School uniform policies of Irish schools

Jeremy Sproket

The nonsense that goes on here makes me sure glad that I completed all of my compulsory education in my native country (Sweden).

What passes here for uniform policy is bordering on fascism.

My brother has grown a long beard during lockdown, he is a few years younger than me so he is in the fifth year of secondary. He was pulled to the side by his head of year teacher (or whatever it's called) and told he won't be allowed to attend any more classes until he is clean shaven.

We checked the uniform policy text and it doesn't mention about bears, it just says that you have "to be neatly groomed, smartly dressed in full uniform with no excessive jewellery, ie, a single ring and a small pendant or broach with no political symbols".

So the beard doesn't fall foul of this specifically, his beard is neat and tidy. 
I even heard stories where the boys or girls can't take off the jumper in class even on a sweltering day, because "uniform". 

In one of the schools I attended in my home country, the closest thing to a uniform policy we had was " no more than certain cm below the collar bone for tops, no hemline exposed, skirts or shorts must accompany leggings" this was a unisex rule in a unisex school ... you could come to school with pink hair and clown shoes in Sweden if you wanted.

What is the reason for ridiculous rules here? Being a girl in Swedish school seems much nicer. I can only imagine what it would be like if I went to an Irish school.

EmmetSpiceland

I never minded wearing a uniform in school. By 6th year we could, basically, wear what we wanted, within reason, as long as we had the “school tie” on.

What I could never understand was why girls were, and still are, made wear skirts. Winter is bloody freezing. Just seems like an outdated, bizarre, “requirement”.

Jeremy Sproket

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

What is the reason for ridiculous rules here?

Because the majority of jobs that you do when your 'grown up' also have dress codes.

alroley

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

What I could never understand was why girls were, and still are, made wear skirts. Winter is bloody freezing. Just seems like an outdated, bizarre, “requirement”.

Girls are allowed to wear trousers in the school I teach in, but pretty much none of them actually do.

Normal One

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

What is the reason for ridiculous rules here?

A lot of rules originate from the catholofascist hierarchy.

Gatling

Even boys are allowed to wear skirts these days

Nothing wrong with wearing uniform anyway, saved the bother of deciding what to wear everyday. I miss it.

Jeremy Sproket

bubblypop wrote: »

Because the majority of jobs that you do when your 'grown up' also have dress codes.

It's funny you mention that. My bro is grown up btw if you are trying to imply that he is in any way immature.

Workplaces might have dress codes but you don't see department managers standing outside doing shoe inspection at the doors or sending people home for not wearing a crested jumper. Few work places have such ridiculous policies.

Besides, none of these issues that people are saying will happen without uniforms are happening in Sweden. We get on perfectly well without uniforms.

ednwireland

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Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

What is the reason for ridiculous rules here?

school boards of management generally decide uniform rules. the parents can get on these boards of management but guess what most decide to shout and complain from outside rather than trying to change the rules.

KevRossi

My ex is a teacher in Germany. A number of schools there have introduced, on the back of a student vote, school clothing. School there can be a fashion and wealth parade between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'.

Some schools go over the top. I'd be in favour of t-shirt or polo shirt with school badge (that can be purchsed and sown on separately). Sweater or hoodless zip top, again with sew on badge. Choice of trackie bottoms or no-brand jeans/trousers. Non-branded footwear as well.

Have them in one colour code per school. Keep branded names off and see how they get on.

Grandeeod

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

What is the reason for ridiculous rules here?

When I was in Secondary back in the '80s, the unshaved bumfluff as we called it was far worse than any managed beard. Not a word said. But once I showed up in school with managed side burns, I was told to shave them off, yet the lads with all kinds of uneven hairs on their face had nothing said to them. Some of them looked like nanny goats with masses of hair growing out of their chins.:D But no the groomed lads with side burns, managed beards/ moustaches got the grief.

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

What I could never understand was why girls were, and still are, made wear skirts. Winter is bloody freezing. Just seems like an outdated, bizarre, “requirement”.

In my daughters secondary school, she chose to wear trousers and its allowed. But that doesn't stop 13 year old lads calling her a lesbian because she wears them. If she was a lesbian that would be homophobic talk. I had a word with the school and nothing was done. I know one of the lads and his parents are altar munchers so I'd be wasting my time there. This is in 21st century Ireland after we achieved so much.

RebelButtMunch

bubblypop wrote: »

Because the majority of jobs that you do when your 'grown up' also have dress codes.

Yes, and the ladies in the office have to wear skirts .,.. 1950's called looking for that post.

suicide_circus

alroley wrote: »

Girls are allowed to wear trousers in the school I teach in, but pretty much none of them actually do.

Internalised misogyny perhaps?

Jeremy Sproket

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

It's funny you mention that. My bro is grown up btw if you are trying to imply that he is in any way immature.

Workplaces might have dress codes but you don't see department managers standing outside doing shoe inspection at the doors or sending people home for not wearing a crested jumper. Few work places have such ridiculous policies.

Besides, none of these issues that people are saying will happen without uniforms are happening in Sweden. We get on perfectly well without uniforms.

He's in school, he doesn't have a full time job, that's what I meant.
There's plenty of workplaces that will send you home or make you change/clean up if you rock up to work, not looking the part.

And uniforms are actually a very recent thing in schools in Ireland. Very few had uniforms until about 20/30 years ago.

Tork

Is Jeremy Sproket the Swedish equivalent of that German Angus Von Bismarck fella?

salmocab

I’m sure there’s an Irish guy in Sweden giving out about some rule or other that he takes exception to that really doesn’t impact him at all.

Notmything

I've no real issue with uniformsin themselves. It's the costs that I can't abide and the pressure families are put under.

I'm aware of one school where over half the children are classed as in poverty and the school provides meals which are in many instances the only hot meal that child gets.
Yet the school jumper and crest are 45-60 euro, tracksuit is 60-80 euro. This is not acceptable imo. There was a proposal last year to introduce cheaper uniforms but it went nowhere.

On the other hand I know of another school where at the end of each school year families are encouraged to donate or swap parts of the school uniform to reduce costs and encourage recycling

gameoverdude

suicide_circus wrote:

Internalised misogyny perhaps?

More than likely, neh...definitely.

Gregor Samsa

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

What passes here for uniform policy is bordering on fascism.

It’s true, this was in my school rules:

Navy V neck pullover with school crest
White shirt
School tie
Grey slacks
Invade Poland

Grandeeod

Another tale from my daughters secondary school. There's a dedicated school jacket with a crest for the winter months. 80 quid. They're not allowed wear any other jacket/coat. I've seen so many walking to and from the bus in the depths of winter with either no jacket or an ordinary one, but once they get off the bus at the school, off it has to come on school grounds. With windows and doors open due to covid, it's borderline cruelty. Someone mentioned getting onto a board of management to change things. LOL! In my experience you will be out numbered by the status quo. Its tradition.:rolleyes:

0lddog

Looks like not much has changed in over 60 years
A flavour of what happens in Japan

Would any of you be infavour of 'Recruit Suits' ?


( also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D1hebI6QdI for jnr school )

Chris_5339762

Lets not forget that the local shop (usually run by a relative of some teachers or PTA people) usually is the only stockist of the very expensive uniform.

ulster

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

The nonsense that goes on here makes me sure glad that I completed all of my compulsory education in my native country (Sweden).

What passes here for uniform policy is bordering on fascism.

My brother has grown a long beard during lockdown, he is a few years younger than me so he is in the fifth year of secondary. He was pulled to the side by his head of year teacher (or whatever it's called) and told he won't be allowed to attend any more classes until he is clean shaven.

We checked the uniform policy text and it doesn't mention about bears, it just says that you have "to be neatly groomed, smartly dressed in full uniform with no excessive jewellery, ie, a single ring and a small pendant or broach with no political symbols".

So the beard doesn't fall foul of this specifically, his beard is neat and tidy. 
I even heard stories where the boys or girls can't take off the jumper in class even on a sweltering day, because "uniform". 

In one of the schools I attended in my home country, the closest thing to a uniform policy we had was " no more than certain cm below the collar bone for tops, no hemline exposed, skirts or shorts must accompany leggings" this was a unisex rule in a unisex school ... you could come to school with pink hair and clown shoes in Sweden if you wanted.

What is the reason for ridiculous rules here? Being a girl in Swedish school seems much nicer. I can only imagine what it would be like if I went to an Irish school.

I highly doubt that you're a Sweedish girl. There ain't no Sweedish girls on here. This is AH. 30 something's with neckbeards and beer bellies.

L1011

bubblypop wrote: »

Because the majority of jobs that you do when your 'grown up' also have dress codes.

In 1980, yes, when it lots of basic office work, factories or retail.

In 2021, not really. "Please wear clothes" is about it in a lot of places.

Princess Calla

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

Workplaces might have dress codes but you don't see department managers standing outside doing shoe inspection at the doors or sending people home for not wearing a crested jumper. Few work places have such ridiculous policies.

.

If your workplace requires you to wear a uniform you will get pulled up on it if you are not wearing it correctly.

I had a manager pull me up over the hem of my skirt falling down ....I sat behind a counter , no one could see my skirt nevermind the hem....rules are rules though.

KevRossi

Notmything wrote: »

I've no real issue with uniformsin themselves. It's the costs that I can't abide and the pressure families are put under.

We had a light blue jumper. Either pay £20 for one in the one shop that sold it, which was a lot of money in the 80's, or else get a generic pale blue one in Dunnes or Penny's for £4 and buy the badge for £1.

I had 2 Dunnes jumpers that I rotated all year between washes. Probably had to buy 2 other sets over the 5 years as I got bigger, but we just took the badge off the first ones and reused them.

Shirts had to be white-blue-grey, no issues with patterns, trousers had to be grey-black, had to be slacks, no Chinos. No rules on shoes. School tie; had the same tie for 5 years, gave it to a neighbours lad when I finished. The ties were indestructible.

Oddly enough I've never worked in a job where I needed a tie, so since I left school I literally only wore them for weddings and funerals. Long may it last.

Beechwoodspark

To people complaining about the school council/parent association why not seek to join it ?

I’m on the parents council for my child’s primary school

It would open your eyes what goes on and what the teachers have to deal with and the sometimes great lengths the teachers etc involved go to for the school children’s benefit. Certainly has made me think again

2lazytogetup

was wondering about uniforms today. if a school uniform gets torn and unwearable and the person doesnt have a second one, and shops are closed. what do they do. just wear any clothes they want.

sebdavis

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

To people complaining about the school council/parent association why not seek to join it ?

I’m on the parents council for my sons primary school

It would open your eyes what goes on and what the teachers have to deal with and the sometimes great lengths the teachers go to for the school children’s benefit. Certainly has made me think again

No, better to sit on internet and complain

Mrs OBumble

Grandeeod wrote: »

Another tale from my daughters secondary school. There's a dedicated school jacket with a crest for the winter months. 80 quid. They're not allowed wear any other jacket/coat. I've seen so many walking to and from the bus in the depths of winter with either no jacket or an ordinary one, but once they get off the bus at the school, off it has to come on school grounds. With windows and doors open due to covid, it's borderline cruelty. Someone mentioned getting onto a board of management to change things. LOL! In my experience you will be out numbered by the status quo. Its tradition.:rolleyes:

And how much does an ordinary jacket cost? Not just any less jacket, but a puffer one, or whatever the cool kids are wearing this season.

L1011

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And how much does an ordinary jacket cost? Not just any less jacket, but a puffer one, or whatever the cool kids are wearing this season.

You'll get a jacket superior to whatever kickback laden yoke a school pushes for a lot less than 80 quid.

The fancier the uniform, the more obviously someone in management is getting a kickback on the sale of it. Decent kit in much lower volumes is a fraction of the cost as anyone who has actually ever ordered branded gear will know. Regatta jackets are the default 'high end' branded jacket for a business and don't cost 80 quid even with embroidery in tiny volumes!



BOMs are full of people with no actual connection to the school but an obvious reason to want to be seen to be connected to it and "respectability" - local Councillors for instance - so suggesting that parents can overturn stuff via BOMs is ludacrious.

Princess Calla

2lazytogetup wrote: »

was wondering about uniforms today. if a school uniform gets torn and unwearable and the person doesnt have a second one, and shops are closed. what do they do. just wear any clothes they want.

Order online.

riffmongous

bubblypop wrote: »

Because the majority of jobs that you do when your 'grown up' also have dress codes.

I'd argue (for fun) that the school uniform policy is as much a hindrance as regards to this. First it means that most kids won't actually learn how to take care of themselves and dress well, as 5 days a week they have no requirement to. The amount of jobs nowadays that have a proscribed uniform is quite low so your doing a disservice to all those who will go on to work in a company with a dress code rather than uniform.

Second rather than enforcing some sort of discipline a uniform becomes another opportunity to rebel against discipline, or creates a distrust of authority for the sake of authority. Would anyone dare argue that Irish kids are any better behaved than those on the continent where there aren't uniform policies?

On a serious note the idea that a uniform saves you from bullying is naive, anyone who bullies you over your clothes will find another reason to bully you.

martinedwards

alroley wrote: »

Girls are allowed to wear trousers in the school I teach in, but pretty much none of them actually do.

the opposite here!

the last school I taught in had maybe 5% of the girls wore skirts. (and none of the boys!)

wassie

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

...What passes here for uniform policy is bordering on fascism.

...only if they are forced to wear blue shirts.

martinedwards

L1011 wrote: »

The fancier the uniform, the more obviously someone in management is getting a kickback on the sale of it.

evidence?

I taught across a range of schools with a wide range of uniform requirements and there was never any kickbacks. But then this is the incorruptible North!

What we DO see is the uniform used as a socio-economic tool.

Don't want to pay £80 for a jacket? Well then, you obviously don't come from the sort of family we want at this school. You'd be better suited at the £40 jacket school up the road......

Of course, that is NEVER said out loud!

Tombo2001

Lost me at 'bordering on fascism'......

shesty

2lazytogetup wrote: »

was wondering about uniforms today. if a school uniform gets torn and unwearable and the person doesnt have a second one, and shops are closed. what do they do. just wear any clothes they want.

Or go the local facebook/whatsapp/neighbours pages/groups and ask around for second hand to tide you over.

Normal One

Normal One wrote: »

A lot of rules originate from the catholofascist hierarchy.

Started in 16C England and common across the world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_uniforms_by_country

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

What is the reason for ridiculous rules here? Being a girl in Swedish school seems much nicer. I can only imagine what it would be like if I went to an Irish school.

The fear that if you let a child make decisions for themselves they'll start turning into free-thinking system-desrupting liberals and start questions that begin with 'why...? that adults can't answer.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The fear that if you let a child make decisions for themselves they'll start turning into free-thinking system-desrupting liberals and start questions that begin with 'why...? that adults can't answer.

Sure. Getting rid of uniforms will make them all philosophical geniuses.

Tombo2001

Deleted User wrote: »

Started in 16C England and common across the world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_uniforms_by_country

Facts not welcome in this type of discussion........

If we want to rant we will rant, and please dont ruin the party.

Tombo2001

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The fear that if you let a child make decisions for themselves they'll start turning into free-thinking system-desrupting liberals and start questions that begin with 'why...? that adults can't answer.

Or maybe the fear that it will show up wealth differences where some kids are showing up in worn out hand me downs and getting sneered at.

Some of us live in the real world.

And on your point of 'child making decisions for themselves' can you explain to me why - if children are thinking for themselves - all teenage boys wear pretty much identical North Face puffa jackets over a North Face or Nike Tracksuit, and almost all teenage girls are going around in black parka jackets with faux fur hoods and gym leggings......Its quite bizarre the degree of groupthink in the clothes that teenagers wear.

Tombo2001

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Facts not welcome in this type of discussion........

If we want to rant we will rant, and please dont ruin the party.

I too agree it was Catholic fascism then.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sure. Getting rid of uniforms will make them all philosophical geniuses.

Strawman argument of the day and its noteven 10am!!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Or maybe the fear that it will show up wealth differences where some kids are showing up in worn out hand me downs and getting sneered at.

Some of us live in the real world.

And on your point of 'child making decisions for themselves' can you explain to me why - if children are thinking for themselves - all teenage boys wear pretty much identical North Face puffa jackets over a North Face or Nike Tracksuit, and almost all teenage girls are going around in black parka jackets with faux fur hoods and gym leggings......Its quite bizarre the degree of groupthink in the clothes that teenagers wear.

Nope sorry - this is Strawman of the day.

Never said that the unifrm policy promoted group think. Never said it did anything. I was commenting on the perceptions of people regarding uniform policies.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Strawman argument of the day and its noteven 10am!!

I just rephrased what you said. It’s you who think that what children ask of their parents or teachers depends on the clothing they wear.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I just rephrased what you said. It’s you who think that what children ask of their parents or teachers depends on the clothing they wear.

Rephrased nto something completely different - I never commented on what children ask or think.

Hence, Strawman.

ArrBee

Princess Calla wrote: »

Order online.

It can be hard to find uniform items outside of the "start of school year" buying window.

Macy0161

As an actual parent of children in both secondary and national school, I far prefer that they've uniforms. Whatever the costs, it's still cheaper than trying to keep up with different labels for every day of the week. And in that regard, it's an important leveller for students who's parents may not have the money.

rightmove

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The fear that if you let a child make decisions for themselves they'll start turning into free-thinking system-desrupting liberals and start questions that begin with 'why...? that adults can't answer.

If they are free thinking they might turn into level headed conservatives.? Dont agree with your definition of free thinking. !