Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120074266#Comment_120074266

In fact on the Greenways thread the opposite was stated, that the demand for rail is less than what the greenway will see in ridership. Not sure I find that plausible, but still.

Personally I agree - I think that in the long term (>20 years) rail should have been extended all the way to Youghal and building a greenway on top of it will be seen as a mistake as the work happening now would have to be removed and rebuilt elsewhere.

Pete_Cavan

Whether the Greenway or rail would get mor users is irrelevant. The Greenway is more likely to have a better Cost/Benefit score as the capital and operational costs are much lower. If the Greenway can be linked to Dungarvan, I can see it being extremely popular with domestic and international punters. It would be part of a high quality and very impressive Greenway between Waterford and Cork.

In reality, there is limited rail passenger potential there. The station at Youghal would be an awkward location and most residents would have to get into the car anyway to get there. Youghal is also 22km from Midleton, that's about the same as the Dublin outer commuter limit (Dunboyne, Maynooth, Hazelhatch) to city centre. It would be a long journey to get anywhere and service frequency would be low. A P&R east of Midleton linked to the N25 would be a good idea though.

In terms of government funding, reinstating rail to Youghal would likely be linked to N25 plans east of Midleton. A firm plan to reopen the rail line would damage the case for the N25 and probably see intentions there reduced to basic bypasses of Castlemartyr and Killeagh. If the rail is being invested in to move people, then the parallel road doesn't need to carry the current level of traffic. That would be in line with national policy.

Economics101

Pete_Cavan: "In terms of government funding, reinstating rail to Youghal would likely be linked to N25 plans east of Midleton. A firm plan to reopen the rail line would damage the case for the N25 and probably see intentions there reduced to basic bypasses of Castlemartyr and Killeagh. If the rail is being invested in to move people, then the parallel road doesn't need to carry the current level of traffic. That would be in line with national policy."

What you say is totally sensible, but it really exposes the lack of any proper planning frameworks for transport projects. We have Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) which covers major roads and LUAS. What about heavy rail investment in all of this? Is it the responsibility of NTA or the DoT? TII should have responsibility of major Rail and Road programmes and projects.

Some other countries have Road and Rail investment planning done by one infrastructure authority. Why is rail an orphan?

cgcsb

Cork has more pressing transport concerns tbh, start building the bus corridors and the luas before extending commuter rail all the way to Youghal. The same mindset was about in Dublin years ago, people wanted rail to go to Navan even though there was nowhere to send trains to in the city centre. We were building luas extensions up to the mountains before connecting the 2 lines in the city centre, mad stuff altogether. Any radial transport network must be functional in its core area before it can reasonably branch out, TDs just like getting things extended.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120083122#Comment_120083122

Do you see a greenway as being a viable commuter option from Youghal to Cork?

Personally, I'd be looking at the rail option as it is the closest seaside town on a (possible) rail link to Cork. Cobh, while on the sea, doesn't have much in the way of a beach, and I'm not aware of plans to re-open railway lines to any of the W Cork towns that used to have them.

On the other hand, the distance may be too great as a commuter option, given that Cork is much smaller than Dublin (where many people commute from towns like Drogheda, Kildare and Wicklow, and even firther afield) although it would serve closer commuter towns including Castlemartyr and Killeagh, of course. But looking to the future, surely rail is the way to go rather than the car?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120083595#Comment_120083595

There's a degree of sense in what you say, and in a country where high-density living was promoted I'd fully agree with you. But "Ireland is different" and if a greenway is built (basically a tourism infrastructure) then the rail option goes completely out the window for everywhere east of Middleton.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120083677#Comment_120083677

Do you see rail as being a viable commuter option from Youghal to Cork? Given the population of the town, the location of the station and the distance to Cork, passenger numbers would be small.

Castlemartyr and Killeagh add little in terms of potential passengers, certainly nowhere near enough to justify the cost involved. You could reopen the rail line on the cheap, so single track non-electrified and run a shuttle between Midleton and Youghal, but again cost would likely outweigh the benefits.

Like I said, provide a P&R east of Midleton and discourage people from driving from east to west of Midleton. Cork has more pressing needs for transport funding.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084358#Comment_120084358

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120083122#Comment_120083122

passenger numbers may not actually be that small.

remember, because someone might have to drive a bit to a station is no longer an argument against rail as driving a small bit to a station is preferable on a societal level if there is going to be some driving involved, then driving all the way which will be a longar distance, and which will in all likely hood require the building of very very expensive infrastructure in the form of a motor way which in normal countries wouldn't be justifiable.

namloc1980

Rail to Youghal is not viable. It'll be interesting to see the recent census results but the 2016 results had only a relatively tiny number of people who live in Youghal and who commute to Cork city. And only a fraction of those would use the train.

An upgraded N25 bypassing Castlemartyr and Killeagh with an increased bus frequency and with a P&R at Midleton makes much more sense.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084601#Comment_120084601

it would be viable as it would be cheap to do compared to the required upgrades that road would need and by removing some of that traffic the upgrades would not be needed.

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084358#Comment_120084358

Even Midleton itself is not highly used. The 2019 Heavy Rail Census showed that on the day in question (21st November), there were a total of 670 alightings and 817 boardings. And Midleton is served with 25-30 arrivals and departures daily.

hans aus dtschl

I'm not against rail to Youghal, but right now it's not an urgent need and it's not simple. Cork has a number of far more urgent rail needs with straightforward implementation plans. And other parts of the country have more urgent rail needs too. So they must take priority.

To justify extension towards Youghal, there will need to be priority on development of the corridor. This would require an urban area in Mogeely, centered around a station there, and to the South of Killeagh too. Let alone further Carrigtohill and Midleton area rail developments. Those aren't yet in County Development plans. So nothing will progress until 2028 or so at a minimum.

I think the fact that the greenway is being developed seems to have lit a fire under the "Youghal Railway" people, and that's a good thing, but the distance to Youghal is large and the populations on the corridor are really low. The overall rail corridor needs to be made more attractive, in order to better justify the investment. Otherwise, it would be just as sensible to extend and refurbish rail lines in all sorts of low-population areas of the country.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084457#Comment_120084457

I think passenger numbers would be small, sadly.

And I also know lots of people just East of Midleton who drive past that station daily, to commute to the city. I can't speak for all of them but I suspect that frequency, cost and connectivity at the other side are the three biggest issues for them, rather than station location. Once they sit into their car, it's proving very difficult to coax them out of it. As Pete_Cavan says above, there will need to be a disincentive for people to drive from East of Midleton to West of Midleton, in order for this rail corridor to become more attractive.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084617#Comment_120084617

Have you costed it? In any case the N25 needs to be upgraded, 100%. It's not viable to continue to have the road going through Castlemartyr and Killeagh. A train would only take a tiny fraction of traffic off the road.

I live in Carrigtwohill and we have a fairly good fast frequency service and relatively very very few people use it. I'm one of the few who use it, there's a massive 260 space car park at the station and there's never move than 10-15 cars there every morning using it. And this was before Covid as well. In the 2019 census there was 137 boardings and 110 alightings on the day in question. Tiny numbers considering there was c.25 services each way or average of c.5 passengers per service. Neighbours living near me who work in the city never use the train. They prefer to drive. I work with people who live in Midleton and they never use the train.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084457#Comment_120084457

You are making my point for me. Given the number of potential passengers involved, having them drive a bit further to get to P&R near Midleton would be better than spending a fortune bringing the train to Youghal. It is the rail which would be the very vey expensive infrastructure which wouldn't be justifiable in this case. Road bypasses of Castlemartyr and Killeagh are required regardless of rail.

Does anyone else think that this is all going to be a disaster unless there is significant improvement to Kent?

It's an absolute bottle neck to anything coming in from the north through that tunnel into a very limited station, at the mouth.

It's a beautiful building but going to be very awkward

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084864#Comment_120084864

realistically that is just 1 day so like the sensus itself it is not reliable unfortunately.

midleton is generally reasonably used.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085172#Comment_120085172

it wouldn't as it would require much bigger upgrades of the road network then would be needed otherwise which would actually cost a fortune unlike the rail line which would be cheaper to do even with a double track if desired.

it is road that is the hugely expensive infrastructure.

a congestion charge in the city as well along with the rail line would remove the need for those bypasses.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085446#Comment_120085446

No it won't. They should be bypassed for heavy goods traffic alone. They're on the main route between 2 cities. They don't need motorway but they still need that traffic diverted

Hell you've a motorway around Fermoy/Rathcormac and, because of a stupid decision to toll HGV, you have heavy goods traffic still ruining these towns.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085297#Comment_120085297

They are going to add an additional platform on the southern side on the avoiding line.

That will mean three through platforms will be available which should be more than enough.

questionmark?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085419#Comment_120085419

Agreed. It is well used for what is a small town and appears to be getting more popular as well since the fares reduction and increased services.

Regarding that census it's a poor snapshot and not reliable. The yearly 2019 figures had Midleton (I presume this includes Carrigtwohill as well) at 480,000 passenger journeys. Thats considerably greater average per day than that census.

Markcheese

From a commuting point of view if you already have a car and live in the midleton area you'll likely drive ,

Yes you could drive to the train station in midleton ,there's plenty parking , but it's as easy to get to the dual carraigeway,

If you work in carrigtohil theres a really long walk from the station to the main industrial estate ..it was supposed to have a dedicated rail stop, didnt happen ..

Little island fairly similar .. it's a long walk to the main industrial areas , ( there is a private company doing a bus around little island from the city now )

You can't change at dunkettle , there was supposed to be a station and park and ride there ,nra objected I think ,

There's a projected station for Tivoli/ north docks , hopefully .. but if you're going east read above , and if you're going to the city you'll either have to walk from Kent or get a bus ..

Kent .. the area around kent and the quays is becoming a lot more built up ..

And theoretically onto blackpool,and mallow except no one built the station at blackpool ..

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120091184#Comment_120091184

The missing stations you mention are all intended to be delivered, one problem is that there is constantly people saying that investment should be made extending tracks to small towns like Youghal and Tuam for little benefit instead of maximising the current network. If the current network was maximised then the case for add-ons would be much better, instead we have people who want to put the cart before the horse in some warped idea of fairness.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120091706#Comment_120091706

it's not about fairness, it's about modernisation.

the adons like tuam and youghal are very easy, quick, cheap and deliverable within a good timeframe hence are easy wins and why they have support.

some of the bigger projects that are needed have a lot to do before they get off the ground and wouldn't be delivered any quicker then they would be and the adons strengthen the cases for them to a stage where they can't be kicked down the can.

Markcheese

The line is still there if the case for reopening to youghal ever reopens ,

Yes it'd be relatively easy , but also relatively pointless .. the population. Density isnt there,

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092599#Comment_120092599

Youghal line's greenway now, no?

Corkladddd!!

It is a greenway and the conversion to such actually helps the future of a Youghal line by maintaining the land rights and the route in a somewhat successful manner; yes when the time comes there'll be opposition against re-purposing the greenway but that can be accommodated!

For what it's worth for myself I'd have connections to Airport/Innishannon/Bandon and Glanmire/Watergrasshill/Rathcormac/Fermoy as far higher priorities if you were looking at an expansion of the local Cork network!

hans aus dtschl

There's buildings on the alignment to Youghal. The greenway avoids these issues by going around the property built on the rail line, particularly in one location. So it would not be as simple as just re-laying track and sending trains down it. Plus the marshes would likely need some kind of solution for the modern trains. It would be an OK project, but it wouldn't be a phenomenally easy/straightforward one. Not as easy as Midleton was, is what I'm getting at. And definitely not as easy as Dunkettle, Carrigtohill West, WaterRock, Blackpool, Blarney, etc, which would be the "low-hanging fruit" in the Cork Area.

I've said it a few times now, but to push ahead the business case of rail for Youghal, the best opportunities would be increasing Midleton P&R usage and further housing density in Killeagh and Mogeely. These aren't in the County Development Plan, and I don't think I saw anybody make submissions that they should be included. Youghal's "problem" is the long stretches of no population, interrupted by small settlements. Youghal itself isn't a major settlement either. It's very different to the areas closer to the City, like the Midleton stretch.

Pete_Cavan

Luckily there is a current reinstatement of a long disused rail line which can be used for comparison. The 42km railway line between Limerick and Foynes is getting new track, new signaling, etc at a cost of €65m. Midleton-youghal is about half that distance but requires new stations so would likely cost €40m or more. That money would pay for the "missing link" station west of Midleton and would no doubt increase passenger numbers than connecting Youghal. Electrifying it would cost another whack on top of that figure.

Assuming the reinstated Youghal line isn't electrified, it would most likely operate as a diesel shuttle service because west of Midleton is being electrified and mixing diesels there would be an unnecessary hassle. Such a service is not going to be attractive from Youghal as journey time would already be quite long, plus the hassle of having to change. If there are people in Midleton who don't use the train to go to places like Carrigtwohill and LI because the stations there aren't close enough to the employment centres, there is no chance people from Youghal would take the train. Like I said, maximise the existing infrastructure before tacking bits on to the end of it.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090076#Comment_120090076

That 480,000 pretty much aligns to the census in 2019 when there were c.1,400 journeys on the day to/from Midleton. 480k/365 = c1,300. So in fact the census shows a higher number per day if anything. No idea where you got the idea that it was not reliable.