Costings of dry cattle

lalababa

Hi, I wonder about the viability (especially head numbers wise) and costings of the following set up, and input from ye all is appreciated.

All fixed assets and slatted unit and machinery in place and ready to go.
100 head of 250-350kg weanlings (mix of most types) average 650 a pop. (65,000)
Keep for close to /or/ 2years to finish at around 700-750kg (or what kg?)
All silage and slurry done myself.

I think @4.00 / kg. I'd come out with the bones of 20k per annum after expenses. And allowing 5k for building and machinery depreciation.
What do ye think?

cute geoge

Have you a 100 acres of good land so as well

leoch

i remember someone said a rough guide of €500 a head to get it from bought in price to finished animal

kk.man

lalababa wrote: »

Hi, I wonder about the viability (especially head numbers wise) and costings of the following set up, and input from ye all is appreciated.

All fixed assets and slatted unit and machinery in place and ready to go.
100 head of 250-350kg weanlings (mix of most types) average 650 a pop. (65,000)
Keep for close to /or/ 2years to finish at around 700-750kg (or what kg?)
All silage and slurry done myself.

I think @4.00 / kg. I'd come out with the bones of 20k per annum after expenses. And allowing 5k for building and machinery depreciation.
What do ye think?

Firstly 650 a pop is a very dreamy target given the current price of store cattle. At what time of the year do you intend to purchase?


I'm not knocking anything you intend but you got to be more specific. I did well out of cattle the last few years but what killed the job was the fixed costs (I watched everything with a fine comb) and in those figures there was no borrowing. That where the Basic premium comes in, its like your insurance. I'd consider myself good at what I do but I have never held onto 100 % of my Basic premium(after all costs) no matter what I did.

BENDYBINN

kk.man wrote: »

Firstly 650 a pop is a very dreamy target given the current price of store cattle. At what time of the year do you intend to purchase?


I'm not knocking anything you intend but you got to be more specific. I did well out of cattle the last few years but what killed the job was the fixed costs (I watched everything with a fine comb) and in those figures there was no borrowing. That where the Basic premium comes in, its like your insurance. I'd consider myself good at what I do but I have never held onto 100 % of my Basic premium(after all costs) no matter what I did.

So your not good at what you do?

kk.man

BENDYBINN wrote: »

So your not good at what you do?

Maybe not ...still got 90 plus better than most i'd say..could be wrong (that's after all capital expenditure too) .

lalababa

Jeasus

Bass Reeves

If you plan on finishing cattle out of a shed forget about it. Costs are horrendus. At 650/head you are probable looking at a 50/50 mix of Continental's and HEX/AA cattle.

HE and AA cattle will struggle to kill 330/340 average. We have not see a 4/kg average winter base for 4-5 years now. At 3.9/kg base( still optimistic) grading O+ they will gross less than 1350/head. Continental cattle grading R+ average hanging 360DW average 1500 euro. That type of performance is usually as good as it gets and many do not achieve that.

Assuming you feed weanlings at grass after purchase for 6-8 weeks a kg of ration and feed it in the shed as well until 8 weeks before turnout.

Weanlings cost to housing 50 euro
winter feeding costs to turnout 120 euro
dosing, mortality vet, trasport and mart fees etc 60 euro
Summer at grass
Grass costs 100 euro
dosing, herd test, vet etc 50 euro.

Housing to finish feeding costs 300-350 euro
Dosing slaughter and transport fees, 35 euro


Total costs 700-750 euro and very little fixed costs included. You might shave a bit off here and there.

Average Bullock netting 1475 at slaughter
Average cost of bullock 650 , average costs 700-750, toital cost 1350-1400 euro

Winter feeding costs are just too expensive and winter beef price has not reflected this for the last 4-5 years. Pricing a summer ration at present it has risen 60-70 euro/ton over the last 4-5 years. Winter beef prices have dropped 40-50c/kg. At 40c/kg thats about 130 euro on HE/AA and 150 on Continental type cattle.

That is where the 200 euro margin has gone

You might shave 10-20 euro off the costs here and there but IMO you are at a hiding to nothing

amacca

Is there any system worthwhile in beef now

Cavanjack

He should pick 250kg limousine weanlings at €650-€700 all the same in the back end. There should be no problem finishing them off grass two years later at 700Kg + (400kg dead weight) but they’ll probably need a bit of meal before killing them. No easy task with 100 bullocks.

Bass Reeves

amacca wrote: »

Is there any system worthwhile in beef now

Making a few bob off store to beef. Buying in Autumn the lighter store with plenty of compensatory growth. Silage only for the winter slaughtering from late June on into the Autumn. Keep costs cut to the bone. Will let anything that will not finish off grass run back out to grass following spring.

Paying 600ish for store on average and trying to get them to average 1200 following year. Costs 350/head

Bass Reeves

Cavanjack wrote: »

He should pick 250kg limousine weanlings at €650-€700 all the same in the back end. There should be no problem finishing them off grass two years later at 700Kg + (400kg dead weight) but they’ll probably need a bit of meal before killing them. No easy task with 100 bullocks.

For that amount of cattle you would need 150 acres

farawaygrass

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Making a few bob off store to beef. Buying in Autumn the lighter store with plenty of compensatory growth. Silage only for the winter slaughtering from late June on into the Autumn. Keep costs cut to the bone. Will let anything that will not finish off grass run back out to grass following spring.

Paying 600ish for store on average and trying to get them to average 1200 following year. Costs 350/head

Is it all continentals you try and buy for that?

Bass Reeves

farawaygrass wrote: »

Is it all continentals you try and buy for that?

I don't think do

MIKEKC

kk.man wrote: »

Firstly 650 a pop is a very dreamy target given the current price of store cattle. At what time of the year do you intend to purchase?


I'm not knocking anything you intend but you got to be more specific. I did well out of cattle the last few years but what killed the job was the fixed costs (I watched everything with a fine comb) and in those figures there was no borrowing. That where the Basic premium comes in, its like your insurance. I'd consider myself good at what I do but I have never held onto 100 % of my Basic premium(after all costs) no matter what I did.

If you haven't held onto your Basic premium how do you claim to have done well out of cattle?

J.O. Farmer

MIKEKC wrote: »

If you haven't held onto your Basic premium how do you claim to have done well out of cattle?

He held onto some of his BPS, that probably counts as doing well.

In fairness he probably means the cattle covered the variable costs directly associated with them but not fixed costs such as insurance.

Cavanjack

Bass Reeves wrote: »

For that amount of cattle you would need 150 acres

Yeah, that’s the number the op talked about buying.

older by the day

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

He held onto some of his BPS, that probably counts as doing well.

In fairness he probably means the cattle covered the variable costs directly associated with them but not fixed costs such as insurance.

Ya I know a few lads around here and the BPS and their old age pensions goes on feeding cattle. They would run you if you mentioned cutting down numbers for the winter

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If you plan on finishing cattle out of a shed forget about it. Costs are horrendus. At 650/head you are probable looking at a 50/50 mix of Continental's and HEX/AA cattle.

HE and AA cattle will struggle to kill 330/340 average. We have not see a 4/kg average winter base for 4-5 years now. At 3.9/kg base( still optimistic) grading O+ they will gross less than 1350/head. Continental cattle grading R+ average hanging 360DW average 1500 euro. That type of performance is usually as good as it gets and many do not achieve that.

Assuming you feed weanlings at grass after purchase for 6-8 weeks a kg of ration and feed it in the shed as well until 8 weeks before turnout.

Weanlings cost to housing 50 euro
winter feeding costs to turnout 120 euro
dosing, mortality vet, trasport and mart fees etc 60 euro
Summer at grass
Grass costs 100 euro
dosing, herd test, vet etc 50 euro.

Housing to finish feeding costs 300-350 euro
Dosing slaughter and transport fees, 35 euro


Total costs 700-750 euro and very little fixed costs included. You might shave a bit off here and there.

Average Bullock netting 1475 at slaughter
Average cost of bullock 650 , average costs 700-750, toital cost 1350-1400 euro

Winter feeding costs are just too expensive and winter beef price has not reflected this for the last 4-5 years. Pricing a summer ration at present it has risen 60-70 euro/ton over the last 4-5 years. Winter beef prices have dropped 40-50c/kg. At 40c/kg thats about 130 euro on HE/AA and 150 on Continental type cattle.

That is where the 200 euro margin has gone

You might shave 10-20 euro off the costs here and there but IMO you are at a hiding to nothing

I agree on winter feeding, cattle on meal actually do better in the heat of summer or autumn, on top of that its hardship in the winter feeding cattle.

Id feed them good silage and no meal over the winter. A bit of hardship sees a massive rebound when they hit grass.

If it was me id go for freisan bullocks or angus/hereford heifers and id stock light. If you have 100 acres maybe finish 50 a year especially if its a hobby.

Crazy prices at the minute on "continental bullocks" that wont break 400 kgs.

Id leave the bullocks go up to or over 30 months. Might feed for 7 to 9 weeks to get them away quick or leave them there till end of November.

The heifers would fatten away handy enough maybe a bit of meal for 5 or 6 weeks if you wanted them away earlier. Maybe 25 to 27 months on them.

CloughCasey1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I agree on winter feeding, cattle on meal actually do better in the heat of summer or autumn, on top of that its hardship in the winter feeding cattle.

Id feed them good silage and no meal over the winter. A bit of hardship sees a massive rebound when they hit grass.

If it was me id go for freisan bullocks or angus/hereford heifers and id stock light. If you have 100 acres maybe finish 50 a year especially if its a hobby.

Crazy prices at the minute on "continental bullocks" that wont break 400 kgs.

Id leave the bullocks go up to or over 30 months. Might feed for 7 to 9 weeks to get them away quick or leave them there till end of November.

The heifers would fatten away handy enough maybe a bit of meal for 5 or 6 weeks if you wanted them away earlier. Maybe 25 to 27 months on them.

I dont agree with giving cattle hardship/setback over the winter. Yes I dont feed them meal, but it's a massive opportunity to build a frame on an animal without fleshing them out. Let the grass and as you said meal in the autumn put the final finish on them. But the proper intake of protein, minerals and top quality silage will have a frame built on cattle over the winter to take the best advantage of the spring grass when they are let out. No point in rebounding cattle to where they could have been anyway. Just my 2c.

kk.man

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

He held onto some of his BPS, that probably counts as doing well.

In fairness he probably means the cattle covered the variable costs directly associated with them but not fixed costs such as insurance.

That is correct. I regularly hold 90% of the Total of Glas and Basic Payment. I loose 10% on the fixed costs. I am just stating that if the OP has no Entitlements and starting out as outlined he could loose money on his enterprise especially a new start up which would have additional costs.

BENDYBINN

kk.man wrote: »

That is correct. I regularly hold 90% of the Total of Glas and Basic Payment. I loose 10% on the fixed costs. I am just stating that if the OP has no Entitlements and starting out as outlined he could loose money on his enterprise especially a new start up which would have additional costs.

Surely you would be better off leasing your land and keeping the payments?

Jb1989

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Surely you would be better off leasing your land and keeping the payments?

You can't lease out and lift glas Payment I assume.

kk.man

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Surely you would be better off leasing your land and keeping the payments?

I am still able to pay for updated machinery and concrete etc every year without reverting to borrowing. Happy enough with it.

Byw my agri payments are rather large compared to the average.

jntsnk

Factor in the worse factory price we’ve had in the last few years and work off that. Then you won’t be at a loss . €4 is too optimistic

Dinzee Conlee

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Surely you would be better off leasing your land and keeping the payments?

kk.man wrote: »

That is correct. I regularly hold 90% of the Total of Glas and Basic Payment. I loose 10% on the fixed costs. I am just stating that if the OP has no Entitlements and starting out as outlined he could loose money on his enterprise especially a new start up which would have additional costs.

Is it that unusual for smaller farmers to dip into the BPS on the farm?

I wouldn't have thought it was?

J.O. Farmer

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Is it that unusual for smaller farmers to dip into the BPS on the farm?

I wouldn't have thought it was?

More like it's not that unusual for smaller farmers to dip into off farm income on the farm.

MIKEKC

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

He held onto some of his BPS, that probably counts as doing well.

In fairness he probably means the cattle covered the variable costs directly associated with them but not fixed costs such as insurance.

Meant to say he didn't hold onto all his payment. If he didn't hold on to some of his payment he would be really in the sh1t

Cavanjack

amacca wrote: »

Is there any system worthwhile in beef now

There was a nice twist in bulls bought last April (for anyone who was brave enough) and killed over the last few weeks.
Had a bunch of hungry limos/sim and also black limos out of fr cows that were bought for a little over €700 at around 350kg last April. Housed them in November and killed the end of April weighing 465kg @ €4.10. They ate about 1.5tonne over the winter along with very good silage.
Only problem was that I didn’t have enough of them.

BENDYBINN

Cavanjack wrote: »

There was a nice twist in bulls bought last April (for anyone who was brave enough) and killed over the last few weeks.
Had a bunch of hungry limos/sim and also black limos out of fr cows that were bought for a little over €700 at around 350kg last April. Housed them in November and killed the end of April weighing 465kg @ €4.10. They ate about 1.5tonne over the winter along with very good silage.
Only problem was that I didn’t have enough of them.

Problem now they have to be replaced.........

Bass Reeves

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Problem now they have to be replaced.........

I would not be in any hurry replacing cattle. If you turn a good touch I would be slow to think I could repeat it

lab man

kk.man wrote: »

I am still able to pay for updated machinery and concrete etc every year without reverting to borrowing. Happy enough with it.

Byw my agri payments are rather large compared to the average.

You must have some amount of land and cattle if your not having to use any of your cheque in the post I know round west clare any farmer with 30 cows and weanlings and a few replacement heifers the payments are gone before they see them

epfff

Cavanjack wrote: »

There was a nice twist in bulls bought last April (for anyone who was brave enough) and killed over the last few weeks.
Had a bunch of hungry limos/sim and also black limos out of fr cows that were bought for a little over €700 at around 350kg last April. Housed them in November and killed the end of April weighing 465kg @ €4.10. They ate about 1.5tonne over the winter along with very good silage.
Only problem was that I didn’t have enough of them.

There was quick money on the heavy ones bought last Sept and killed in January too

Always regret doing bull's

Too many hurt
Ate too much meal
Couldn't get them killed
Didn't do enough of them

Only 1 out of 4 a winner odds aren't great

Yes I'm still feeding them but about 1/4 what I was feeding 3 yrs ago

Cavanjack

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Problem now they have to be replaced.........

Have them replaced with more or less the same type stock but they seem to have come in a bit heavier this year. I’d be buying them from feb until now so I’d never be in a panic buying after selling.

Cavanjack

epfff wrote: »

There was quick money on the heavy ones bought last Sept and killed in January too

Always regret doing bull's

Too many hurt
Ate too much meal
Couldn't get them killed
Didn't do enough of them

Only 1 out of 4 a winner odds aren't great

Yes I'm still feeding them but about 1/4 what I was feeding 3 yrs ago

Cut back on them here too. Never had a problem getting them killed though. We have good housing and keep them in small groups to try and cut out the fighting.

memorystick

lab man wrote: »

You must have some amount of land and cattle if your not having to use any of your cheque in the post I know round west clare any farmer with 30 cows and weanlings and a few replacement heifers the payments are gone before they see them

I’m under 100 acres and haven’t touched last year’s payment yet. But I’ve a job as does herself.

memorystick

lab man wrote: »

You must have some amount of land and cattle if your not having to use any of your cheque in the post I know round west clare any farmer with 30 cows and weanlings and a few replacement heifers the payments are gone before they see them

I’m under 100 acres and haven’t touched last year’s payment yet. But I’ve a job as does herself.

BENDYBINN

lab man wrote: »

You must have some amount of land and cattle if your not having to use any of your cheque in the post I know round west clare any farmer with 30 cows and weanlings and a few replacement heifers the payments are gone before they see them

Can he not see he’d be better off with 10 cows...........or just enough to draw payments.

Jb1989

memorystick wrote: »

I’m under 100 acres and haven’t touched last year’s payment yet. But I’ve a job as does herself.

So do you pull from the day job money or is the day job still irrelevant to you saveing your payments?

memorystick

Jb1989 wrote: »

So do you pull from the day job money or is the day job still irrelevant to you saveing your payments?

I’m saving payments at the minute but need to organise a plan. I had to invest heavily for about 5 years in the place but out of the woods now. I’m a kinda saving for a deposit on something whether it be land or a house but things are very dear. I only got a permanent job a few years ago so I’m in a better place. But I’m careful of the plans I make.

Jb1989

memorystick wrote: »

I’m saving payments at the minute but need to organise a plan. I had to invest heavily for about 5 years in the place but out of the woods now. I’m a kinda saving for a deposit on something whether it be land or a house but things are very dear. I only got a permanent job a few years ago so I’m in a better place. But I’m careful of the plans I make.

You've to pay the tax yourself out of keeping the farming payments then I assume, instead of it being took out of your day job payment which doesn't feel as bad when the employer is organising it.

memorystick

Jb1989 wrote: »

You've to pay the tax yourself out of keeping the farming payments then I assume, instead of it being took out of your day job payment which doesn't feel as bad when the employer is organising it.

Yes but it’s easier to budget tax when you have everything in front of you. I have no intention of putting my wages into the farm long term except if it’s for land purchase. The country is full of money and land won’t be falling in value anytime soon.

Do many lads here buy calves reared? Plenty on the DD.

memorystick

Is it possible to finish AAx and HRx heifers on the second summer of grass? I’m buying middle of the road bullocks but know I’m making nothing. Was thinking of buying reared calves and have only 1 winter. I don’t know

Bass Reeves

memorystick wrote: »

Is it possible to finish AAx and HRx heifers on the second summer of grass? I’m buying middle of the road bullocks but know I’m making nothing. Was thinking of buying reared calves and have only 1 winter. I don’t know

It is but you need to be buying February/ early March calves. They need to thrive from day one and you need to get them out to grass early as yearlings and have good weight gain. Say they Average 250 DW at 21 months especially as you get the extra AA bonus in November if Cales weight 38 kgs at birth.

They be approximately 490 LW take away 36 kg birth weight you need to gain 444 kgs in 630 days or which is 0.71 kgs/ day not outlandish weight gain but you would need to be a strong performance all the same

Neddyusa

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

More like it's not that unusual for smaller farmers to dip into off farm income on the farm.

Off- farm income or BPS, 97% of beef farms are propped up by either one or the other.

DBK1

memorystick wrote: »

Is it possible to finish AAx and HRx heifers on the second summer of grass? I’m buying middle of the road bullocks but know I’m making nothing. Was thinking of buying reared calves and have only 1 winter. I don’t know

It's definitely possible with the Angus but as Bass said they need to be February calves at the latest and they need to be thriving from day 1 so you would have to be well prepared for the various stages. Out to grass as early as possible both when they come off milk as calves and when they are coming out of the shed after the first winter. Have paddocks well set up to be able to keep them rotated every few days is number 1 priority to keep them growing at all times.

I would always take Teagasc advice with a pinch of salt but one thing I strongly agree with them on is that grass quality and management is the most important thing any farmer has to look after. That goes for both grazing grass and silage. If you have poor quality silage cattle won't thrive so you won't achieve what you want to here. The same goes for grazing, if stock are roaming around big fields for a few weeks at a time or grazing any type of stemmy grass they won't thrive properly either. At as very minimum they would want to be moving to fresh grass once a week but preferably twice a week.

If you can do all that you should have Angus fit to kill off grass. Whiteheads might take a bit longer, maybe until end of November or into December before being fit so depending on your land they may need a short period in the shed. It would be a poor enough whitehead that would kill out a 250 kgs dw, you should be aiming for 270 - 300 kgs dw at 21/22 months old for them which would be 550 - 600kgs liveweight. You would need a good quality calf and would have to be really on top of your game to achieve that by end of the second grazing season.

Jb1989

Neddyusa wrote: »

Off- farm income or BPS, 97% of beef farms are propped up by either one or the other.

At one stage I was propped up by both.

memorystick

What is this rain costing?

Cavanjack

memorystick wrote: »

What is this rain costing?

The grass is growing so it’s like very cheap fertilizer