Ending of the Common Agricultural Policy.

Say my name

I was just thinking of all that's happening on Twitterland and probably facebook.

You see these college educated so's in environmental science appearing now on social media and running down farmland.
They're running it down while themselves may have no land or a few acres.
I've no doubt some are being paid to do this and it's part of a wider movement facilitated by social media. Keeping one another going.

I know their spiel. And Greta Thunberg did it too attacking the CAP.

Isn't it really terrible though how they view food production as a sin.
Isn't it even worse that they want the CAP to not go to food producers but themselves and "wild" areas.

I'm not saying biodiversity shouldn't be encouraged but not to go to the other extreme and have food production discouraged.

Anyway just something that has become apparent to me very recently.

I'd rather have no CAP and control of my own land.

Say my name

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd rather have no CAP and control of my own land.

And now everyone else gets it and you've still no control..:p

I hear ya!

alps

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd rather have no CAP and control of my own land.

They'll have your CAP and still want to control your land. They've a fixation against farm and food production.

Lets be honest, the CAP should be focused at active farmers involved in eco responsible practices.

These armchair farmers drawing money or even worse guys renting out land and getting tax free money is a joke, would annoy anyone.

duffysfarm

True, i would too but the powers that be have made farming dependant on support snd subsidys so you cant just take it away and expect it to have no impact

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd rather have no CAP and control of my own land.

duffysfarm

duffysfarm wrote: »

you cant just take it away and expect it to have no impact

Of course there would be an impact. I believe we'd better our own position moving away from being solely a primary industry and start moving towards being actual business capturing that margin we're so good at complaining that others make. It wouldn't be easy but I think it would be a significantly more positive position to be in. Our dependence, addiction, to CAP is the biggest problem we have. It makes us such an easy target for anyone with an agenda, "You get public money......."

And yes, lots of other sectors get public money too in other ways, but no one gives a sh1t when that's offered as a counter argument.

alps

alps wrote: »

They'll have your CAP and still want to control your land. They've a fixation against farm and food production.

I agree. However without such a dependence on CAP it makes us as individuals harder to manipulate. No tap to turn on and off.

Siamsa Sessions

I think part of the issue is that those so-called environmental experts are not happy with the modern world. And in fairness, it ain't exactly a nice place at times.

But they are taking aim at an easy, very visual target. It's simple to portray farmers as the pantomime villains who are destroying the environment just to make themselves even more rich. It's hard to develop an understanding of how the industrial revolution (and the agricultural revolution before that) changed how society functions. It's also hard to see the geo-political impact of what CAP does. And that's ever before you look at globalisation and the concentration of power into smaller and smaller groups of business/political entities.

Much easier to say farmers spread slurry into rivers and cram little cute baby calves into cages on ships.

The judge in the Glanbia/An Taisce case summed it up well. He said An Taisce's beef (pardon the pun) was with Government policy, not the new cheese plant. Did they lobby Government TDs or stand for election themselves? No, they took the easy option and found what's essentially a loophole that allows them to exploit the letter of the law, rather than live by the spirit of the law.

Markcheese

My usual line is if you want to make farming more environmentaly friendly ,make it more worth a farmers while to farm that way - and less worth his while to farm another .. but those changes will take time -
The optic of farming isn't always great though - and putting effort into giving out about your detractors is rarely worth the effort -

MIKEKC

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd rather have no CAP and control of my own land.

The vast majority would be out of business if that happened. Most beef and sheep farms eat into payments to keep going

MIKEKC

MIKEKC wrote: »

The vast majority would be out of business if that happened. Most beef and sheep farms eat into payments to keep going

We don't appear to be "in business" in the first instance.

Waffletraktor

Well sold, is better then better grown.

Mad_maxx

as an outsider but who lives in rural Ireland and who worked on a big farm down under years ago , i think the CAP is as safe as houses , getting rid of CAP would suit those who want a post 1984 New Zealand style factory farming model but that idea is becoming less admired

the thinking of late is far less capitalist , as bone headed as they are , the Green party want to preserve the small family farm and this is the case across Europe , there is definately a push back against the American style expand expand expand approach

as such state subsidies are here to stay in agriculture though enviromental policies will be a much bigger feature , even the Green party are wiped out here at the next election , Green policies are here to stay

MIKEKC

Deleted User wrote: »

We don't appear to be "in business" in the first instance.

Probably not but we are continuing to live from our farming enterprise..

MIKEKC

MIKEKC wrote: »

Probably not but we are continuing to live from our farming enterprise..

Only by kowtowing to the agendas of politicians, lobby groups, and civil servants. We are too exposed, and easily and effectively attacked through threats against CAP. Rules and regulations are increasing at pace, the pie is ever diminishing through external convergence, PESCO, changing want's of the EU, while retooling of existing monies puts cost along with them (eco scheme etc.) And if you don't like it, no scheme for you!

I don't like it.

kk.man

I have no issue with CAP going but Europeans are going to have to pay more for food which I don't see. Money from Europe in the future will be environmental schemes which will probably reduce the forage area of Europe which in turn will reduce the amount of livestock and tillage thus increase the price of the commodities by default.

jaymla627

kk.man wrote: »

I have no issue with CAP going but Europeans are going to have to pay more for food which I don't see. Money from Europe in the future will be environmental schemes which will probably reduce the forage area of Europe which in turn will reduce the amount of livestock and tillage thus increase the price of the commodities by default.

Maize has gone to 300 euros a ton on spot market and soybean over 500, a short sharp shock to the system re food prices climbing might focus a good few minds, dairy beef etc are going to have to climb pretty significantly once autumn/winter sets in as the price of producing them will be sky high, no farmer will be able to carry the can re grain prices and only getting 4 euro a kilo beef/34 cent a litre milk

Birdnuts

jaymla627 wrote: »

Maize has gone to 300 euros a ton on spot market and soybean over 500, a short sharp shock to the system re food prices climbing might focus a good few minds, dairy beef etc are going to have to climb pretty significantly once autumn/winter sets in as the price of producing them will be sky high, no farmer will be able to carry the can re grain prices and only getting 4 euro a kilo beef/34 cent a litre milk

Agri commodity prices are closely linked to oil prices that have increased sharply on the back of production cuts in Saudi etc. Intensive farming systems are most exposed as they require the most inputs. Add in the amount of money printing going on around the world then you have the makings of an inflationary bubble coming down the tracks

Bass Reeves

I see IFS is running around trying to rent mob at the ministers meetings and hijacking them, it a disgraceful show here with the IFA speaker introduction at the meeting turning into a platform against the present proposals. Surely he should let the floor put there opinion forward to the minister. I sure they had plenty planted in the meeting to ask questions.

https://youtu.be/0NKOapn64e0

its lazy journalism as well. Describing the protests as large. 100 protestors outside meetings described as large and this in the areas where most of the opposition to the proposals are.

It time agri journalists stopped kowtowing to the IFA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066255#Comment_118066255

There's one thing I'd agree with in there, there aren't enough options in the Eco schemes.

Like environmentalists and others, that mans biggest problem is the word "our". Our hills, our bogs, our money, all the same type of flawed thinking.

Thought the Minister handled it well.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066255#Comment_118066255

Journalists see them as the only farm organisation that are working for farming/ farmers.

An organisation that punches way above its weight unlike the rest

You're only shooting yourself and every farmer in the foot with your comments

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066917#Comment_118066917

All the above is rubbish. IFA was out taught and out caught by the INHFA on this CAP. Now it is running around like a headless chicken after virtually none of it's positions have had a positive outcome.

It's continual harping on about commercial farmers as if only those on high payments were commercial farmers. It's complete failure to recognise that those on these higher payments have had them for twenty years and now it is time to give other farmers a chance to survive.

If they are commercial they should be looking at the market to increase returns

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069492#Comment_118069492

Farmers are entitled to protest against the changes, even if it is only 100 farmers doing it.

As an organisation they've decided to oppose them,

We opposed them in 2013 and it definitely lessened the cut's massively on farmers like myself that worked hard up to and through the reference years.

They weren't out thought by anyone, it's just that the reference years are less relevent now.

It was nice to have sooooo much for 20 years

We had plenty like you against us in 2012, but the joke was on them in the end

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069492#Comment_118069492

Re your last line, I think Beef Plan tried that in 2019 🤣🤣😂

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069653#Comment_118069653

You're starting to sound like IFA now.... don't for one moment believe that what happened 2 years ago made any difference to the price now.

markets always have gone up and down..... look at the lamb trade and there was no idiotic protests

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069659#Comment_118069659

If you were ever on any of the national commitees you'd know that unless the commitees passed it as policy it wouldn't be lobbied for.

Whats happening is those concerned about their future happen to be on commitees and are opposing it. those members opposing IFA have let it happen by lack of involvement and maybe laziness. If I was there I'd be opposing it too and I certainly wouldn't be looking for a job...... the opposite in fact. I never wanted to be taking jobs that no one else would do.

Between the main commitees(beef dairy and sheep) there could be 250 + probably mostly better farmers deciding policy, you'd want to be a bit sad if you thought you'd get a plum job out of any of the work you'd be doing.

Make no mistake it's all thankless work, it's just that anything to do with CAP reform is more thankless than the rest

Bass Reeves

Really good article in the FI today. Some tough love from Darragh McCollough for commercial farmers and those complaining about the redistribution of payments.

https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/comment/darragh-mccullough-is-this-common-agricultural-policy-cap-the-fairest-ever-40983811.html

one or two interesting things to note. Greening is not only flat rated it is also decoupled from BPS. If you fill out a Area aid form and carry out your eco practices you will receive the eco payment accross all the hectares put in to Area aid.

If a farmers opt for eco payment it will be 63/HA. However assuming only 85% claim payment will be 75/HA.

It means BPS value will fall sharply, average payment will be sub 200/unit. With higher units values converging to that 300-350/unit will be tops value wise. Even leasing value will be impacted. As Eco will now be decoupled from your BPS unit leasing/sale value will be impacted

Danzy

Lenin reportedly said 'the worse, the better".

I feel that way about things now, COVID has brought a lot of problems to a head.

Relying on Just in Time manufacturing and outsourcing jobs and factories all to Asia has really hit Europe and America hard.

Handing over energy security and supply to Russia has hit Western Europe very hard.

Both play into fertilizer shortages, which will show the world that food production is more essential than iPhone production etc.

That many industries are actually nationally strategic and shouldn't be in opponents hands.

That some things are bigger than the bottom line and need planning for regardless of the short term market gain.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077435#Comment_118077435

Sale value of ebtitlemens was always rubbish, 20% to national reserve and 33%CGT on the rest, I won't be crying if they're taken off me. I'll just be trying to ensure that those that have mine rented end up with them.

Renting them out is unlikely to be tolerated from now on unless due to force majuere.

€25000 reduction here from 2010 to my forecasted payment in 2026........ no wonder the farmers are protesting.

Thank God I didn't pull some poor hoor into a farming partnership

Dickie10

so if we were to look at the macro view on CAP payments changing, I see our Minister is advocating 60k cap on all payments to irish farmers. would this have a disastrous effect on tillage farmers just at the moment we may need them more than ever to have a supply of home grown animal feeds? three neighbouring tillage men would have SFP of over 150k one of them was 230k i think, same man would own about 150 acres. tough to make tillage pay without that behind you. on diesel alone, how many times would you drive around a 20 acre field to get a crop of barley from harvest to harvest?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118083045#Comment_118083045

CAP shod be treated as an income support not as a production support. Farmers that have has large payments have had 18 years to reposition there business. A lot of these larger payments if they are not holding onto it as profit are only siphoning it back to machinery dealerships, merchants and millers. If you cannot produce it at a profit let someone else at it.

Producing for the sake of production impoverishes other farmers

Dickie10

as far as i make out 2 out 3 are actually in big financial difficulty so they definitley are not set up for this by the looks of it, but i really dont know. get the feeling a lot of tillage men that are at it in a big way from 1970s will scale back or pull the plug over the next few years around here anyway. what effect will this have on land rental prices? woudnt be big dairy ground here.

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118083045#Comment_118083045

Any man that’s being given €60,000 a year, every year, to support his business and says he still can’t make it pay shouldn’t be in that business in the first place.

On top of that any man that was handed €230,000 a year for the last almost 20 years, that now claims can’t make his business pay when that’s reduced to €60,000, should never have been allowed into that business in the first place as he must never have had the required knowledge, organisation or skills to run it. The biggest problem CAP created with big payments like that was keeping poor operators going in a business they were never fit to be in all along.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118083088#Comment_118083088

One of my tenants has about thirty tractors and has branched away from agri work a bit, it looks like the way to go. A couple friends work for him on the agri side and claim that there's some mornings you wouldn't get a tractor in the yard..... the non agri side is so busy.

I'm sure if the profit is taken out of tillage he'll just rethink his operation.

The other big tillage operator here is developing his third 500 cow dairy herd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118083088#Comment_118083088

Fischler said exactly that, the SFP was the income for the farmer, the farm paid for itself.

Dickie10

yeah not too many keen to go into cows here even though both farms ithout the rented ground they take would be big dairy farms if they wanted , all in one block both.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087020#Comment_118087020

If he had 230k from the start that is 4.6 million over 20 years. Take 50k/ year out for income support. 3.5 million over that time would have bought you at least 200 acres of land. If he had 150 acres of his own he would have 350 acres, even at drystock with a 60 k capped payment you make a really decent living from that amount of land

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118092527#Comment_118092527

Worth noting that for 3.5mn in cash invested you'd want more than a really decent living.

Get rid of it, I'm in beef and I just give it away in tax.

Mind you, I spend very little only on labour efficiency.

Spend the money on grants for new farming ideas

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118092870#Comment_118092870

I am giving the example where he wanted to remain in farming. Like I posted that option would have secured his future whether he decided to remain in Tillage, Drystock would be the lowest profit operation, but if he opted for dairying on even a 2-300 acre farm he would turn a huge margin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118092876#Comment_118092876

At that scale you go into a company setup. I be surprised if a tillage farmer and that size operation he was not incorporated anyway. You have dairy farmers with only 100 cows going for a company setup.

He also had the option over the last twenty years to diversify outside of farming.

maestroamado

i know little about farming but i think i should post what i see.

Person has just small parcel of meadow land for privacy around house, let to 3 different farmers over a period of 10 years and none of them looked after it so he decided to go in new direction.

Decides to plant native IRISH trees and at the moment the application is being processed... The farmers each side who spread slurry every year both objected, they also cavessed other neighbours to object including an elderly neighbor (80+) who is related to one of the families 5 objections in total.

It looks like that license be granted...

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118093099#Comment_118093099

TBH if a neighbour applied for permission to plant native forest along any of our boundaries I would object too. I've seen the destruction to grassland that shading (from sunlight) causes with both deciduous and evergreen trees. There is also a acute risk of acorn poisoning to livestock.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118093913#Comment_118093913

The person is actually pleased they objected as these people are putting out slurry every year which is causing damage, they never cared that this piece of land was getting damage but when it went in a direction that not in keeping with the thinking lodged objection. now if the license is granted he can go ahead as if he was approached with solution from a farmer would not have applied for planting...

Its surprising that the farming groups cannot stop this if acorns from trees is killing animals... This is Government led scheme so it seems surprise they promote this as the land will still have animals with the trees...

Are you sure of your facts about acorns...

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118094122#Comment_118094122

What do you mean when you said the farmers were causing damage when spreading slurry.

Plants that cause livestock poisoning -https://www.nadis.org.uk/disease-a-z/cattle/plant-poisoning-in-cattle/

Markcheese

Well luckily acorns don't fall far from the trees , plus it'd be a long time before the oaks would be big enough to shed acorns over the hedge - it's a valid concern though ,and easy to remedy in mixed planting - just plant a row or 2 of some other tree type on the bounds ditch ..

If there's lots of tanins in acorns I assume they're quite bitter - would the cattle have to be quite hungry to eat a lot of them ?

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118094323#Comment_118094323

I think its pretty well known that slurry damages farmland if it has slurry every year... also sometimes it can leech into watercourses... I suppose it really depends on the farmer....

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118094358#Comment_118094358

I be surprised if cattle eat them but i suppose if no other food anything possible... i also think the Government and the farm organizations be promoting agroforestry if it was causing ill-health to animals... This plan is to have animals and cattle/sheep sharing the land....

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118094487#Comment_118094487

IMO it is more evidence that the lunatics are running the asylum.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118094455#Comment_118094455

This takes the biscuit.

White Clover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118095278#Comment_118095278

The quote "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" comes to mind.