Garda Staff - Removal from Civil Service

Samuel T. Cogley

General Scheme Here:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/General_Scheme_of_the_Policing_Security_and_Community_Safety_Bill.pdf/Files/General_Scheme_of_the_Policing_Security_and_Community_Safety_Bill.pdf

(5) Every member of the civilian staff of An Garda Síochána who is a civil servant
of the Government before the commencement of this head and who is
designated by order of the Minister for the purposes of this head shall, on
being so designated, become a member of garda staff.

Union not consulted from what I can gather. My reading of it is Garda Staff will no longer be Civil Servants Per Se. Interested on peoples views and opinions on what this means if it makes it into the Bill and eventually the legislation.

Wonderstruck

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

General Scheme Here:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/General_Scheme_of_the_Policing_Security_and_Community_Safety_Bill.pdf/Files/General_Scheme_of_the_Policing_Security_and_Community_Safety_Bill.pdf



Union not consulted from what I can gather. My reading of it is Garda Staff will no longer be Civil Servants Per Se. Interested on peoples views and opinions on what this means if it makes it into the Bill and eventually the legislation.

Wow to think of all the people they took off those CO / EO panels and subjected to all those months high level garda clearance! If I worked there I would be absolutely livid.

Very surprised that Forsa wasn't consulted though, that's a huge industrial relations matter if it does mean those staff losing CS status. Though I wouldn't put it past AGS they have a weird thing about being special compared to other depts like how they don't use PeoplePoint.

Vologda69

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

General Scheme Here:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/General_Scheme_of_the_Policing_Security_and_Community_Safety_Bill.pdf/Files/General_Scheme_of_the_Policing_Security_and_Community_Safety_Bill.pdf

Union not consulted from what I can gather. My reading of it is Garda Staff will no longer be Civil Servants Per Se. Interested on peoples views and opinions on what this means if it makes it into the Bill and eventually the legislation.

Wud expect a firestorm if that was the case.

PCX

Does that mean that current civil service Garda staff will no longer be eligible for civil service interdepartmental promotion panels or for CS mobility transfers?

If so that is a significant negative change to terms and conditions. I wouldn't blame Garda staff for being angry about this.

Ravelleman

It's long been on the cards but my fear would be that it will further divorce Garda Staff from the mainstream of the Civil Service. AGS is already a parallel universe in many respects and not usually in a good way.

blindsider

Are there any other depts where civilian staff work alongside specialist staff e.g. Fire Brigade or ambulance? Would it impact them?

NapoleonInRags

Ravelleman wrote: »

It's long been on the cards but my fear would be that it will further divorce Garda Staff from the mainstream of the Civil Service. AGS is already a parallel universe in many respects and not usually in a good way.

It will completely divorce Garda Staff from the mainstream Civil Service- that's the whole idea.

NapoleonInRags

blindsider wrote: »

Are there any other depts where civilian staff work alongside specialist staff e.g. Fire Brigade or ambulance? Would it impact them?

Department of Defence is probably the clearest example. But this legislation is specific to Garda staff - so won't impact on any other Civil Servants.

Ahshurlookit

This will be a disaster for CO's and EO's especially. No longer eligible for interdepartmental competitions and I presume no longer eligible for CS mobility. The only chance of promotion is the internal competitions which are run on an ad hoc basis, unless you qualify for open competitions through educational qualifications.

headtheball14

So once you are in gs you are locked in. Lots of areas have specialist and general civil service working together. It's not a good idea to silo people off . It would certainly mean people outside would be put off applying for roles there. Maybe that's the idea .
What is any other argument for this.

Ahshurlookit

It was explained to me that as things are, GSOC have no authority to investigate Garda Staff but once they are removed from the civil service and under the new Garda act, GSOC will have the authority to investigate Garda staff in the same way it currently investigates Gardaí.

Turtyturd

It’s not a good thing for the civilian staff. I worked in a department that has a similar situation and the civilian staff get absolutely no recognition. They’ll be considered disciplined staff when it comes to benefits like flexi, mobility, parental leave and other benefits offered by the wider civil service but will be considered civilian staff if they enquire about the benefits for disciplined staff like allowances etc.

Also don’t know what the union situation is like with An Garda Siochana but if the civilian staff are forced to sign up to their union they’ll have no representation.

doc22

Garda HQ prob wants to hire its own staff too not whatever pas hands them

Addle

Will this affect pulse employees?

Wonderstruck

doc22 wrote: »

Garda HQ prob wants to hire its own staff too not whatever pas hands them

AGS can easily get permission to run a competition separate from PAS (most depts have no inclination to do this), that alone isn't a good reason to deprive people of CS status (which does take away rights to mobility, interd competions etc).

I've met people who moved on mobility out of AGS etc a factor was that in AGS was what people have said here, for the opportunties to move up which are much rarer in AGS.

Also remember the gardai don't have a union, they have a "representive association" as they legally aren't allowed a union. So it also raises issues about the staff's ability to effectively unionise.

Not to mention civilian staff have different representative needs, unionwise compared to gardai. What will this change mean for their working conditions or pay?!

That's why I find this proposal so weird and odd, though I don't want to jump to conclusions on it, as it might get axed but that is a lot of civil servants who could be seriously impacted.

Ahshurlookit

Addle wrote: »

Will this affect pulse employees?

Do you mean staff in GISC? If so, yeah it will.

Lynnington3

This has me scared! I’m Garda staff, I will have 2 years service in September. I took a post up in Dublin , living in Offaly and commuting. I’m on the mobility list but won’t be eligible until September and even then will probably we waiting a few years for a position.
Does this mean I can forget about getting a transfer closer to home that isn’t in AGS? That will leave me extremely limited

doc22

Could this also be pushback on the civilisation of roles within AGS

Ravelleman

NapoleonInRags wrote: »

It will completely divorce Garda Staff from the mainstream Civil Service- that's the whole idea.

You are of course right in absolute terms, though the COFPI report frames it more as a means of solving a Garda problem than any problem that Garda Staff face, hence my comment. I am not convinced that the solution is to go even further down this road when the outlook is already quite bleak for many civil servants in AGS. Whatever about internal competitions, it can be quite hard already for Garda Staff to make their case in open competitions at certain levels because the work serves only certain purposes (AGS is not a policy-oriented organisation, for example). To my mind, many of AGS' woes in recruitment have been own goals on its part, not that of PAS.

Meathlass

Lynnington3 wrote: »

This has me scared! I’m Garda staff, I will have 2 years service in September. I took a post up in Dublin , living in Offaly and commuting. I’m on the mobility list but won’t be eligible until September and even then will probably we waiting a few years for a position.
Does this mean I can forget about getting a transfer closer to home that isn’t in AGS? That will leave me extremely limited

This is only the General Scheme of a bill - basically a wish list of everything they want in the Act. It has a long way to go to make it into legislation and even then certain sections might not be commenced for years. I could see the Unions kicking up a huge row over this so you will have plenty of time to move into another Department. But, yes, as others have said, this would fundamentally alter the conditions of civil servants in the AGS.

Samsgirl

Has anyone heard any more on this?

dat6

Samsgirl wrote: »

Has anyone heard any more on this?

The new Garda act replaces the existing 2005 act and defines the structure of the organisation. One fo the main aspects is to make the Garda Commissioner independent and like a “CEO”.

I checked out these proposed changes with Garda HR, and the first time they heard anything about it was when it was published. There hasn’t been much from the Union about it but this won’t go down without a fight. It completely changes what existing Garda Staff signed up to. The future is grim within AGS for typical COs in a local Garda station where there is zero progression.

The Explanatory Memorandum sets out

Connected with this approach, the Scheme enables garda staff to be recruited directly to An Garda Síochána rather than to the Civil Service with provision made for the transfer of existing staff subject to the making of an order by the Minister following engagement with staff representative bodies.

GSOC proposed changes include...

garda staff will be brought within its remit - this is subject to their change in status from civil servants to public servants to avoid overlap with the existing disciplinary processes that apply to the Civil Service;

So lots to negotiate but my thinking is this won’t happen anytime soon.

The most worrying part is that Garda Staff won’t be able to join a Union, ultimately not represented

So if this becomes a reality, expect a large amount of staff requesting transfers and work to rule!

Silent night

Any update on this

Tipp star

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119291570#Comment_119291570

Jumping in on this thread here, I am a garda civilian staff member, and partially due to this proposed change I think i would move departments through mobility. I am fairly high up the mobility list but think it could be up to a year before i get my transfer. If the changes do come into action before then, will mobility still apply for civilian staff members?

Mutt Love

I received an email from Forsa yesterday outlining that the bill is still being pushed ahead and nothing has really changed. Concerns have been ignored repeatedly since 2018. There seems to be a complete lack of engagement and acknowledgement of concerns from the justice committee which is worrying.

They're looking for Garda staff to sign up to be notified of online meetings they'll be doing throughout the month, to gather feedback on the proposed changes. You don't need to be a Forsa member to sign up for the meetings.

Link: https://forms.microsoft.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=uiD74H4OB0SLzKGKZgH-X4Lh7kldJkVMsC3hGZBjsztUREtKSjJaMEVMQjIwUDQ3R0w5MDBLT1dUSC4u

Hopefully there's power in numbers, the more staff that know about it and speak up the better.

Just wanted to share the info as I know it isn't always widely available depending on where you're based in AGS.

lisabiscuit

I've just signed up for one of these meetings. It's quite worrying really.

Lynnington3

Does anyone know if these changes will only affect new incoming staff? Or are they changing the terms and conditions of existing staffs jobs?

lisabiscuit

Both existing and new staff as far as I'm aware. Very sneaky to be honest. If it wasn't for the union I'd never have heard a peep about it.

Nigel Fairservice

Out of interest, will staff be given the option of transferring to a civil service organisation if these changes happen?

dat6

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119484950#Comment_119484950

Nobody can answer this yet. It will depend on the final legislation that goes to the President and discussions.

In the current form, Garda Staff will be no longer civil servants.

billyhead

Put your name down for a mobility transfer asap if you want a move.

Lynnington3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119487387#Comment_119487387

I can’t believe that they might not allow people the option to transfer after the legislation goes through.

I joined the Civil Service , NOT AGS.

Its very unfair and worrying.

Flinty997

Surprised the unions haven't leapt on this. Its outrageous if they get away with it.

EarlyStorms

Garda Staff are gonna have to mobilise on this, they'll probably force it through anyway but the Unions have to make it awkward and try secure some concessions for existing Garda Staff. In the meantime get your name on mobility transfer lists if you haven't already.

Flinty997

Good luck recruiting in the Public Sector after doing this.

Kirbi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119488283#Comment_119488283

There's precedent for allowing staff to transfer / redeploy to a Civil service org when the area they're working in changes from civil to public (RSA comes to mind - it was created out of D/Transport staff).

I'm not sure it would have happened with anything like the number of staff in Garda Civs though - and the number of locations around the country too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119488315#Comment_119488315

Are you just as outraged when it happens to those in the private sector? Or is your outraged just limited to yourself for selfish reasons?

Employees transferring to a new employer happens all the time and under TUPE regulations, the employee retains all their conditions.

The 'outrage' here is just another glaring example of an inflexible and unmanageable workforce.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119491001#Comment_119491001

But in this instance employees won't be retaining there conditions.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119491001#Comment_119491001

I'm not entirely sure what your asking, or why you're asking it. Your question seems to be is the civil service the same as the private sector, or the public sector. The answer is no.

An imperfect analogy might be the difference between a contractor and permanent staff. But that's not quite right either.

Ultimately you seem want everyone to be treated equally badly for some reason. A race to the bottom as it were. None of this effects me directly. But these kinds of erosion of employment terms and conditions have a habit of spreading once they gain traction and filtering down to everyone. Once you give an inch they take a mile etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119491784#Comment_119491784

Last time I looked all citizens are equal under the law. Unless you are suggesting otherwise?

Then in that case if people are moved to another employer, their conditions also transfer. If this protection is good enough for private employees, then it's good enough for govt employees.

Flinty997

Employment contracts, terms and conditions are not equal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119491796#Comment_119491796

You need to admit at this stage that you've failed in understanding how the civil service works.

People joined the CS, not AGS. Not the dept of finance or any other department. They joined the Cs and were posted to a department. It's a world of difference.

redmarie

Does anyone know when this will happen? Have they given a timeframe as to when staff will be removed from CS and be directly employed under Ags?

United Park

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119491796#Comment_119491796

You can't compare private and public sector working conditions. There are things that can be done to public sector workers tgat cant be done to private sector workers and vice versa.

Despite something like this happening a nunber of times over the lads 30 years (maybe even longer), I have great sympathy for those that work as garda civilians. For example some mightve taken a pay cut and joined the civil service to do a couple of years in Dublin to hopefully get a move down to their home down the country.

The unions should be kicking up (though they probably know that not alot can be done as this happens every so often)

Ahshurlookit

It won't happen before 2024, if at all.

Samsgirl

Attended a Forsa meeting this evening and this is definitely going ahead. Should be going before the oireachtes in September.

Lynnington3

Will the union fight this?

im worried my mobility won’t come up before this comes in

EO2019

Did they say anything about terms and conditions or how this would impact members eg mobility.

Samsgirl

To be honest they didn't have any answers. It was more like an information gathering session to see what people were concerned with ie. removal of flexi, interdepartmental competitions etc.

Forsa will be meeting them - presumably garda hq to negotiate on our behalf.

Samsgirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119552326#Comment_119552326

Forsa will fight for terms and conditions for us but the move seems to be a done deal.

Mad how they can make such a substantial change to our contracts.

EarlyStorms

Forsa need to get some concessions for Current Garda Staff, especially those who have already applied for Mobility Transfers etc. They're going to lose a lot of staff over this and will find it much harder to get new staff in.