Should i i pay 500 for traveling?

rocky477

Hi guys, i just wanna know your opinion on this situation. So first things first i got stopped on the way to airport terminal. I told the officer that the purpose of me leaving the country is dental appointment which is where i live ,but i didn't have any documents to prove it(stupid me),and he told me you can do dental appointments here ,so he probably thought i am lying and I'm going for holidays.So long story short i got a fine,and i wanna ask if would get a letter of my dentist that i had an appointment,would that save me from paying the fine?Because as far as i know dental appointments is a legitimate reason for traveling,but the fact that i booked for the dentist appointment in my country during the Irelands's lockdown(mid March) thats whats bothering me.So what are the odds to win the case? Sorry for my grammar, English is my second language.

Lenar3556

rocky477 wrote: »

Hi guys, i just wanna know your opinion on this situation. So first things first i got stopped on the way to airport terminal. I told the officer that the purpose of me leaving the country is dental appointment which is where i live ,but i didn't have any documents to prove it(stupid me),and he told me you can do dental appointments here ,so he probably thought i am lying and I'm going for holidays.So long story short i got a fine,and i wanna ask if would get a letter of my dentist that i had an appointment,would that save me from paying the fine?Because as far as i know dental appointments is a legitimate reason for traveling,but the fact that i booked for the dentist appointment in my country during the Irelands's lockdown(mid March) thats whats bothering me.So what are the odds to win the case? Sorry for my grammar, English is my second language.

You should seek the advice of a solicitor.

If you decide not to pay it is likely that you will be summonsed to court. You will need to attend and it would probably be helpful to have a solicitor represent you.

You or your solicitor may attempt to have the charges withdrawn in advance.

The judge will ultimately decide the outcome, but I suspect from what you have said that you may have a reasonable defence. Talk to a solicitor!

Homer

Ask the solicitor in advance will his fee be more or less than €500 and then decide how you would like to proceed. It’s quite simple

silver2020

You don't need a solicitor, simply write in and appeal it and show the email threads / confirmations backed up by a letter from your dentist and a receipt for the work done.

That the dentist is in your home country and not in Tenerife will be in your favour.

Could you not have brought up an email on your phone to show that the appointment as booked?

karlitob

rocky477 wrote: »

Hi guys, i just wanna know your opinion on this situation. So first things first i got stopped on the way to airport terminal. I told the officer that the purpose of me leaving the country is dental appointment which is where i live ,but i didn't have any documents to prove it(stupid me),and he told me you can do dental appointments here ,so he probably thought i am lying and I'm going for holidays.So long story short i got a fine,and i wanna ask if would get a letter of my dentist that i had an appointment,would that save me from paying the fine?Because as far as i know dental appointments is a legitimate reason for traveling,but the fact that i booked for the dentist appointment in my country during the Irelands's lockdown(mid March) thats whats bothering me.So what are the odds to win the case? Sorry for my grammar, English is my second language.

Is it essential or legitimate?

http://www.dentalcouncil.ie/files/covid/NOHO%20Essential%20Dental%20Care%20COVID%2019%20-%20Guidance%20%2020200402.pdf

godtabh

Wasn’t there the exact same thread with the exact same circumstances not so long ago? Some one stopped on the way to the airport for a ‘dental appointment’ and could prove it when question by AGS? Had no emails/texts/confirmation.

I’d find it hard to believe.

rocky477

karlitob wrote: »

Is it essential or legitimate?

essential

rocky477

silver2020 wrote: »

You don't need a solicitor, simply write in and appeal it and show the email threads / confirmations backed up by a letter from your dentist and a receipt for the work done.

That the dentist is in your home country and not in Tenerife will be in your favour.

Could you not have brought up an email on your phone to show that the appointment as booked?

The booking was made by phone,i'am not sure how to prove it

FishOnABike

rocky477 wrote: »

The booking was made by phone,i'am not sure how to prove it

How did you pay for the treatment?

If by card then a bank statement showing payment to a dental practice in your home country at the time of your travel might be proof enough of the reason for your travel.

Do you have a receipt for the payment?

If you have a bill pay phone your bill / call records should also show a call to the dentist in your home country.

Car99

rocky477 wrote: »

The booking was made by phone,i'am not sure how to prove it

If you're not able to figure that out your best bet is pay the fine fine and prepare for a foreign trip during a pandemic for medical reasons better in the future.

karlitob

rocky477 wrote: »

essential

Well then aren’t you lucky that essential services are already provided for in this country; and there’s no need for you to travel to another country.

The dental council of ireland - the authority on dentistry in Ireland - have made clear what essential looks like during the pandemic.

Anything outside that is not essential, though might be legitimate.


http://www.dentalcouncil.ie/files/covid/NOHO%20Essential%20Dental%20Care%20COVID%2019%20-%20Guidance%20%2020200402.pdf

karlitob

rocky477 wrote: »

The booking was made by phone,i'am not sure how to prove it

I think you’re trying to give us the runaround.

If only there was some means of communication that you could show that an essential dental procedure in a foreign country that couldn’t be conducted by dentists in Ireland. That despite the advanced clinical practice of these foreign dentists - more advanced than ireland it would appear - that they have no means of confirming a booking. Perhaps a letter - no, too slow. If only there was an electronic mailing system.

Mrs OBumble

Plenty of people from NESB are better served by giving treatment from health professionals who understand their language, and only get emergency treatment here.

karlitob

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Plenty of people from NESB are better served by giving treatment from health professionals who understand their language, and only get emergency treatment here.

I don’t disagree - (Presume you meant getting) - in normal circumstances.
But the guidance is clear on the context of a pandemic - both clinical and legal. If someone needs essential dental work they will get it. Interpreters are available.

If it’s not essential, but legitimate that is no excuse for international travel due to obvious public health reasons but it also due to equity issues. If some people are allowed to leave the country for services not provided in ireland due to the restrictions - as opposed to not provided at all which is different snd where the treatment abroad scheme comes in - then why can’t everyone/anyone. That’s not fair, in my view.

JustAThought

The fake scams of dental appointments have been widely reported and on national news for months - even dentists overseas are complaining about the Irish and British at it - booking an appointment, requesting & getting a confirmation letter, and then not showing up.

I’d say with the nonsense you’ve posted here you go to court and contest it you will not only have the fine but also hefty legal bills running into thousands. ‘My’ solicitors rate for fairly basic rote legal desk-work is e300 per hour. That dosn’t include court fees, court appearances, discovery or preparing a case. Nor a barrister to defend you - if that is needed. People have cooped onto this last November.

Pay the fine and next time don’t go on holidays and put other peoples lives at risk during a pandemic. Utterly selfish.

Lmkrnr

Pay up. You didn't do your homework on this. In the current situation you knew the Garda would be there and you took a chance with no paperwork to back up your story.

I don't agree with the fine and the process but you could of used avoided it by using Belfast or having paperwork.

sebdavis

Based on the amount of people flying aboard for "dental procedures" I think we should all think of the poor old Irish dentist, how can they make a living? we should start a Go Fund Me page for them.

GM228

karlitob wrote: »

Well then aren’t you lucky that essential services are already provided for in this country; and there’s no need for you to travel to another country.

The dental council of ireland - the authority on dentistry in Ireland - have made clear what essential looks like during the pandemic.

Anything outside that is not essential, though might be legitimate.


http://www.dentalcouncil.ie/files/covid/NOHO%20Essential%20Dental%20Care%20COVID%2019%20-%20Guidance%20%2020200402.pdf

Be that as it may the IDC is not the authority on the law, the law in relation to the airport offence is not qualified by being essential, simply that there is an appointment.

Here's the other thread on the topic for anyone interested:-

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058172102/1

The law and the unqualified exemptions for an appointment are all covered in it.

karlitob

GM228 wrote: »

Be that as it may the IDC is not the authority on the law, the law in relation to the airport offence is not qualified by being essential, simply that there is an appointment.

Here's the other thread on the topic for anyone interested:-

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058172102/1

The law and the unqualified exemptions for an appointment are all covered in it.

Thanks for that. Good post by PunkIPA below that explains it very well.

I understand that the law requires a reasonable excuse to leave the house - which a dental appointment is. But I don’t accept the bone fides of the OP. I sincerely doubt it was essential. And the reasons for me being on my admittedly very high horse are above - all essential services can be provided in Ireland, there is no reason to leave with the exception of essential services that are unavailable. And again, if everyone wanted to get procedures unavailable in ireland *due to the lockdown* and went abroad, well it would make a mockery of the very law we’re talking about. What would be the point in that law to reduce cases of Covid if international travel was allowed. Why do people who can afford to travel for non-essential procedures be at more of an advantage than those who can’t afford to travel.

Like my coach always said - there’s a big difference between legal/illegal and right/wrong.

And for those reasons I have very little sympathy for the OP. Though the parable of stones and glass houses comes to mind.



4A. (1) Without prejudice to the generality of Regulation 4, and subject to paragraph (2), an applicable person shall not leave his or her place of residence to go to an airport or port for the purpose of leaving the State without reasonable excuse. (emphasis added)

This is the relevant regulation. The OP is being charged with leaving his place of residence to travel to an airport for the purpose of leaving the State. The few miles between the OP's house and the airport are the only relevant miles to consider in respect of this whole problem.

The question is therefore whether the OP had a reasonable excuse to leave the State. The OP left the State to attend a dental appointment. A dental appointment is definitionally considered a reasonable excuse in the regulations themselves without qualification.

The regulations don't state that the reasonable excuse must be the sole or even the dominant reason for leaving the State.

With respect to the dental appointment itself, the regulations don't even say that it must be an essential or even a reasonable one. You can chalk this down to an oversight, but the fact remains that so long as the OP traveled for the purpose of attending a dental appointment, he is perfectly entitled to take an extended holiday over there. All those chancers who booked dental appointments on the Costa del Sol were also perfectly entitled to do so, whatever Drew Harris might say (provided they actually attended).

I cannot imagine a Judge deciding on what dental treatment is essential and what isn’t, he/she would certainly need the opinion of a dental professional to decide this, and no doubt a Judge would be concerned for the person if they were subsequently to suffer pain.

I’ve been giving expert testimony in relation to dental/facial injuries for almost 20 years, never once during that time has a judge considered making a ruling on what is considered essential as opposed to necessary.

karlitob

Dav010 wrote: »

I cannot imagine a Judge deciding on what dental treatment is essential and what isn’t, he/she would certainly need the opinion of a dental professional to decide this, and no doubt a Judge would be concerned for the person if they were subsequently to suffer pain.

I’ve been giving expert testimony in relation to dental/facial injuries for almost 20 years, never once during that time has a judge considered making a ruling on what is considered essential as opposed to necessary.

That’s interesting. Thank you.

For my own knowledge, would you agree with the premise that - outside of the treatment abroad scheme, and in the context of the pandemic/level 5 restrictions, and with what the IDC have issued - that essential services are available in ireland and that travel in this instance may have been legitimate but hardly ‘essential’.

Thanks.

karlitob

karlitob wrote: »

That’s interesting. Thank you.

For my own knowledge, would you agree with the premise that - outside of the treatment abroad scheme, and in the context of the pandemic/level 5 restrictions, and with what the IDC have issued - that essential services are available in ireland and that travel in this instance may have been legitimate but hardly ‘essential’.

Thanks.

Can a Judge decide where you have your dental treatment?

Irish people have been able to move around unhindered for dental appointments throughout the lockdown, if a Gardai phoned my Clinic to see if a driver had an appointment and was it essential, I would confirm the first and tell him/her they have no right to confidential information about treatment for the second.

As I said above, from my experience in Court, I have never seen a Judge involve themselves in a conversation about what treatments are necessary other than taking advice from dental professionals.

karlitob

Dav010 wrote: »

Can a Judge decide where you have your dental treatment?

Irish people have been able to move around unhindered for dental appointments throughout the lockdown, if a Gardai phoned my Clinic to see if a driver had an appointment and was it essential, I would confirm the first and tell him/her they have no right to confidential information about treatment for the second.

As I said above, from my experience in Court, I have never seen a Judge involve themselves in a conversation about what treatments are necessary other than taking advice from dental professionals.

I take the point and understand what you’re saying.

I had meant in general and outside of the ‘legal’ discussion (notwithstanding the clear title of this forum).

I guess I’m back to an earlier point I made. Lots of people in this state have been unable to access healthcare due to restriction of non-essential services - outpatients, inpatient-daycase procedures, child assessments etc etc. Essential services have been delineated for all clinical areas since the start of the pandemic - for all lockdown ‘levels’.

I understand your point. I understand it’s not illegal. I just don’t think it’s fair that persons can have non-essential treatment when other people can’t.

Just my two cents.


Thanks for response and engagement.