Overpaying Landlord? -RPZ

direstraits

Hi, I am hoping to get some advice here.

Renting privately for number of years, LL has increased the 4% on the button each each no issue there. However, we were paying him (Top Up) because at the time the RPZ came into effect, the LL wouldn't agree unless he was paid ''bit more'' which we agreed (verbally) with fear of losing home.

Now fast forward 2021, HAP Pay 1,553e every month to LL , we pay LL 253e per month.

I can't remember what was agreed at start but we now pay the increased contribution to our LL each year and it seems to be going up.

So to clarify;

Rent for home is 1,553euro which HAP pay in full. We then pay HAP a weekly contribution.

We pay our LL 253e per month, it has gone up by 60e each year he increases the rent.

I think we are well within our rights to STOP paying him any top up. Am I correct here?

Thanks

jimmycrackcorm

It sounds confusing. Are you paying more than 4%? Your rent is the HAP payment plus the extra you pay. What does your rental contract say what the rent is? Because that's the figure to base it on. It sounds as if though you agreed on a new rental figure just before the RPZ kicked in to block higher increases.

Smee_Again

When you moved in, what was the agreed rent? The HAP payment isn't the full rent, it's just the maximum contribution from HAP.

direstraits

Hi Thanks for the replies, sorry for the confusion.

We are living her since 2011, the LL bought the property of a family member (in 2015).

We don't sign a lease, as we are here that long, so I am going to say the rent is 1,553e per month.

The LL wants more than the 253e now as she said it goes up each year (like the 4% increase). Back in 2017 I think we started to pay like 150e extra a month. There is no agreement signed by me, i think the LL wants more from us aswell as getting 1,553e from HAP.

Smee_Again

Neither you or your landlord have done yourself any favours here. You can't just decide now the rent is €1,553 per month and, likewise, she can't just decide to up the rent without following the proper process.

This is one for the RTB to decide.

ted1

You are not correct.

Your rent is €1,806.
For the moment, forget about the 1553 figure.

What was your rent when you moved in? ( rent is the total money the landlord receives each month )

How long have you been there?

direstraits

ted1 wrote: »

You are not correct.

Your rent is €1,806.
For the moment, forget about the 1553 figure.

What was your rent when you moved in? ( rent is the total money the landlord receives each month )

How long have you been there?

Yes I think your right!

The rent when we moved in first was like, 1000e per month, when she took it over she raised it to 1,400e (and 4% of that each year).

our LL gets 1553e + 253e = 1,806e a month into her bank.

JimmyVik

Is the landlord adding 4% each year and the hap paying the same without increasing, so you have to make up the difference yourself?

MacDanger

direstraits wrote: »

Hi, I am hoping to get some advice here.

Renting privately for number of years, LL has increased the 4% on the button each each no issue there.

When the LL sends you notice of the periodic rent review, what does it state? That should clarify what the actual rent is

direstraits

MacDanger wrote: »

When the LL sends you notice of the periodic rent review, what does it state? That should clarify what the actual rent is

She sent it last week;

''the rent will increase from 1st of August 2021 and new rent will be 1,878e per month for 12 months up to 31st of July 2022''

Smee_Again

direstraits wrote: »

She sent it last week;

''the rent will increase from 1st of August 2021 and new rent will be 1,878e per month for 12 months up to 31st of July 2022''

How did she send it? There's a format she needs to use otherwise it is invalid.

In Rent Pressure Zones rents can only rise by up to 4% annually. The 4% cap applies when rents are set at the start of a tenancy and when rents are reviewed during an ongoing tenancy. To find out if your property or tenancy is in a Rent Pressure Zone, please use our Rent Calculator.
A landlord must tell the tenant what the amount of rent that was last set under the tenancy for the dwelling,
A landlord must provide the date the rent was last set under a tenancy for the dwelling.
A landlord must provide a statement as to how the rent set under the tenancy of the dwelling has been calculated having regard to the Rent Pressure Zone formula.
The rent set for the property must be in line with local market rents for similar properties, and three examples of rents for comparable properties must be used to show this.

LINK

direstraits

Smee_Again wrote: »

How did she send it? There's a format she needs to use otherwise it is invalid.



LINK

Sent it by e-mail, I informed her she also needs to send a calculation (from RTB website) as we are in RPZ zone. I am awaiting that from her.

MacDanger

direstraits wrote: »

She sent it last week;

''the rent will increase from 1st of August 2021 and new rent will be 1,878e per month for 12 months up to 31st of July 2022''

You can check here yourself to see if it fulfils the requirements for a legit rent review:

https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/setting-rent

But if it's all above board then I think you have to pay that amount. Do you have someone you can contact in HAP to query it with if you need clarification?

direstraits

MacDanger wrote: »

You can check here yourself to see if it fulfils the requirements for a legit rent review:

https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/setting-rent

But if it's all above board then I think you have to pay that amount. Do you have someone you can contact in HAP to query it with if you need clarification?

I have contacted a person dealing with my case.

I put the details into the RPZ calculator, she can increase to a maximum of 1,890e it seems. I will wait for the rent review (from HAP) and go from there...

Saudades

direstraits wrote: »

our LL gets 1553e + 253e = 1,806e a month into her bank.

direstraits wrote: »

She sent it last week;

''the rent will increase from 1st of August 2021 and new rent will be 1,878e per month for 12 months up to 31st of July 2022''

It sounds like you thought the landlord could only increase by 4% of your 253 contribution.

The landlord can increase by 4% of the total rent; your contribution + HAP contribution.

So the landlord simply increased using the sum of 1806 +4% = 1,878.24.

direstraits

Hi , okay sorry ill try t clear this up.

HAP paid our landlord 1,300e every month (2019 & upto august 2020) in August 2020 the HAP payment increased to the LL to 1,553 HOWEVER, we were still paying the LL the 253e (thinking they were still paying her 1,300e!)

So in essence; our LL from August 2020, was receiving 1,553e from HAP + 253e from us.

This was an error, I assume, on our part, we innocently though the HAP were paying her 1,300e, but in reality from (August 2020) she was getting full amount from HAP + 253e from us, of course she wouldn't query it!

Now it seems we wont get that money back

Smee_Again

When did you move in and what was the agreed rent? You said that the 4% increase was applied on the button so it should be fairly easy to work out if you've been over paying or not. It doesn't matter yet how much HAP pay and how much you pay because that's irrelevant to how much the rent can increase each year or rent review.

That's the first thing to do, and then if you have been over paying you start a conversation to get the money back.

gibgodsman

The Hap doesn't pay your Rent in full and never will, they pay the rent minus your weekly contributions, what is your weekly contributions?

meijin

direstraits wrote: »

Hi , okay sorry ill try t clear this up.

HAP paid our landlord 1,300e every month (2019 & upto august 2020) in August 2020 the HAP payment increased to the LL to 1,553 HOWEVER, we were still paying the LL the 253e (thinking they were still paying her 1,300e!)

So in essence; our LL from August 2020, was receiving 1,553e from HAP + 253e from us.

This was an error, I assume, on our part, we innocently though the HAP were paying her 1,300e, but in reality from (August 2020) she was getting full amount from HAP + 253e from us, of course she wouldn't query it!

Now it seems we wont get that money back

- what's the rent amount on the lease?
- do you have receipts or any confirmation of your extra payments?
- was it cash or bank transfer

if the total compared to the lease was overpaid, and you have some kind of proof of extra payments to the LL, you should be able to request refund, or go to RTB with that

direstraits

meijin wrote: »

- what's the rent amount on the lease?
- do you have receipts or any confirmation of your extra payments?
- was it cash or bank transfer


what's the rent amount on the lease? The rent in August increased to 1,553 as per the lease. We naively paid 253e as we thought the HAP still paying her 1,300e.

So as I said before; LL getting 1,553e from HAP + 253e from us= 1,806e.

We have all documents and bank details showing lodgements (transfer)


*Threshold (for what its worth) agreed that there was an overpayment and regardless of (who what when etc..) the fact remains the LL was receiving extra for the legal amount on the lease (no lease but meant the rent on this property).

We are owed close to 2.5k it seems.....

Op, the LA pay HAP up to a maximum for the area you live. If there was a shortfall on agreed rent, the tenant has to make up the difference by paying the LL directly. Whatever the rent was when RPZ legislation was introduced, if the LL has been raising TOTAL rent amount by the legal 4% max yearly, as HAP payment from LA does not increase, you, the Tenant are responsible for payment of the increased amount.

Using an example of LA paying €800 of a Total €1000 rent, you pay LL €200pm. As rent increases to €1040 after 1 yr, the amount you pay the LL goes to €240. After another year, rent increases to €1081.60, your payment to LL increases to €281.60 pm, and so on.

gibgodsman

I got a PM from him

It seems like Hap is only paying €843 of his rent and he is paying €717 per month with his weekly contributions to HAP, Hap is a max of €1560, so the difference between 1560 and what his actual rent is is what he has to pay the landlord extra every month

gibgodsman

gibgodsman wrote: »

I got a PM from him

It seems like Hap is only paying €843 of his rent and he is paying €717 per month with his weekly contributions to HAP, Hap is a max of €1560, so the difference between 1560 and what his actual rent is is what he has to pay the landlord extra every month

As long as LL is legally increasing the monthly rent by 4% yearly, I’m struggling to see how op thinks he/she is overpaying if op is paying the difference between HAP contribution and monthly rental amount.

If rent exceeds LA qualifying amount, that is not the LL overcharging, the LL is legally entitled to raise rent, the op has to find another property which falls within LA criteria for HAP payment.

gibgodsman

Dav010 wrote: »

As long as LL is legally increasing the monthly rent by 4% yearly, I’m struggling to see how op thinks he/she is overpaying if op is paying the difference between HAP contribution and monthly rental amount.

If rent exceeds LA qualifying amount, that is not the LL overcharging, the LL is legally entitled to raise rent, the op has to find another property which falls within LA criteria for HAP payment.

Simple answer is he is not overpaying, he was thinking Hap was paying 1560 of his rent a month without his contributions, which was incorrect, that simple really

direstraits

gibgodsman wrote: »

Simple answer is he is not overpaying, he was thinking Hap was paying 1560 of his rent a month without his contributions, which was incorrect, that simple really

So, if HAP were paying the LL, 1,553E a month, which they have in writing, we did make a contribution to HAP, yes.

But we also PAID our LL 253e. Does that make sense?

The rent was 1,553e in 2020. HAP paid that to him each month, we paid HAP our contribution, PLUS 253e into LL account.

direstraits

direstraits wrote: »

So, if HAP were paying the LL, 1,553E a month, which they have in writing, we did make a contribution to HAP, yes.

But we also PAID our LL 253e. Does that make sense?

The rent was 1,553e in 2020. HAP paid that to him each month, we paid HAP our contribution, PLUS 253e into LL account.

Do you know for certain how much the Local Authority is paying the LL in HAP payment? There may be a published maximum for your area, that does not mean the LA are paying that amount to the LL though.

HAP is an agreement between you and the LA, not between the LA and the LL.

You, as the Tenant, are responsible for payment of the shortfall between the HAP payment from the LA and the monthly rent. If HAP payment remains static, and monthly rent increases by 4% yearly, you pay the LL the 4% increase on the total rent, not the LA.

direstraits

Dav010 wrote: »

Do you know for certain how much the Local Authority is paying the LL in HAP payment? There may be a published maximum for your area, that does not mean the LA are paying that amount to the LL though.

HAP is an agreement between you and the LA, not between the LA and the LL.

You, as the Tenant, are responsible for payment of the shortfall between the HAP payment from the LA and the monthly rent. If HAP payment remains static, and monthly rent increases by 4% yearly, you pay the LL the 4% increase, not the LA.

I have a letter from HAP stating and i quote ''we will pay your landlord 1,553e (each month) in full from August 2020, your weekly contribution is xxx''

direstraits

direstraits wrote: »

I have a letter from HAP stating and i quote ''we will pay your landlord 1,553e (each month) in full from August 2020, your weekly contribution is xxx''

This seems at odds with info you gave gibgodsman by PM.

gibgodsman wrote: »

I got a PM from him

It seems like Hap is only paying €843 of his rent

direstraits

Dav010 wrote: »

This seems at odds with info you gave gibgodsman by PM.

Ahhh!

August 2020, HAP start paying the LL 1,553e in full, we paid her 253e aswell.

May 2021, HAP will pay LL 1,560e in full, we make a contribution of 55.12e

There is no-one trying to decieve or get something for nothing.

AGAIN, August 2020 HAP paid our LL 1,553 IN FULL, we paid her 253e too! She was getting 1,806e a month into her bank.

In an e-mail from HAP, they say no other rent due to LL, they are going to pay 1,560e and we will pay 55.12e. Thats equal to : 1,615.12, thats our new rent?

direstraits

Ok, for the purposes of clarity, leaving aside HAP/your payment, how much is the monthly rent charged by your LL assuming all rent increases have been the legal 4%? Is it €1553 or €1806 per month?

Your LA does Not set the rent.

Based on this, your current rent is €1806 and a 4% increase brings it to the stated €1878.

direstraits wrote: »

She sent it last week;

''the rent will increase from 1st of August 2021 and new rent will be 1,878e per month for 12 months up to 31st of July 2022''

direstraits

Dav010 wrote: »

Ok, for the purposes of clarity, leaving aside HAP/your payment, how much is the monthly rent charged by your LL assuming all rent increases have been the legal 4%? Is it €1553 or €1806 per month?

Your LA does Not set the rent.

Based on this, your current rent is €1806 and a 4% increase brings it to the stated €1878.

1,553e, that is what is on the rent increase letter for 2020, and that is what is sent into HAP for them to review.

This year 2021 (on the increase letter) is 1,615e, again that is what was sent into HAP for review.

direstraits

direstraits wrote: »

1,553e, that is what is on the rent increase letter for 2020, and that is what is sent into HAP for them to review.

This year 2021 (on the increase letter) is 1,615e, again that is what was sent into HAP for review.

So your current rent is €1615? And your rent review notice raises rent to €1878 for the next year beginning August 1st?

direstraits wrote: »

She sent it last week;

''the rent will increase from 1st of August 2021 and new rent will be 1,878e per month for 12 months up to 31st of July 2022''

direstraits

Dav010 wrote: »

So your current rent is €1615? And your rent review notice raises rent to €1878 for the next year beginning August 1st?

Sorry forget the 1,878e.

that was what the LL thought it was (they were combining 1,553 +253)

Our rent for 2021 is 1,615.12e

HAP are paying 1,560e we are paying 55.12e. to LL

Our contribution to HAP is 165e weekly,

direstraits

This is now resolved. Mods can lock thread.

Thanks for the help