Mods please check the Moderators Group for an important update on Mod tools. If you do not have access to the group, please PM Niamh. Thanks!

Belarus force down Ryanair plane

124»

Comments

  • #2


    listermint wrote: »
    Once again. Il ask. Do you have any real evidence of .

    1. He has any Nazi connections.
    2. That is even him in this images that just surfaced.

    I'm asking because it seems you are quite happy to talk unknown Twitter sources trading back to anti EU accounts as gospel. Which I find quite unusual. I would have assumed truth seeking and mistrust of source material was a go to thing.

    That's him in the photos ffs there are several different photos of him and no denials from anyone on his side. The NY times printed his involvement in azov before later deleting it


  • #2


    listermint wrote: »
    Once again. Il ask. Do you have any real evidence of .

    1. He has any Nazi connections.
    2. That is even him in this images that just surfaced.

    I'm asking because it seems you are quite happy to talk unknown Twitter sources trading back to anti EU accounts as gospel. Which I find quite unusual. I would have assumed truth seeking and mistrust of source material was a go to thing.

    https://twitter.com/ColborneMichael/status/1397248936570667009?s=19


  • #2


    Scoundrel wrote: »

    Okay , that doesn't make him a Nazi though. It does mean that be fought / was there against the russian occupation of Ukraine. That's all this proves.


  • #2


    The change of topic and conversation from Belarus's actions to the victims political views is deliberate.


  • #2


    listermint wrote: »
    Okay , that doesn't make him a Nazi though. It does mean that be fought / was there against the russian occupation of Ukraine. That's all this proves.

    Oh give me strength the azov battalion is widely recognized as a neo nazi organisation


  • #2


    The change of topic and conversation from Belarus's actions to the victims political views is deliberate.

    Yes God forbid people would have the full story on the "innocent journalist" .


  • #2


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    Yes God forbid people would have the full story on the "innocent journalist" .

    Surely whether he’s innocent or not is totally irrelevant. There is absolutely no justification for what they did. None!


  • #2


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    Yes God forbid people would have the full story on the "innocent journalist" .


    It doesn't change anything about the legitimacy of forcing down a plane. It's irrelevant to the action that was taken by Belarus. The guy's actions in Ukraine weren't even raised as a reason for the hijacking.


    When people use the term "innocent" with regard to someone who has been arrested, they usually mean innocent with regard to what the person is being accused of and not innocent in every other aspect of their lives.


    What is it that got you so wound up about this guy anyway that you felt the need to really go at it like that? I had read about the Azov ties through Bellingcat around three or four days ago but I didn't see how it was relevant to the hijacking. I know that the Russian propaganda outlets have been working their magic to get the permanently gullible to be outraged about it so I wasn't sure how long it would take to show up here.


  • #2


    It doesn't change anything about the legitimacy of forcing down a plane. It's irrelevant to the action that was taken by Belarus. The guy's actions in Ukraine weren't even raised as a reason for the hijacking.


    When people use the term "innocent" with regard to someone who has been arrested, they usually mean innocent with regard to what the person is being accused of and not innocent in every other aspect of their lives.


    What is it that got you so wound up about this guy anyway that you felt the need to really go at it like that? I had read about the Azov ties through Bellingcat around three or four days ago but I didn't see how it was relevant to the hijacking. I know that the Russian propaganda outlets have been working their magic to get the permanently gullible to be outraged about it so I wasn't sure how long it would take to show up here.

    Permanently gullible? Wow from someone who reads bellingcat that's hilarious. I think it is information relevant to the story as a whole I mean how is it not? He is being portrayed as an innocent pro democracy journalist the truth is of course far darker.


  • #2


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    Permanently gullible? Wow from someone who reads bellingcat that's hilarious. I think it is information relevant to the story as a whole I mean how is it not? He is being portrayed as an innocent pro democracy journalist the truth is of course far darker.

    You've fallen for the strawman propaganda. Therefore you are gullible.

    Kind of a text book example.


  • #2


    abff wrote: »
    Surely whether he’s innocent or not is totally irrelevant. There is absolutely no justification for what they did. None!

    If you mean not sufficient justification for his arrest and the manner they did it in that's correct, but then the EU tried a similar stunt with Snowden.

    If you mean a country cannot land a plane and have it inspected in their own country no matter what, then you are incorrect.

    Let's face it, it's pretty stupid for someone wanted by the authorities in a country to enter their territory and presume the authorities can and will do nothing about it. That's magical thinking.


  • #2


    Ah yes, the old "My opponents are nazis" defence so beloved of Putin and his cronies.

    It's especially rich when you consider Putin's Russia:
    • Power centred around an authoritarian leader
    • Rampant Nationalism
    • Obsessed with past grievances
    • A shadowy secret service
    • Little or no press freedom
    • Elimination of any real political opponents
    • Explicitly homophobic laws
    • Rampant corruption

    Every time he or his acolytes (Lukashenko, Asad, Orban) label someone a Nazi all I hear is projection, plain and simple.

    Not to worry though - they'll always have useful idiots like Mick Wallace, Clare Daly and others to steam into the debate with their Whataboutery in order to give them a free pass to continue acting like international vandals.


  • #2


    Have those photos been confirmed as genuine? Not to dismiss them out of hand, but the Russians are world masters of social media disinformation campaigns.


  • #2


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    You've fallen for the strawman propaganda. Therefore you are gullible.

    Kind of a text book example.

    It's not propaganda it's a simple reporting of fact Protasevich volunteered to serve with the Azov battalion a Nazi organisation surely in the context of this news story that is a fact worth reporting or should we never look into the past of those who are celebrated for being anti Putin or anti Lukashenko?


  • #2


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    It's not propaganda it's a simple reporting of fact Protasevich volunteered to serve with the Azov battalion a Nazi organisation surely in the context of this news story that is a fact worth reporting or should we never look into the past of those who are celebrated for being anti Putin or anti Lukashenko?

    You haven't looked into the past though you have however just been parroting images and then joining dots as if they are factual.


  • #2


    Even IF Protasevich is a Nazi, and even if an airline was directed to Vienna in the past, it does not make it right for Belarus to hijack an international commercial plane and force it down, with threats, into Belarus. There is no justification for the action.

    Meanwhile Russia is saying that the EU is putting passengers' lives at risk by avoiding Belarus airspace - they didn't specify exactly how - while simultaneously refusing landing to incoming flights.


  • #2


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    Permanently gullible? Wow from someone who reads bellingcat that's hilarious. I think it is information relevant to the story as a whole I mean how is it not? He is being portrayed as an innocent pro democracy journalist the truth is of course far darker.


    That line in bold is very revealing. It's up there with "White helmets are Al Qaeda" and "The Skripals weren't poisoned by the Russians". Russian propaganda isn't exclusively aimed at the gullible but the gullible overwhelmingly believe it. Like a 419 scam, Russian propaganda isn't even designed to be all that believable. It's often so absurd that it's more about sticking the middle finger up at the West than it is about actually convincing people to believe another narrative. They're not arsed at all about believability so I think it's a reasonable to say that those who believe it aren't playing with a full set.


  • #2


    That line in bold is very revealing. It's up there with "White helmets are Al Qaeda" and "The Skripals weren't poisoned by the Russians". Russian propaganda isn't exclusively aimed at the gullible but the gullible overwhelmingly believe it. Like a 419 scam, Russian propaganda isn't even designed to be all that believable. It's often so absurd that it's more about sticking the middle finger up at the West than it is about actually convincing people to believe another narrative. They're not arsed at all about believability so I think it's a reasonable to say that those who believe it aren't playing with a full set.

    The Skripals were of course poisoned by Russia who else would want to poison them? and I might add were poisoned in an amateur botch job as well.

    You seem to believe that the white helmets are selfless heroes when in fact they are connected to violent Jihadist organisations and work pretty much under their command in areas under their control. Bellingcat have been caught out lying dozens of times and are funded by organisation promoting western foreign policy.

    Just as Russia churns out propaganda for the gullible which you accuse me of falling for so too does the west which you most certainly have fallen for.


  • #2


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    The Skripals were of course poisoned by Russia who else would want to poison them? and I might add were poisoned in an amateur botch job as well.

    You seem to believe that the white helmets are selfless heroes when in fact they are connected to violent Jihadist organisations and work pretty much under their command in areas under their control. Bellingcat have been caught out lying dozens of times and are funded by organisation promoting western foreign policy.

    Just as Russia churns out propaganda for the gullible which you accuse me of falling for so too does the west which you most certainly have fallen for.


    We're making progress here. We've established some loose upper and lower bounds which is useful. I must apologise, though. Suggesting that you were a Skrypal truther was insulting. Still, you've displayed a certain hostility to Bellingcat which I find a bit puzzling. More relevant to the thread, you also feel that this guy hanging out with Ukrainian nazi types is important here. Out of curiosity, are you of the opinion that there were no chlorine attacks by Assad? Or we could save some time by you pointing out what Bellingcat were lying about.


  • #2


    We're making progress here. We've established some loose upper and lower bounds which is useful. I must apologise, though. Suggesting that you were a Skrypal truther was insulting. Still, you've displayed a certain hostility to Bellingcat which I find a bit puzzling. More relevant to the thread, you also feel that this guy hanging out with Ukrainian nazi types is important here. Out of curiosity, are you of the opinion that there were no chlorine attacks by Assad? Or we could save some time by you pointing out what Bellingcat were lying about.

    I don't know if there were chemical attacks or not but I do know there were whistleblowers inside OPCW saying there wasn't I do know there were buried reports from people who were on the ground. I do know that the so called Syrian rebels are a collection of Jihadist barbarians trained armed and funded by Turkey Qatar and others.

    Bashar Al Assads government is a brutal oppressive police state but it is the lesser of two evils and it is supported by the vast majority of Syrians there are no cuddly western democrats amongst the Syrian opposition.

    To get back on topic he wasn't just hanging out with Nazi types thats an insulting suggestion he was fighting with them and he travelled hundreds of miles to volunteer to fight with them.


  • #2


    The fact that he is or isn't connected to nazi's or whatever is just a strawman. It's strawman propaganda to deflect away from the fact that a country fabricated a fake bomb threat and sent a military fighter jet after a plane full of civilians forcing it to land and putting those civilians at risk. It doesn't matter if Protasevich was a tax evading, jaywalking, nazi, communist, warmongering, pedophile. It's just deflection away from the fact that what Belarus did was wrong, dangerous and illegal. And talkign about the Sowden thing in Austria is another strawman. Two wrongs don't make a right.


  • #2


    Belarus now preventing their own people from leaving the country, even, in many cases, if they have residency abroad.

    They claim to be doing this for Covid reasons but well....draw your own conclusions.

    link


  • #2


    Belarus now preventing their own people from leaving the country, even, in many cases, if they have residency abroad.

    They claim to be doing this for Covid reasons but well....draw your own conclusions.

    link

    Belarus has being doing that for a LONG time. In 2012 they reintroduceed serfdom, firstly in the state owned wood cutting industry and in 2014 the same law was expanded to the state collective farms.

    About 2 million Belarussians are effectively "owned" by the state.


  • #2


    looksee wrote: »
    Even IF Protasevich is a Nazi, and even if an airline was directed to Vienna in the past, it does not make it right for Belarus to hijack an international commercial plane and force it down, with threats, into Belarus. There is no justification for the action.

    Meanwhile Russia is saying that the EU is putting passengers' lives at risk by avoiding Belarus airspace - they didn't specify exactly how - while simultaneously refusing landing to incoming flights.

    Forcing down a presidential flight and detaining it for searching for a political refugee (snowden) is the perfect explainer for this.
    So what if a Ryanair flight had to make a landing, odds are that a Ryanair flight could have to make an emergency landing due to drunken rows and air rage anyway. Forcing a presidential plane to land for above reasons is far more damaging to democracy, transparency and freedom


  • #2


    Forcing down a presidential flight and detaining it for searching for a political refugee (snowden) is the perfect explainer for this.
    .....Forcing a presidential plane to land for above reasons is far more damaging to democracy, transparency and freedom

    This is classic Whataboutery
    So what if a Ryanair flight had to make a landing, odds are that a Ryanair flight could have to make an emergency landing due to drunken rows and air rage anyway.

    When a flight makes en emergency landing they typically seek the nearest suitable airport to land in. This flight was actually nearer to its scheduled destination, Vilnius, than to where it ended up being forcibly diverted to (Minsk).


    Interactive_Belarus_map_flightdeviation-01.jpg?w=770&resize=770%2C513


Sign In or Register to comment.