insulating it by putting a badly fitted fibre glass jacket on it?!

Utterly daft systems.

Jequ0n

Car99 wrote: »

The joy from such events is from the gathering of family and friends not the sacrament.

There is nothing joyous about it
Each of these events is nothing but an ego show

JustAThought

Rural traffic news for obscure parts of
the country being broadcast in capital cities hundreds of miles away.

Six figure salaries for RTE ‘celebs’. Never made sense, never will.

tDw6u1bj

The requirement for all apartments to be dual-aspect.

It's something that makes apartment building much less practical and more expensive than they should be.

Jequ0n

Victim impact statements in court

Geuze

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The adherence to Catholic ceremonies in Ireland makes no sense to me given we seem to have very few practicing Catholics these days yet people still have their kids baptised and confirmed and so on.
Given how they tried to control us and keep us down for centuries why would you want anything to do with that organisation, which is based on made up stories anyway?

People chose to have their children baptised.

Jesus isn't made up.

EmmetSpiceland

Geuze wrote: »

People chose to have their children baptised.

Jesus isn't made up.

Gotta have the “big day out”.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

Jesus isn't made up.

Debatable. What is certainly made up is his biography.

tDw6u1bj

A last building regulation on -

No power sockets in bathrooms.

There's no real safety argument when things are RCD protected (and arguably it was never that big a problem anyway). It's certainly safer than an electric shower (which a lot of folks from outside Ireland rightly consider to be a bit mad). I also like the common continental layout where smaller homes will have the washing machine in a bathroom.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Gotta have the “big day out”.

Peer pressure and traditions that become embedded in culture can be long lasting.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

A last building regulation on -

No power sockets in bathrooms.

There's no real safety argument when things are RCD protected (and arguably it was never that big a problem anyway). It's certainly safer than an electric shower (which a lot of folks from outside Ireland rightly consider to be a bit mad). I also like the common continental layout where smaller homes will have the washing machine in a bathroom.

Talk to any Brexiteer electrical non-expert. They’ll assure you that every day millions of Swedish people are electrocuted in their bathrooms by lethal non-British ‘Schuko’ plugs and sockets. They are just too small, too convenient and don’t even stab you in the foot properly if you leave them on the floor.

This is one of the many reasons cited for leaving the EU.

dxhound2005

alexdlinz wrote: »

I was watching a documentary about the Scandinavian's and how very different their criminal justice system is from the Americans and even here.

They actually build decent prisons that foster good mental health and a desire to be productive. They also focus on rehabilitation as opposed to solely punishing individuals. No surprise they have a low recidivism rate.

Yet America thinks that incarcerating people for something drug possession, giving them a felony record which makes them ineligible for 90%+ jobs in the country, and then releasing them is a good idea.

Many things wrong with society apart from this.

Plumbing for a start. Or maybe that should belong in the Things You Just Don't Get... thread.

tDw6u1bj

The One Doctor wrote: »

Plenty of things are based on made up stories and we have no problem with them. TV, books, art... the list goes on, and influences us and our society every day. Yet you complain about a institution that runs on made up stories that join us together, help us manage grief and give us joy?

(I'm an atheist btw, I just find your above statement illogical.)

I think I missed that bit in Harry Potter where he and Ron kidnapped thousands of vulnerable young mothers and kept them as slaves for decades while their children were either sold or died of neglect before being shoved into septic tanks.

...but I was never that big a harry potter fan either.

whisky_galore

People building new houses large enough to accommodate a small army, despite having only 2.5 kids.

Gradius

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Peer pressure and traditions that become embedded in culture can be long lasting.

Traditional mainstream religions can certainly be viewed from an agnostic point of view. Maybe true, maybe not, no proof either way.

But "peer pressure" is 100% spot on in terms of enforcing ideology.

There are current belief systems that are contrary to every single shred of evidence, not simple a case of "maybe". They are enforced by closely controlled communication methods (RTE, here, newspapers) and so it is necessary to speak in couched terms lest you be "banned" for going against the grain.

Lunacy and madness.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

whisky_galore wrote: »

People building new houses large enough to accommodate a small army, despite having only 2.5 kids.

Measuring houses in bedrooms instead of square meters (or any sensible unit of area).

Whether the bedrooms are big enough to fit a bed into is irrelevant.

dxhound2005

whisky_galore wrote: »

People building new houses large enough to accommodate a small army, despite having only 2.5 kids.

Used to be 8 children in 2 rooms. Now it's 2 children in 8 rooms.

whisky_galore

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Peer pressure and traditions that become embedded in culture can be long lasting.

Tradition. Peer pressure from dead people.

tDw6u1bj

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Talk to any Brexiteer electrical non-expert. They’ll assure you that every day millions of Swedish people are electrocuted in their bathrooms by lethal non-British ‘Schuko’ plugs and sockets. They are just too small, too convenient and don’t even stab you in the foot properly if you leave them on the floor.

This is one of the many reasons cited for leaving the EU.

Ugh, the mediocre UK plugs is a whole other thing. We seem weirdly attached to those though.

sprucemoose

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

The requirement for all apartments to be dual-aspect.

It's something that makes apartment building much less practical and more expensive than they should be.

thats not what the reg is at all (as has been discussed elsewhere). the practicality and cost argument is also (largely) untrue

Jerry Attrick

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

I think I missed that bit in Harry Potter where he and Ron kidnapped thousands of vulnerable young mothers and kept them as slaves for decades while their children were either sold or died of neglect before being shoved into septic tanks.

...but I was never that big a harry potter fan either.

And there was I thinking that it was the parents of those vulnerable young mothers whose lack of compassion or fear of 'what the neighbours would think' compelled many of those young women to go into mother and baby homes.
And let's not forget about the ones who had been impregnated by their own relatives.

Gradius

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

And there was I thinking that it was the parents of those vulnerable young mothers whose lack of compassion or fear of 'what the neighbours would think' compelled many of those young women to go into mother and baby homes.
And let's not forget about the ones who had been impregnated by their own relatives.

People, emphasis on plural, are quite zombie like. They are quick to cast off responsibility. When the penny drops later they'll all be up in arms, naturally all a-flutter about how it was "obviously" wrong.

Institutions eventually reflect the people that compose them.

A monolithic semi-deity such as the internet is a simple swap for a church, except in many cases even stranger.

One egregious example is that some followers will righteously mutilate their own children because the boy might be a girl, and the girl might be a boy. Against all common sense, against all hard scientific reasoning.

Wait until that hits the courts in x years, it'll make the mother and baby homes seem quaint.

And so on and so forth with many other ideologies that have been birthed via the internet. Funny how there's a sense I might be banned for mentioning anything like this...

I see sheep

Having kids?