KBC want to leave the Irish Market

donaghs

Announced this morning. Is this basically because you can't get your loan collateral back if the borrower defaults on their payments?
e.g. irish mortgage defaults rarely lead to repossessions
(despite Irish people paying more for mortgages than the rest of Europe).

Or is this too simplistic?

Mike Murdock

donaghs wrote: »

Announced this morning. Is this basically because you can't get your loan collateral back if the borrower defaults on their payments?
e.g. irish mortagages (despite Irish people paying more for mortgages than the rest of Europe).

Or is this too simplistic?

That's a large part of the reason.

It's the main reason that Santander was scared out of opening in Ireland years ago. They thought they had very little recourse if mortgage defaults happened.

Eric Cartman

We really need to get onboard with evictions and repossessions as a nation, we’ve broken our property market completely by trying to ‘protect’ those without money and now every landlord and bank has no interest in staying

Mike Murdock

Eric Cartman wrote: »

We really need to get onboard with evictions and repossessions as a nation, we’ve broken our property market completely by trying to ‘protect’ those without money and now every landlord and bank has no interest in staying

The problem boils down to what I said on another thread, Eric. Everyone has "rights" and are "entitled" to things, without any need to be "responsible" for themselves or their decisions. And the State and courts are fine with it - Nanny-statism at its finest.

Since the fake boom back in the 2000's, everyone is now "entitled" to and has the "right" to own a house. Just seemingly no responsibility if things go tits up due to their own fault/mistakes.

Lofidelity

Eric Cartman wrote: »

We really need to get onboard with evictions and repossessions as a nation, we’ve broken our property market completely by trying to ‘protect’ those without money and now every landlord and bank has no interest in staying

Pat Kenny put that to Pascal Donoghue this morning, Pascal says it's a minority of cases, protecting people etc and basically nothing will change

Leg End Reject

Great, less competition for those who bother to pay their mortgage, I'll look forward to higher interest rates.

The problem is the "won't pay" rather than the "can't pay", but it was ludicrous to offer blanket protection. Although I do laugh at correspondence from the bank declaring in bold that my home is at risk if I don't pay my mortgage.

PhilOssophy

There is no reason whatsoever why a bank wouldn't up sticks and leave.
Lets be realistic here - the only way banks make money he is lending it out. We have let a situation develop where people can do as they please and Prime Time etc peddle the poor mouth brigade.
If you can't afford to repay on your home, you either downsize or go back to renting. The bank should be well able to get the money they lent you back. If you go bankrupt, so be it. Start again.
The current mess cannot continue.
Hard cases make for bad law.

christy c

Lofidelity wrote: »

Pat Kenny put that to Pascal Donoghue this morning, Pascal says it's a minority of cases, protecting people etc and basically nothing will change

And Pascal is from our "right wing" party.

The question I'd be asking is why would anyone expect KBC to stick around after the Strokestown fiasco? Someone who didn't pay a thing for a decade wasn't the main thing politicians were talking about, it was "thugs" who dared to evict the freeloaders.

donaghs

donaghs wrote: »

e.g. irish mortgage defaults rarely lead to repossessions

And yet some people on here claim that repossessions are happening constantly.

Which is it?

Arthur Daley

christy c wrote: »

And Pascal is from our "right wing" party.

Exactly, Tony Benn and Michael Foot couldn't nationalise a banking industry better than Ireland's 'right wing' have managed in the last 12 years.

namloc1980

Deleted User wrote: »

And yet some people on here claim that repossessions are happening constantly.

Which is it?

Repossessions are not happening constantly except in the case of abandoned property. But evictions are very few and far between. The courts just continuously adjourn cases that look like they might require a forced eviction. Banks also have little appetite to force an eviction after the Strokestown fiasco and all the politicians saying how awful it was.

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

Repossessions are not happening constantly except in the case of abandoned property. But evictions are very few and far between. The courts just continuously adjourn cases that look like they might require a forced eviction. Banks also have little appetite to force an eviction after the Strokestown fiasco and all the politicians saying how awful it was.

Oh, I'm well aware of that, I'm just calling out those who think the opposite is true.

jmayo

donaghs wrote: »

Announced this morning. Is this basically because you can't get your loan collateral back if the borrower defaults on their payments?
e.g. irish mortgage defaults rarely lead to repossessions
(despite Irish people paying more for mortgages than the rest of Europe).

Or is this too simplistic?

So this is the third foreign bank that I will have to close accounts with.
First it was NIB, and now Ulster and KBC. :mad:

And that fooking gimp donoghoe rabbits on about how we have competition because we have our good old two pillar banks. :mad:

Competition my fooking ar**.
Less competitors mean less competition.
Some fooking accountant he is.

KBC offered us better mortgage rates a number of years ago.

Now that option is gone for people.

I said this years ago in Politics or Accommodation & Property that someone would ultimately have to pay for those fooking leeches that refused to pay their mortgages and yet got to keep their properties.

All you got back from some was the bullshyte about "bankers" were wrong and the banks should take the hit.

Not one word about the customers of the banks.
The customers that pay their way.


Well this is just more of it.
All of us banking in this country, and most especially those with or seeking loans and mortgages, are going to be paying for it.

There really is need for a proper right wing party in this state.

Lofidelity wrote: »

Pat Kenny put that to Pascal Donoghue this morning, Pascal says it's a minority of cases, protecting people etc and basically nothing will change

That fooking eejit.

Donald Trump

They might also have looked at the market and concluded that bad times are ahead generally.

Repossession or no re-possession. They might just not want their eggs in a dysfunctional basket/market

Mad_maxx

Mike Murdock wrote: »

That's a large part of the reason.

It's the main reason that Santander was scared out of opening in Ireland years ago. They thought they had very little recourse if mortgage defaults happened.

not " thought "

knew they had very little recourse

Mad_maxx

Eric Cartman wrote: »

We really need to get onboard with evictions and repossessions as a nation, we’ve broken our property market completely by trying to ‘protect’ those without money and now every landlord and bank has no interest in staying

we are a nation of children

Mad_maxx

namloc1980 wrote: »

Repossessions are not happening constantly except in the case of abandoned property. But evictions are very few and far between. The courts just continuously adjourn cases that look like they might require a forced eviction. Banks also have little appetite to force an eviction after the Strokestown fiasco and all the politicians saying how awful it was.

as Keith Mills put it on Twitter recently in relation to statistical reality re_ covid deaths . ( vast majority of deaths involve those over eighty )

"as a people, we are obsessed with personal stories" , print one story about a twenty something succumbing to covid and we beg NPHET to shut the country down for another six months , print one story about a bunch of cowboys in Roscommon who never paid anyone for anything , never mind their bank loan and we demand that nobody be evicted

incredibly easy people to play by pulling at the heartstrings

PhilOssophy

Mad_maxx wrote: »

we are a nation of children

Whingy moany children.

suicide_circus

Idiotic country

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

as Keith Mills put it on Twitter recently in relation to statistical reality re_ covid deaths . ( vast majority of deaths involve those over eighty )

"as a people, we are obsessed with personal stories" , print one story about a twenty something succumbing to covid and we beg NPHET to shut the country down for another six months , print one story about a bunch of cowboys in Roscommon who never paid anyone for anything , never mind their bank loan and we demand that nobody be evicted

incredibly easy people to play by pulling at the heartstrings

Bonus points for being from a good GAA family.

As a GAA person the irrelevancy of that statement on matters before the courts drives me bonkers.

Incredibly immature mindset as a country. Rules should never be ambiguous and penalties should be consistent when it comes to matters like mortgage arrears.

We all pay for it in the end.

Rabo Gone, Halifax gone, Ulster gone, now KBC gone

There'll be some amount of champagne drank in the boardrooms of AIB and BOI tonight.

Larbre34

In a word, exceptionalism.

Irish people don't do consequences. Rules are for someone else. Waiting your turn, is for someone else. Paying the going rate, is for someone else. Being answerable, is for someone else. Paying tax?....someone else.

'I deserve a parachute, because I'm great'

Bubbaclaus

Hopefully this will cause a good hard look at the repossessions issue in this country. Not a single EU bank will touch Ireland because of it.

It's all well and good to keep people in homes they can't afford to pay for, and troublesome evictions taking years in the courts, but this is the end result.

Bubbaclaus

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Hopefully this will cause a good hard look at the repossessions issue in this country. Not a single EU bank will touch Ireland because of it.

It's all well and good to keep people in homes they can't afford to pay for, and troublesome evictions taking years in the courts, but this is the end result.

Which party would touch it?

Bubbaclaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Which party would touch it?

It would need cross party support. Basically it is never going to happen.

jmayo

Larbre34 wrote: »

In a word, exceptionalism.

Irish people don't do consequences. Rules are for someone else. Waiting your turn, is for someone else. Paying the going rate, is for someone else. Being answerable, is for someone else. Paying tax?....someone else.

'I deserve a parachute, because I'm great'

This country has some throwbacks to our history that it';s about time were well and truly dumped.

One is even evident today in another thread on this, about how Irish people were evicted wholesale from their homes once upon a time.
And we couldn't have evictions like that.
FFS time to grow up.
There is a difference between the British backed landlords turfing starving families onto the roadside from their hovel and a bank demanding 4x4 driving fookers give back the keys to their large house because they were refusing to pay for it for years.

And yes we do know people like that.

Anyone that sees the two scenarios as comparable are either fooking morons or have vest interest in screwing the rest of us.

Another more general problem is this mindset about fooking the system, getting one over the establishment, and us and them mentality.

Well the Brits fooking left this part of the island 100 years ago and the system is now us, not some mythical entity from across the water or somewhere else.

You screw the system, you screw the banks, the tax authorities and all you are doing is screwing anyone around you that pays for stuff and ultimately everyone even the ones that don't pay for anything.

The Student

Eric Cartman wrote: »

We really need to get onboard with evictions and repossessions as a nation, we’ve broken our property market completely by trying to ‘protect’ those without money and now every landlord and bank has no interest in staying

I agree with you but good luck with that.

Mike Murdock

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Hopefully this will cause a good hard look at the repossessions issue in this country. Not a single EU bank will touch Ireland because of it.

It's all well and good to keep people in homes they can't afford to pay for, and troublesome evictions taking years in the courts, but this is the end result.

Which is exactly what the cozy banking cartel here wants.

c.p.w.g.w

I have been looking at my savings, affordability of buying an upgrade...only I find out my Uncle who is living in a very up market area, hasn't paid his mortgage in 9 years, and they just had another child...

He seems to think he doesn't need to worry about the bank until the kids are all grown up...So I asked a friend who works for banks on mortgages that aren't being paid...and he said my uncle is right, no judge in this country will sign off on a repossession of that property...

Oh the uncle is driving 19BMW too, and Bragg's with deluded pride about not paying his mortgage...

My uncle isn't one of those people who needs to be protected, like a single parent who has lost their job and can't afford repayments

Gunmonkey

jmayo wrote: »

Anyone that sees the two scenarios as comparable are either fooking morons or have vest interest in screwing the rest of us.

Another more general problem is this mindset about fooking the system, getting one over the establishment, and us and them mentality.

Well the Brits fooking left this part of the island 100 years ago and the system is now us, not some mythical entity from across the water or somewhere else.

You screw the system, you screw the banks, the tax authorities and all you are doing is screwing anyone around you that pays for stuff and ultimately everyone even the ones that don't pay for anything.

Yup, "cute hoor-ism" up and down the nation. Pull one over the big man in de big house.....two fingers to de Guards or de Gov or any authority figure.......big "FECK OFF!" to anyone who tries to tell ya what to do.....dry ****e tries to ask for some of the €300000 ya borrowed from you ya tell him ta piss off he'll get it when ya feel like hurhurhur.

More I look at it this country is like a nation of 14 year olds scrumping apples and running from the farmer or dossing class and legging it from the teacher. Or the worst elements of "Working Class" yob culture giving you a carte blanche to act like a disrespecting prick to everyone who crosses your path and your some bastion of hard work and morals/"salt of the earth".

Honestly dont blame KBC or Ulster Bank, huge tracts of political capital spent defending the Strokestown thugs and every instance of an eviction like it and then pivoting around and whinging about excessive bank charges or high interest rates.

Jinglejangle69

Which parties want a ban on evictions again, I have heard it peddled a few times?

And that sanctimonious so and so Peter Mcverry also.

House for everyone and a ban on evictions.

Country is destroyed.

Kermit.de.frog

This means less competition, less choice, more cost for consumers.

All for people who won't pay or shouldn't be in the houses they are in.

The problem in Ireland at a fundamental level is unfairness in the sense work doesn't pay and being a sponge does.

We are all paying for the sponge.

Ubbquittious

I for one am glad to see them going. One less foreign megacorp around to milk us dry.

Don't feel too sorry for them not to be able to reposess houses. They magicked the money used to buy them into existence using their banking license and I'm fairly sure most people are paying away. This is move is probably just sabre rattling by the international banking cartel so the government will make it even easier to make money.

All these banks already making millions more than they used to because they've sent home a load of their staff and replaced them with machines they bought from NCR. They begrudgingly kept em on for a year or two in order to chivy customers towards the machines and then gave 'em the boot.

Eric Cartman

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

It would need cross party support. Basically it is never going to happen.

We have atleast 2 parties with seats in the dail and europe who have actively defended overholding of rent and nationalising the housing stock. Not a chance in hell you’ll ever get a unilateral message of ‘come on we actually need to do this’ from our elected reps

Ubbquittious

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I for one am glad to see them going. One less foreign megacorp around to milk us dry.

Don't feel too sorry for them not to be able to reposess houses. They magicked the money used to buy them into existence using their banking license and I'm fairly sure most people are paying away. This is move is probably just sabre rattling by the international banking cartel so the government will make it even easier to make money.

All these banks already making millions more than they used to because they've sent home a load of their staff and replaced them with machines they bought from NCR. They begrudgingly kept em on for a year or two in order to chivy customers towards the machines and then gave 'em the boot.

The domestic megacorps are not benign. They have mistreated their Customers with contempt for many decades.

Ubbquittious

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I for one am glad to see them going. One less foreign megacorp around to milk us dry.

Don't feel too sorry for them not to be able to reposess houses. They magicked the money used to buy them into existence using their banking license and I'm fairly sure most people are paying away. This is move is probably just sabre rattling by the international banking cartel so the government will make it even easier to make money.

All these banks already making millions more than they used to because they've sent home a load of their staff and replaced them with machines they bought from NCR. They begrudgingly kept em on for a year or two in order to chivy customers towards the machines and then gave 'em the boot.

Do not complain when the remaining three raise fees and interest rates.

This is what you want.

Mike Murdock

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I for one am glad to see them going. One less foreign megacorp around to milk us dry.

Don't feel too sorry for them not to be able to reposess houses. They magicked the money used to buy them into existence using their banking license and I'm fairly sure most people are paying away. This is move is probably just sabre rattling by the international banking cartel so the government will make it even easier to make money.

All these banks already making millions more than they used to because they've sent home a load of their staff and replaced them with machines they bought from NCR. They begrudgingly kept em on for a year or two in order to chivy customers towards the machines and then gave 'em the boot.

No foreign bank has ****ed Irish consumers over more than that Irish basketcase bank with a history of malfeasance, AIB.

Larbre34

The question must be asked, how in a single market and monetary union, the banking markets are defined by nation.

Any person or business in the Eurozone, or even the whole EU, should be able to approach any commercial bank for services and any bank should be obliged to provide those services, providing they are a person or business of satisfactory standing and satisfy diligence.

In many sectors, the last people that seem to be well served by the Single Market, is consumers.

The J Stands for Jay

Larbre34 wrote: »

The question must be asked, how in a single market and monetary union, the banking markets are defined by nation.

Any person or business in the Eurozone, or even the whole EU, should be able to approach any commercial bank for services and any bank should be obliged to provide those services, providing they are a person or business of satisfactory standing and satisfy diligence.

In many sectors, the last people that seem to be well served by the Single Market, is consumers.

Hello Irish person, I see you would like a mortgage. Ok, let's see what we can do for you. Ah, you have no credit rating because your country only set up a credit registry in recent years. Hmm, let's see what kind of security we can take over the loan. Ah, I see that it is difficult to enforce the legal charge over the property and it could result in political and media backlash. Anyway, let's see, the weighted asset rating of your local property market means we will have to hold more capital than for other markets. Based on all this, we cannot offer an interest rate that will be less than that offered by the existing companies in your local market.

As we are unlikely as much profit on the capital as is available on other markets, it is not profitable to pay the local regulatory levy that would allow us to sell into your local market.

Thank you for your interest in Big Euro Bank. Have a nice day.

I'm not worried about competition — online, international institutions are well able to fill the gap in retail banking, and to do so very efficiently.

I'm not worried about moral hazard and bank repossessions.

I'm worried about the kind of economic future where an international bank cuts its losses and runs, foreseeing a future risk against mortgage default.

We all seem to be running around griping about people who won't pay their mortgages, or capitalisation rules — do you not see, that isn't the point? KBC seems to have forecast a risk profile for the Irish mortgage market that is not sustainable.

It's the economy we should be worried about now.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm not worried about competition — online, international institutions are well able to fill the gap in retail banking, and to do so very efficiently.

Which of these efficient institutions provide mortgages?

Gatling

namloc1980 wrote: »

Repossessions are not happening constantly except in the case of abandoned property. But evictions are very few and far between. The courts just continuously adjourn cases that look like they might require a forced eviction. Banks also have little appetite to force an eviction after the Strokestown fiasco and all the politicians saying how awful it was.

Did I remember correctly it's takes something like 10+ years of legal actions to get a full repossession here ,


Seen a case where a tenant literally caused €16,000 + damage to a rental property and paid no rent for over a year yet the tenant only had to pay around 2k in compensation to the landlord.

Crazy property situation here

A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm not worried about competition — online, international institutions are well able to fill the gap in retail banking, and to do so very efficiently.

No they won’t. Not for mortgages or general loans. Yet we are in a single currency. In general cross currency retail loans are very rare because the mortgage payments fluctuate and the lenders might have to be paid back in less valuable currency or the borrower may face large payment problems, but the single currency should have meant that banks should have tried to come into the country, which is high waged. Some did, but why did they leave?

I'm not worried about moral hazard and bank repossessions.

I'm worried about the kind of economic future where an international bank cuts its losses and runs, foreseeing a future risk against mortgage default.

We all seem to be running around griping about people who won't pay their mortgages, or capitalisation rules — do you not see, that isn't the point? KBC seems to have forecast a risk profile for the Irish mortgage market that is not sustainable.

It's the economy we should be worried about now.

They aren’t making profits now. They only future risk they might be anticipating is the fact that they can’t repossess. This present day recession is likely to end this year.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They aren’t making profits now. They only future risk they might be anticipating is the fact that they can’t repossess. This present day recession is likely to end this year.

What are you talking about 'this present-day recession'? We aren't even in recession, yet, and you're making predictions about its ending?

The problem is that KBC's economic forecasts may have foreseen a shock to the Irish mortgage book. Any claim that some nonexistent recession will end this year is...

SeanW

KBC may possibly be leaving for economic reasons. But we have an underlying structural issue - no effective repossession process, lots of people not paying their mortgages, and I still remember that bizarre situation where a bunch of thugs invaded a KBC office with a coffin. It's entirely plausible that all of this lead the KBC to decide "Screw you guys, I'm going home"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTc3zcnIZOw

A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

What are you talking about 'this present-day recession'? We aren't even in recession, yet, and you're making predictions about its ending?

We are in lockdown which has produced a recession everywhere but Ireland, however that's a technical anomaly due to part of the economy over performing i.e. Pharma. However much of the economy is in recession. The idea that a future recession is looming when lockdown is over and the economy goes back to normal is ..strange?

The problem is that KBC's economic forecasts may have foreseen a shock to the Irish mortgage book. Any claim that some nonexistent recession will end this year is...

Thats not the problem. The problem is existing issues with their existing loan books. They are happily trading in other parts of Europe so unless you think the post lockdown recession you are predicting will apply to Ireland only, the place which has performed better than most, then your argument doesn't hold.

Geuze

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

What are you talking about 'this present-day recession'? We aren't even in recession, yet, and you're making predictions about its ending?

The problem is that KBC's economic forecasts may have foreseen a shock to the Irish mortgage book. Any claim that some nonexistent recession will end this year is...

There was a severe recession in 2020.

Q1 and Q2 saw huge falls in GDP and GNP, that is a recession.

There was a rebound in Q3 and Q4, so overall GDP and GNP actually rose for the whole year.

Of course, GDP and GNP are affected by MNC activity, so I will look at Modified Domestic Demand MDD instead:

2020 MDD down 5.4% - that is a recession.

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

We are in lockdown which has produced a recession everywhere but Ireland, however that's a technical anomaly due to part of the economy over performing i.e. Pharma. However much of the economy is in recession. The idea that a future recession is looming when lockdown is over and the economy goes back to normal is ..strange?

Correct.

2020 was the recession.

2021 is the rebound / recovery.

AndrewJRenko

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Exactly, Tony Benn and Michael Foot couldn't nationalise a banking industry better than Ireland's 'right wing' have managed in the last 12 years.

The banks were nationalised because they were about to go bust, as a result of the "light touch regulation" regime introduced by the right wing McDowell.

ED E

Consequences? Hah, you must be mental. This is Ireland.

Prime feckin example:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/council-takes-legal-advice-as-deadline-to-demolish-co-meath-house-passes-1.3532240

suicide_circus

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/kbc-exit-to-lead-to-higher-banking-costs-forconsumers-and-small-firms-40322390.html

If the deal goes through it will damage competition, increase the cost of debt and increase the cost of day to day banking.

But sure as long as people who dont pay their mortgage can take the piss and stay in the house arent we laughing?