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Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,312 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Still no such thing as a "pro vaxxer."


    You guys are all anti vaxxers though.

    How come you're ignoring all of the claims made by your anti vaxxer buddies?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭ Markus Antonius


    Omicron did all the work, the vaccines took the credit.

    The skeptics in this forum would literally take or do anything to fit in. Very sad.

    For some reason this old video popped up in my youtube recommended (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7yb3AfHYNY) It gives a stark 10 year before and after of patients who started on a treatment of OxyContin for pain relief in 1998. Initially of course doctors, patients and patient's families singing it's praises from the rooftop as a revolutionary new medication only for things to start deteriorating very quickly and ultimately destroying their lives.

    But but but, FDA, but but but Science, they are never wrong!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,312 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    FYI @snowcat. Before you leap onto supporting this chap because he's on your side, he believes that all space flight is faked and he is possibly a flat earther.


    Gosh it sure looks like a lot of the folks agreeing with you hold some really embarrassing views. Weird that...



  • Registered Users Posts: 900 ✭✭✭ snowcat


    Yes keep telling yourself that. You are a prime example of an extreme pro vaxxer. A mirror image of an extreme anti vaxxer. I am neither extreme pro or extreme anti but that seems to infuriate you and some of your friends.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,305 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robinph


    Not sure why you are bringing up oxycontin in a thread about covid vaccines?


    The only similarity is that they are both made by drug companies, but then the only similarity between JFK and Diana is that they both died in a car and that doesn't stop conspiracy theorists from getting the topics mixed up in threads around here.



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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    However when the vaccices started to underperform the platform shifted. We had a divergence from the vaccines will protect you (full Stop) to the vaccines will protect you from serious illness and death. (We sort of expected that!). 

    This is my problem with the vaccines. When the vaccines were first rolled out the clear expectation was that the primary function was to prevent catching Covid.

    When it became abundantly clear that this was not working as intended, but they were having good effect in preventing serious illness and death, very few vaccine proponents acknowledged this. It was spun as if the primary function all along was to reduce serious illness and death, and anybody who thought they were taking the vaccine to prevent them getting Covid just didn't understand how vaccines worked.

    This is total and utter nonsense, and as far as I am concerned it undermines all subsequent claims about the vaccine efficacy and safety.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,305 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robinph



    This is my problem with the vaccines. When the vaccines were first rolled out the clear expectation was that the primary function was to prevent catching Covid.


    No it wasn't. There was never any claims of the vaccines being infallible they were just hopeful of having something that was at least 40% effective at reducing symptoms / death.


    The only people claiming that the vaccines were meant to be a miracle cure is conspiracy theorists, who two years ago were telling us that covid didn't exist, or that these vaccines they are now so concerned about didn't exist either.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    No it wasn't. There was never any claims of the vaccines being infallible they were just hopeful of having something that was at least 40% effective at reducing symptoms / death.

    I never said the vaccines were designed or claimed to be infallible. That's ridiculous. I said they were claimed and approved to prevent Covid. Not necessarily to do that with 100% success, that's also ridiculous, but there is no doubt originally the primary function was to prevent Covid - not reduce serious symptoms/death.

    And for you to claim now that the vaccine was originally approved and rolled out in the hope of "having something that was at least 40% effective at reducing symptoms / death" is a blatant lie and exactly the sort of thing I am talking about.

    It is impossible to take seriously any claims or arguments on vaccine efficacy or safety from vaccine proponents who try to rewrite history, whether it is an anonymous internet poster or the FDA, the CDC, HSE, WHO etc etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭ patnor1011


    Exactly.

    However, certain regular posters here do suffer from some form of selective amnesia.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭ patnor1011


    Not sure? That is because you choose to ignore another similarity which is that serious damage or side effects started to show only after some time passed or after prolonged use.

    What are we on now? Second booster which has to be taken within 4 months after the first one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,312 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    It's true though. Ask him yourself if you doubt.

    Likewise you've been constantly ignoring the lies and dishonesty pumped out by "people just concerned about the vaccine".

    Why are you hit by such selective mutism when you see this? Is it because you believe there aren't any examples?


    Still no such animal as an "extreme pro vaxxer" though. No matter how much you keep telling yourself that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,312 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Pat, why are you pretending you didn't open this thread based on trying to lie about the Vaers and eudravigilance data?

    What serious effects do you believe the vaccines cause only after extreme long terms and repeated use? What other vaccines show similar?

    And what precisely is this based on other than your personal untrained, highly biased and very dishonest opinion?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,305 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robinph


    I didn't say that the vaccines were 40% effective. I said that when in early trials the likes of WHO were hopeful of something that would be at least 40% effective, and that if they managed that it would be good enough to make a difference and that is approximately the effectiveness of other vaccines, such as the annual flu ones which vary between 40-60% only depending on the year.


    It turned out they were far more effective than that.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,305 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robinph


    Is there anything showing up regarding serious side effects that only appear after a year?


    As for opioids, it was well known the effects of them. The thing with Oxycontin was that they claimed it didn't have those effects and there was conspiracies with trying to hide that information etc.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    Effective at what? You said "they were just hopeful of having something that was at least 40% effective at reducing symptoms / death"

    Whilst that may have turned out to be what the vaccines were effective at, it is a lie to claim that is what was hoped for when the vaccines were initially approved.

    The hope and expectation, and hence the marketing, was entirely focussed on the fact that they would be effective at preventing symptomatic cases of Covid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,511 ✭✭✭ whippet


    what scientific metrics are you using for your 'opinion' ?

    When we had a couple of thousand cases our hospitals were over run and pressure on ICU beds was almost unmanageable .. yet when we had 20-30k cases per day our hospitals managed .... the effects of vaccines on the potency of the virus was profound.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,305 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robinph


    I'm on about before the vaccines were approved, when they were still being developed and not even started testing yet. Then the WHO was just hopeful of something, anything, that would work a bit. Absolutely no expectation that any vaccines would emerge anything like as effective as they turned out.

    Even the least effective ones that finally got released were well above what was hoped for back in early 2020, or late 2019 before anyone had actually heard of covid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    Do we need to start a new thread for the Monkeypox vaccine conspiracy, luckly enough they had some freeze dried since 2019, https://www.newsweek.com/monkeypox-cased-uk-massachusetts-case-vaccine-ordered-us-1708075

    Any trial data on mixing the monkeypox with 2 jabs and 2 boosters?



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    Your post confirms exactly what I am saying - the huge volume of cases is a very clear indicator that the vaccines were not effective at preventing symptomatic cases of Covid.

    As to the fact that the hospitals managed at best suggests that the benefits of the vaccine were reducing severe outcomes of covid rather than preventing cases in the first place. Also exactly what I have been saying.

    I say "at best" because we'll never know for sure if the hospitals coped because Omicron was a milder variant thus reducing the severity, or the vaccines reduced the severity.

    Either way it does not contradict the opinion that the vaccines have been very poor at preventing cases of Covid. it bolsters it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,511 ✭✭✭ whippet


    but your opinion is just that .. an opinion. There are scientific studies done by actual experts and scientists that would not support your opinion. Everyone is entitled to an option - it just does not make that opinion correct



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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    I'm on about before the vaccines were approved, when they were still being developed and not even started testing yet. Then the WHO was just hopeful of something, anything, that would work a bit.

    Fair enough, I wouldn't dispute at that all. But you initially posted to contradict my post "When the vaccines were first rolled out the clear expectation was that the primary function was to prevent catching Covid."

    In the context of my point on claimed efficacy and safety, the reasons why the vaccines that had been developed were approved for human use is very important. It is very different from some vague aspirations as to future success whilst being developed.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    That the vaccines were initially granted approval solely to prevent symptomatic cases of Covid is a statement of fact.

    If it is your opinion that with a 90%+ vaccination rate and over 20k cases a day that is evidence that the vaccines are effective at preventing Covid, then fair enough.

    In my opinion, it is evidence that the vaccines are not effective at preventing Covid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,430 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe



    People just thought vaccines = disease be gone. Which wasn't the case with a virus that mutates a lot.

    Certain people seem to act like we have some "contract" with the virus, we don't. We could have a new wave. There could be a new variant that is much more deadly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭ patnor1011


    Up until omicron came and even while after it was out every poster who even hinted that vaccines do not stop transmission was banned from every thread but conspiracy one. Fast forward few months and rhetoric changed to that they "reduce transmission" - whatever that means since it is hard to prove that point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,511 ✭✭✭ whippet


    Exactly ... 'your opinion'

    but I'd but much more weight behind the opinions and studies of those who are experts in the field and know about epidemiology, vaccines and efficacy.

    I've said before that my wife has two decades of experience in researching and interpreting medical data in this area ... her opinion is vastly different to yours.

    No disrespect but not all opinions are equal



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    Is your wife's opinion that the vaccines are effective at preventing symptomatic cases of Covid? And you? Are the vaccines are effective at preventing symptomatic cases of covid, in your opinion?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,430 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    Note how you claim in this thread not to be an anti-vaxxer or conspiracy theorist, yeah..



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,511 ✭✭✭ whippet


    my opinion is irrelevant.

    My wife's opinion is that the high uptake of the vaccines in Ireland (90%+ in the main demographic) had very very positive effects on the case numbers requiring hospital treatment including ICU, which equated to lower fatalities. Your straw man argument about 'preventing symptomatic cases' is irrelevant as the main priority of governments was to keep people out of hospital and serious illness.

    You can try and shift the goalposts all you want - but the reality is that the vaccination program was a very positive program.

    As for the safety of vaccines (which this thread is about) ... it is now beyond doubt as the only discussion points being put forward are around efficacy and the usual 'global Pharma conspiracies'



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,430 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    Strange, I've repeated said the vaccines do not stop transmission in many threads.

    When I see the ban lists it's typically a bunch of foaming-at-the-mouth anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists, the same list. So yeah, not surprising really.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭ patnor1011


    Your problem is that you fantasize way too much about how you do know what others meant or why they did what they did...

    Also talking about "personal untrained, highly biased and very dishonest opinion" is what you do here too considering that not even year ago you were convinced that vaccine grants you immunity.



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