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Covid vaccines safety

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,128 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robinph


    So why are you so concerned with getting a booster that you claim won't work against omicron, when you also believe that delta is the predominant version making people end up in hospital?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,107 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Also a few pages ago, wasn't he claiming that he was 100% sure that he had been infected by the omicron variant because he claimed it was the variant behind the majority of infections?


    Again, he's either contradicting himself so hard he's arguing against himself, or he's just spouting lies as they come.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,128 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robinph


    Wait, what? Scottish people are so genetically different from the population of the rest of the UK and Europe, such that they are reacting to Covid variants in a totally different way to anyone else?

    Seriously?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭ Phishnet


    No it doesn’t. But why has the HSPC stopped releasing such data from Irish hospitalisations since November 2021, might not suit the narrative.I see no other reason. Maybe we are heading in the direction of Scotland (another anomaly).



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,107 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭ Phishnet


    The unvaccinated are 11 times more likely to be hospitalized because of COVID than vaccinated residents, according to IDPH."


    “The UKHSA shared a report estimating that Omicron-infected individuals have 50% lower risk to visit or to be admitted to the hospital than people with infection due to Delta (hazard ratio 0.53, 95% CI 0.50-0.57). They also found a 65% lower hospitalisation risk for Omicron cases who had received 2 doses of a vaccine and 81% reduction with 3 doses, compared to unvaccinated.”

    This comes from


    Thats at odd with the assertion that you are 11 times more likely to be hospitalised because of COVID than the vaccinated when in comes to this current omicron variant surge!



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,986 ✭✭✭ Igotadose


    WRT the article in the Scottish Herald, the reporter had an interesting Twitter thread where she said, "I don't understand this data."


    https://twitter.com/HMcArdleHT/status/1481261518574473224


    After a bunch of 'me too!' responses, a few more sober heads showed up and this tweet shows what likely the data mean:

    You shouldn't be.


    Here's a working hypothesis:


    Unvaccinated probably younger and more likely to have antibodies from prior infection. Less likely to catch and get v. sick.


    Vaccinated likely to be older and more vulnerable. More likely to have ABs from injection - which wane.


    ABs are antibodies.

    https://twitter.com/BySpoke/status/1481928498734374913



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,760 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    ?

    The above bolded part further emphases my initial point - the unvaccinated are more likely to be hospitalized, they take up disproportionally more beds and ICU beds than vaccinated.

    And from your own link:

    "Vaccination remains a key component of the multi-layered approach needed to address the ongoing circulation and reduce the impact of the Delta and Omicron VOCs. Efforts should continue to increase full vaccination uptake in individuals who are currently unvaccinated or partially vaccinated and accelerate the roll-out of booster doses."

    And the first report states the following:

    "The results show the increased protective effect of a booster dose of the COVID-19 vaccine, even in those with prior infection, against symptomatic and asymptomatic Omicron infections compared to uninfected unvaccinated participants, who experienced the highest infection risk (table 3). There is an additional incremental benefit from each vaccine exposure, even in those who have had prior infection (confirmed through antibody or detection through asymptomatic and symptomatic testing). This is an early unadjusted output with uncertainty in the estimates which will be iterated and refined in future analyses."

    Basically vaccines and boosters are good



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,388 ✭✭✭✭ Timberrrrrrrr


    Scotland, where numbers are dropping g and restrictions are being eased? That Scotland?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,760 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe



    So Covid 19 is a much bigger risk to the heart than vaccination

    "Before COVID-19 the incidence of myocarditis was between one and 10 cases per 100,000 people per year. Rates are highest in males between 18 and 30 years old. Interestingly, most cases of myocarditis in the highest risk group are in otherwise healthy and active people.

    According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the risk of myocarditis after infection with COVID-19 is much higher, at 146 cases per 100,000. The risk is higher for males, older adults (ages 50+) and children under 16 years old. Soccer player Alphonso Davies, 21, of Canada’s national men’s team, was sidelined by heart inflammation after having COVID-19.

    Myocarditis following COVID-19 vaccination is rare and the risk is much smaller than the risks of cardiac injury linked to COVID-19 itself.

    Based on a study out of Israel, the risk of post-vaccine myocarditis is 2.13 cases per 100,000 vaccinated, which is within the range usually seen in the general population. This study is consistent with others in the United States and Israel which put the overall incidence of post-vaccine myocarditis between 0.3 and five cases per 100,000 people."



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭ Hoop66





  • Registered Users Posts: 23,388 ✭✭✭✭ Timberrrrrrrr


    Perfectly describes what it's like dealing with the anti vax crowd in here some days.


    The donkey told the tiger, "The grass is blue." 


    The tiger replied, "No, the grass is green ."


    The discussion became heated, and the two decided to submit the issue to arbitration, so they approached the lion. 


    As they approached the lion on his throne, the donkey started screaming: ′′Your Highness, isn't it true that the grass is blue?" 


    The lion replied: "If you believe it is true, the grass is blue." 


    The donkey rushed forward and continued: ′′The tiger disagrees with me, contradicts me and annoys me. Please punish him."


    The king then declared: ′′The tiger will be punished with 3 days of silence." 


    The donkey jumped with joy and went on his way, content and repeating ′′The grass is blue, the grass is blue..." 


    The tiger asked the lion, "Your Majesty, why have you punished me, after all, the grass is green?" 


    The lion replied, ′′You've known and seen the grass is green."


    The tiger asked, ′′So why do you punish me?" 


    The lion replied, "That has nothing to do with the question of whether the grass is blue or green. The punishment is because it is degrading for a brave, intelligent creature like you to waste time arguing with an ass, and on top of that, you came and bothered me with that question just to validate something you already knew was true!"


    The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn't care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions. Never waste time on discussions that make no sense. There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand. Others who are blinded by ego, hatred and resentment, and the only thing that they want is to be right even if they aren’t. 


    When IGNORANCE SCREAMS, intelligence moves on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭ Hoop66




  • Registered Users Posts: 23,388 ✭✭✭✭ Timberrrrrrrr


    LOL

    https://inews.co.uk/news/covid-vaccine-side-effects-placebo-adverse-events-jab-study-1408939?utm_source=upday&utm_medium=referral

    "Covid vaccine side effects: Two-thirds of adverse events from jab are down to placebo effect, study finds

    One-third of clinical trial participants who received no vaccine reported adverse reactions like headache and fatigue"



  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭ Kumejima


    "That myocarditis you've just been diagnosed with, you're making it up! 😆"Haha, why you having a heart attack bro? Its all in your head. 😂."

    "Man you are have one overactive imagination. The vaccines are safe and efffective. Anyway, RIP bro🤣"



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭ protonmike


    Which you're far more likely to get from covid even if you're in peak health?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,347 ✭✭✭ Fighting Tao


    The mental gymnastics being played by posters that deny the fact that covid increases the chance of heart issues are worthy of a gold medal in the olympics.



  • Subscribers Posts: 35,375 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    19 times more likely to be diagnosed with myocarditis from catching covid. So perhaps your "bro"s myocarditis is down to them catching covid??

    But maybe you think covid doesn't exist.... Therefore your safe :D



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,107 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    But that's not what anyone is arguing.

    What has been argued is that myocarditis is far more of a risk from covid. This being on top of the other effects of covid that you conspiracy theories have been constantly downplaying.

    You won't address this though. Your buddies won't call out you dishonest twisting of arguments.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭ c.p.w.g.w


    It's s study in rats, and it's a well referenced study...

    The nano lipids used to incase the mRNA is supposed to stay in the injection site and not travel, yet in rats it does travel and to the ovaries (a potential concern for women)

    It gets shrugged off because it's only rats, but there is no funding to see if the same thing happens in humans and what the potential dangers are...

    A lot of women have had issues with their periods, some who have went through menopause and get a period...

    Of course these are all acedotes, but there is certainly a lot

    30,000 women seems like it requires some genuine investigation...

    But when I first heard about, it was followed up with sure it's some anti-vax nonsense, but it's a concern...

    Full disclosure, i'm double vaxxed



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,986 ✭✭✭ Igotadose


    FWIW there's a risk of neonatal gangrene due to Covid (read this only if you've got a strong stomach, the images are horrifying):https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/crpm-2020-0086/html?lang=en

    Obstetricians and gynecologists are strongly urging pregnant women to get the vaccine. They've had to perform neonatal surgery including amputations n some cases for the condition that paper highlights.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,760 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    Okay, and in your link

    "After reviewing the reports, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) says it "does not support a link" between Covid vaccines and the symptoms.

    Menstrual disorders are extremely common, can be caused by many different things, and the numbers of women affected are low, it says.

    Period changes have also been reported by some women after infection with the virus itself, and with long Covid."

    Also, a recent study has suggested that two thirds of reactions to Covid jabs are not caused by the vaccine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,107 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Well firstly, the first sentence on your link is:

    Writing in the BMJ, Dr Victoria Male, from Imperial College London, said the body's immune response was the likely cause, not something in the vaccines.

    There is no evidence they have any impact on pregnancy or fertility.

    And:

    After reviewing the reports, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) says it "does not support a link" between Covid vaccines and the symptoms.

    Yet you claim that link shows there's a connection?


    So now the concern is that it effects fertility?

    Ok. Do you reject all of the previous claims being made in this thread cause this is a new one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 406 ✭✭ shillyshilly


    Just to wade in on this from a personal perspective, partner is double vaxxed, never been on any form of contraception, periods like clockwork, has children and trying for more....

    her periods have been irregular since her 1st jab.... they recovered after 3 months, but then she had her second, and they still haven't recovered to normal (had her 2nd jab Aug 2021).

    Like you've highlighted, the vaccine is not the suspected cause, more so the immune response, but you get into a chicken and egg argument of well you wouldn't have the auto-immune response if you haven't had the vaccine blah blah blah...

    It is definitely something of concern for us. The BMJ study is not supposed to have any preliminary results until Feb/Mar with a full report by summer.

    BMJ aren't the only ones looking into this either, there are numerous studies ongoing (if anyone is interested in taking part in any, there are numerous study links on Reddit that I can link to)...

    So, is there any concrete research evidence of an issue... no (as it hasn't been researched with a high enough sample size to prove causality)

    Does that mean there isn't an issue ... no, there is enough empirical evidence out there that there may be an issue for some people

    Does that mean the vaccine causes issues ... not necessarily

    I'm waiting for the science...



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,107 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    I think the issue here is that conspiracy theorists are trying to point to potential issues like this and use it to validate the other claims they have made.

    They are going to point to this and claim things like "See we were right all along!"

    This issue is new and entirely separate from the claimed side effects being discussed. I don't think we can just ignore what conspiracy theorists have been claiming for the last 100+ pages and pretend they were right to claim all that false stuff.


    Also, I think that the fact that this potential issue has been identified, addressed and is being studied shows that the claims of cover ups of adverse effects are false.



  • Registered Users Posts: 406 ✭✭ shillyshilly


    Most definitely the case, and I fully agree with your last paragraph.

    Also, as a disclaimer for anyone who possibly attempt to hijack my point, it's a personal situation, we know of 2 other couples in a similar situation... But we know of vastly more who have been vaccinated who have gotten pregnant, and have healthy babies...



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,986 ✭✭✭ Igotadose


    The vaccine causes issues. That's what the disclaimers and warnings are about for any vaccine, or in fact any medication you receive. There is always risk.

    "Waiting for the science" in this case will come down to numbers - like, there's a .00001% of irregular menses in women in <blah> age group. But, there's a .0005% chance of necrotic gangrene in fetuses of unvaccinated mothers that contract Covid. That kind of thing.


    Wait all you want, but eventually that's what it'll come down to. Do you feel lucky?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,986 ✭✭✭ Igotadose


    And another thing - is is right to get pregnant during a pandemic? Just asking.



  • Registered Users Posts: 406 ✭✭ shillyshilly


    my point was, I was waiting on the science to prove if there's a link or not.... my personal circumstances, or someone else's isn't going to dictate whether it's 100% true or not... with the studies still ongoing, I have to wait on the results from that..

    100% know that no medical intervention is risk free.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,107 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    So far in the last few pages the "concern" conspiracy theorists have had went from "the protection from vaccines has no effect" (Proven to be untrue) to "The vaccines cause heart issues" (Shown that covid causes many times more). And now we're going to start hearing about how they're just concerned about women's fertility.

    And it won't be just about a potential link that scientists seem doubtful about, they will be telling us that the vaccines definitely cause it.



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