Wallace and Daly

MFPM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915436#Comment_118915436

Excellent. Hope they win, be nice to see some payback for some of the media agenda...

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916146#Comment_118916146

Unbelievable stuff.

That is an odious comparison of two nutters to a statesman like John Hume.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916146#Comment_118916146

Perhaps the Ukrainian women being raped, or who were made to watch their kids being raped, by Russian invaders, should have been a bit more diplomatic?

Same as the citizens out on their bikes who were executed. The pensioners in nursing homes who were executed.

Maybe your man who got out of the car with his hands up but who was shot dead along with his wife maybe should have learned a little bit about the proper way to conduct peace talks?

MFPM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915789#Comment_118915789

You don't seem to be very familiar with normal democratic practices judging by that post, perhaps you're nearer to Putin than you'd care to admit.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916360#Comment_118916360

Methinks you are mixing up the democratic process with legal rights. The Courts aren't runs as a democracy where randomers get to vote. You are thinking of Dancing with the Stars.

Morto for ya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916359#Comment_118916359

While throwing out rethoric and condemning russian war crimes is a entirely valid

How do you preceive this war to play out and eventually end,without diplomacy and peace talks?

MFPM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916367#Comment_118916367

In a democracy people have the right to hold the media to account and challenge alleged wrong doing through the courts by them. If you decide to 'think' try do so with some more clarity than you're demonstrating thus far.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916438#Comment_118916438

Diplomacy and peace talks are all well and good when there is a dispute between two parties. If yourself and a neighbour have a disagreement over a boundary fence.

They are fu^k all use where the nighbour just wants to batter you for no good reason, and he is already standing over you with a baseball bat hitting you.

The Russians tried to take the whole country. The Ukrainians thankfully were able to hold them off from many parts of it. If you want to get an idea of how the Russians would have behaved had they taken control of the entire country, you can just look at how they behaved in the area the did get control.

Why do you think they would have behaved any differently had the Ukrainians lay down and let them walk in unopposed? That is what Daly was calling for.

Russia will not negotiate unless a hard fight brings them to the table.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916472#Comment_118916472

Nope. Again, morto for ya.

Democracies - of which there are various forms - broadly consist of people voting representatives into political positions. Those representatives pass laws in their respective legislature. There is a three-way separation of powers in the Irish context - Courts, Executive and Legislature. One is not allowed to directly impinge upon the other, except, again in the Irish context, certain pre-defined scenarios.

The legislature could, should they wish, pass laws eliminating the tort of defamation (It was amended by statute a few years back btw) or even making it impossible to sue RTE for example. That does not mean you no longer have a democracy.

C'mon, this is basic stuff. I'd advise you to start educating yourself.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916146#Comment_118916146

Get the **** out of here with that talk.

Equating John Hume with Clare Daly or Mick Wallace.

You may as well say Daffy Duck is Seamus Heaney!

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916438#Comment_118916438

Will there be some negotiated peace? Possibly.

However, what Clare Daly and Mick Wallace seem to think is that it should just let Russia win, not send arms and support to Ukraine, let Russia enslave 40 odd million people, and then go to the table to negotiate over the crumbs.

What is and should happen is that we should help and arm the Ukrainians, who defend their state against aggression, fight the Russian to a standstill and if possible push them back. When and if the Russian has enough, they will come to the table or maybe even leave altogethor.

As a Republican yourself, why do you defend the imperialist actions of Russia and Putin?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916663#Comment_118916663

Just an apologist for same.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916663#Comment_118916663

Wallace is a tax cheat who stole pension money from his workers..... I guess he didn't understand basic economics, perhaps like yourself?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916676#Comment_118916676

Now now now. Don't be mean. He did other things as well. It's unfair to only recall that one thing

Don't forget that he also defrauded the Revenue

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916676#Comment_118916676

Ah, ignore the point, try create your own. Nah.

If yourself and other have no knowledge of the fact that people pay other people to build all types of things including houses for them, I'd keep the head down ;)

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916701#Comment_118916701

Are you not aware that he deducted money from his employees wages - ostensibly to put it into their pension - but decided to keep it himself? The poor employees only later found out after they checked their pension status.

Presumably pink shirts aren't cheap!

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916720#Comment_118916720

BB will not condemn Wallace for this behaviour, because Wallace is 'anti-establishment'

Wallace is a man of 'de people', standing up for the downtrodden and poor and the tax cheats, and criminals. BB has a great time for all of them.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916720#Comment_118916720

I wouldn't trust him myself. I think he's a chancer. Came in here originally because it was claimed he wouldn't condemn Putin's invasion. He and Daly did and voted so.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916749#Comment_118916749

This didn't age well. Thats the trouble with making claims based on imagination.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916740#Comment_118916740

Why do you keep referencing other discussions on other threads?

So you accept people paid him to build for them. Getting there.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916720#Comment_118916720

cheaper than winery's and football teams id say

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118917108#Comment_118917108

Is that whinerys or winerys?

ednwireland

Any idea what they are suing rte for ?

https://www.thejournal.ie/clare-daly-mick-wallace-5736524-Apr2022/

Mullaghteelin

I can recall Socialist types protesting against sanctions against Saddam Hussein in the late 90s on the basis that they were allegedly starving to death millions of innocent Iraqi children. They also made it their mission to oppose the sanctions and eventual airstrikes against Milosevic in Serbia.

They now have the similar arguments against sanctioning Putin, even though life for ordinary Russians seems to be relatively unchanged so far.

This begs the question, when are sanctions ever acceptable to them?

Sanctions cause the least collateral damage. The alternatives involve either declaring war or sitting back and doing nothing, while letting aggressive tyrants do as they please.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118917856#Comment_118917856

Not quite.

Fine Gael in government would "lead the charge" for the dropping of United Nations sanctions against Iraq, the party's foreign affairs spokesman, Mr Jim O'Keeffe, has pledged.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/fine-gael-will-lead-campaign-to-drop-sanctions-against-iraq-1.301111

A SENIOR UN official said last night that about half a million children under five had died in Iraq since the imposition of UN sanctions 10 years ago.

Anupama Rao Singh, country director for the UN Children's Fund (UNICEF), said: ``In absolute terms we estimate that perhaps about half a million children under five years of age have died, who ordinarily would not have died had the decline in mortality that was prevalent over the '70s and the '80s continued through the '90s,'' she said.

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/sanctions-have-killed-500000-iraqi-children-26114461.html

Yurt2

@Brucie Bonus

Wallace and Daly offered a mealy mouthed condemnation because they were snookered. Direct quote: "we condemn it in the same way we condemn all military action"

Mealy mouthed "aren't all wars terrible though?" sh*te and then they spend the rest of their energy and speaking time peddling nonsense about NATO and opposing sanctions as a matter of principle (despite being full-on supporters for boycott divestment and sanctions for Israel). They don't even have the decency to call it a war in their statements, recycling the 'military action' language of the Kremlin.

You may be confused as to what you're looking at, but most people are not.

They're stooges in the heart of Europe's parliament. Call things by their name.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118918261#Comment_118918261

Just pointing out they voted to condemn Putin.

TBH, I don't think half of them give a ****.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118917982#Comment_118917982

The 500,000 thousand figure is false and has been debunked since.

Just a point of order.

Anyway, Wallace and Daly are all for boycotts and sanctions against Israel, yet oppose them for Russia. Odd don't you think?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916146#Comment_118916146

Would they not be more like Jim Allister?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916670#Comment_118916670

Wallace is just a Labour party wannabe.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118918441#Comment_118918441

Yeah. Whatcha gonna do? Am I right?

bertiebomber

the EU politicians get huge salaries & expenses on the gravy train and no one opinion has any traction there. People get up and speak to be seen by their voters and no one achieves anything, ever. Daly & Wallace got constant abuse in the Dail now they get less abuse and way better terms & conditions. They are no fools ! So say what you like about them they are laughing all the way to the old bank !

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118917756#Comment_118917756

Probably because RTE hurt their feelings. They're a pair of very sensitive souls who take exception to being exposed as a pair of buffoons.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916146#Comment_118916146

To paraphrase an old Stewart Lee routine -

What did the IRA want? A united Ireland. And it's possible to see how you get around a table and negotiate towards that.

What do Russia want? The complete subjugation of Ukraine, the end of Western hegemony and the post WW2 order in its totality. And it's harder to imagine getting around a table and negotiating towards that.

"Obviously you'll appreciate that we're unable to meet all off your demands".

So, what Russia wants is completely unreasonable. That's why talking it out is not going to work. They won't be interested in compromise until there is no other option.

Clare Daly said in the EUP that the West is prolonging the conflict in Ukraine by handing over weapons, but the subtext of that is outrageously close to being an out and out Russian sympathiser. She's saying that Russia should be allowed to roll over Ukraine and do as it wishes to the country. What she misses there is that Ukrainians want to fight for their country. If wars are bad because people get killed, then no-one would have ever fought one, and yet here we are.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118918521#Comment_118918521

No, not even close.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118918583#Comment_118918583

It reminds me of how I explained the difference between Irish actions against Britain in the North Vs Islamic action.

The IRA wanted an end to English interference in Ireland. Islamic militants want an end to England in England.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118918636#Comment_118918636

So what would you do?

Stanley 1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118918566#Comment_118918566

Wish a few lads would intercept him on the way to the bank and relieve him of his easy takings to pay back his long o/s debts.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118918668#Comment_118918668

Not be a Putin bot.

Miniegg

No one achieves anything in the EU? Hmm. Europe was for hundreds of years the most warmongering, militaristic, antagonistic, and oppressive continents in the world.

You think Republicans and Unionists have bad blood in the north? Imagine what is there between Germany, France, Britain, Sweden, Denmark etc etc -almost all European nations have extremely violent history with one another. Europe was the launch pad of two world wars, whose interfighting nations caused millions of victims, eclipsing all wars which came before. It was a continent in which the most extensive genocide in history took place, and though it was enlightened in some ways - it's history of brutality overshadows it all.

The uniting of Europe, and the EU, is one of the single greatest achievements in the history of mankind. How people whose ancestors murdered, tortured, raped and stole from one another, work together peacefully in the common interest is outstanding, and has made Europe the largest trading block in the world.

It's civilized beuracracy and general mundaneness of course entices people to talk of "gravy trains" and "nothing ever getting done", but compared to the brutality of war, which we are witnessing in the Ukraine, it is a thing of serene beauty.

And I'm sure Daly and Wallace are laughing all the way to the bank, I just hope that bank accepts rubles.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919000#Comment_118919000

Good man.

MFPM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916575#Comment_118916575

Thanks for the mini though unnecessary lecture. Glad to see amidst the waffle you didn't counter a point I made!

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919037#Comment_118919037

and though it was enlightened in some ways - it's history of brutality overshadows it all.

Oh would you ever give over with anti Western the sackcloth and ashes towards Europe bullshíte. "Though it was enlightened in some ways" 🙄 Europe literally gave the world the Enlightenment and the Classical world, the Renaissance(not just one) the Industrial revolution, modern democracy, even the idea and practice of a constitution. An absolutely massive proportion of the laws and rights the world takes for granted came about because of Europe and Europeans going right back to the classical world. A huge chunk of the everyday things you interact with and take for granted, from the toliet you sit on to the clothes you wear, the media you consume, the window you look out of, the car you drive and yes even the ability to vote in or against Wallace and Gromit is European in origin. Invented in China printing had little enough impact beyond religious texts, passed through the Muslim world where it had even less, made it to Europe, was improved and within the span of a lifetime completely revolutionised the spread and growth of information. The very idea of indexing on this site owes its debt to that. And a large part of that was down to the internal competition present in Europe, something absent in the empires of China and Islam(or Russia for that matter).

And yes that internal competition drove conflict as well as innovation. It's what it tends to do. Lack of internal competition causes stagnation as it tends to do. A 12th century peasant in the Caliphate or China if brought to the 19th century in those places would have observed remarkably few differences, a 12th century peasant in Germany or France or Italy brought to the 19th century would think he'd fallen into an alien world. And he'd have a lot more rights to wander about in it and be less "oppressed" while doing so. When we think of slavery most, because of European and European colony bias, think of the European Atlantic slave trade in Africans. And yes it was a horror, but it lasted for a couple of centuries and it was Europeans who outlawed it, while slavery in the rest of the world had been going on for far longer and happily continued long after too. The Islamic world was riven with it and backed by their religion, China only outlawed it in the early 20th century, ditto for much of Africa.

And if you don't think the rest of the world didn't have an extremely violent history of conflict and conquest I've some magic beans to sell you. There are precious few cultures on this planet whose soil is not soaked in the blood of previous generations.

Miniegg

I'm well aware about the innovations and benefits Europe have brought to mankind, and am a proud European. Some of the best political thinkers, engineers, inventors and strategic minds have come out of Europe.

Can other countries be bad? Yes, probably. But factually, Europeans can count amongst them the largest proportion of warmongers, tyrants, genocidist, and thieves in all of history, and this can't be whitewashed.

Many of these had little trouble getting their populations to fight in thousands of wars causing millions of deaths, enslave millions, and in our darkest hour, industrialise murder. And yes we invented toilets.

The EU has allowed us to focus on the good things Europe can do (as clearly referenced by you) and not repeat the dark and bloody acts that is so evidently in our nature, whether you admit it or not.

It scares me that these nationalist politicians like le pen, Brexiteers etc are coming more to the fore, as that brings out the very worst of Europe. Europe's default position isn't one of peace and harmony, and the current status quo should never be taken for granted. The stuff going on in Ukraine should waken us up to that.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919460#Comment_118919460

Well I did my best, but if you still can't understand it, that's on you

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919647#Comment_118919647

Can other countries be bad? Yes, probably.

Probably? I'm surprised you even went that far.

But factually, Europeans can count amongst them the largest proportion of warmongers, tyrants, genocidist, and thieves in all of history, and this can't be whitewashed.

"Factually" as far as - and I fúcking hate to go here - some sections of the "liberal" mind are willing to travel, whether because of the ignorance of their politic, or the politic of their ignorance. The history of South East Asia is one of tyrants and butchers fighting over resources, of mini empires waxing and waning leaving misery in its wake. Just because you can't name the actors, doesn't mean the stage wasn't set and the script wasn't the same. Hell today in Thailand you can go to gaol for criticism of their royals and have to crawl around on the floor beneath the current throne holder as he parades around in his shiny shorts and bellytop with his coterie of whores.

Japan even though an island was a back and forth of conflict and misery between different warlords, where lopping off peasants heads was a national sport at times. And if you want to get closer to today, look at how the Japanese operated in their imperial push in the 1930's and 40's as far as genocide, mass rape, murder and human experimentation that even had the German nazis thought was a bit "ah here lads". Indeed it turned out that a German merchant and card carrying nazi party member, one Herr Rabe was one of the few to try and stop the Rape of Nankang and protect the local Chinese from the barbarous hordes of Japanese. It's estimated he saved hundreds of thousands of Chinese men women and children. Funny how things can go*.

The Chinese empire had her fair share of this too in her tooing and froing of her borders and within them too. The Mongols had the largest land empire in human history and they didn't get that by sending flowers and chocolates. The Khans pillaged and raped so many that even today a notable proportion of Asian men carry their genes on their Y chromosome. Though as usual it's not that simple and they also brought stability and law, even if it was on mountains of bodies.

The Muslim caliphate kicked off hard too, but also brought culture and innovation until it stopped and went backwards and inwards while still fighting within and without. India was a melee of back and forth conflict and despots. One reason it was easy enough for European powers to take over by exploiting that.

The Mesoamericans were at near constant war and some had the lovely idea of ripping the still beating hearts of thousands of their enemies and throwing them off temples to their sky fairies, or bludgeoning doped up little kids to death on top of mountains as sacrifices to same. Though they were only brilliant at inventing accurate calenders. If we point our nose at Africa we'd be here all bloody day, and I do mean bloody.

The EU has allowed us to focus on the good things Europe can do (as clearly referenced by you) and not repeat the dark and bloody acts that is so evidently in our nature, whether you admit it or not.

In "our nature" eh? Africa has been for much of human history a primitive and often bloody backwater with a few flourishes to her north and a few in the south. Is that in their "nature" too? I seriously doubt you'd consider that thought for even a second and if you did a strong course of self flagellation would be in play. But apparently it's OK to think same of Europeans, let's face it White people.

This is just another example of the post WW2, post 60's "left" counterculture moral and cultural equivalence and xenophilia, but only when and where it suits. And yet another European innovation as it happens.

*when he got home to Germany, he got short shrift from the Party, after the war he was denounced as a nazi and forgotten. The Chinese didn't forget though and after they heard what had befallen him their ambassador sought him out and brought food for him and his family who were starving. Chinese people raised money to support him and his family. After he died he was buried in Germany, but in the 90's his tombstone was brought to China and erected as a memorial to a man who against the odds saved hundreds of thousands of her people.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919999#Comment_118919999

I’d rather you didn’t try to put my into some “woke box”, or say I am “anti white”, or whatever internet bull you are trying conjure up. I’m well aware of Japanese imperialism ,atrocities in Nanking, aware of the Mongol empire and Pax Mongolica (whose cost was approx. 10% of the world’s population at the time), how there are far less rights in other parts of the world etc. etc.. 

It’s just rather easy to extoll the virtues of European history whilst lazily passing off the dark side as being “only slavery for a few centuries”, or “everyone else is bad too”.

Other continents did not launch two world wars, other continents did not industrialize the genocide of approx. 20 million people, other continents did not create and industrialize the enslavement of tens of millions of people, other continents did not forcefully colonize landmasses totalling 80% of the world. You can say if they could have they would have, but Europeans did it, and it all culminated in WW2 – which was in every way humanity’s darkest hour – death and destruction on such an unimaginable scale. We did this, and need to own it, prevent it happening again, and be instigators of change and peaceful civilization instead of pointing the finger at other people and saying sure you are as bad.

As a European I am very happy with the luxuries and rights I live with today, but I don’t deny for one second that suffering, pillaging, rape, war and murder helped to make it possible. Your position of “I am happy with my luxuries and I don’t really care how I got it” is exactly what will perpetuate it happening again.

As an Irishman ( I assume you are Irish) you should see first-hand the destruction of lives and culture that British imperialism wrought on this country, so should recognize both sides of the argument.

First and foremost, the EU was created as an instrument of peace, so that the atrocities of the past cannot be repeated. As I said before, the fact that countries whose people murdered one another for hundreds of years can both set aside AND respect one another’s differences, and work toward a common good is astounding, and goes against our history. For 60 odd years it has succeeded, and has done so much for the people of Europe, and the world. I hope this is echoed the world over in all zones which have endured conflict, and the world can move on.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118920136#Comment_118920136

Unfortunately you don't need to go back in time to witness the behaviour of people when they can can get away with something. There are invaders in Ukraine raping and murdering their way with abandon. It's very simplistic to look back in history and think "yeah but sure if X wasn't fighting then there would have just been peace everywhere". People would have needed to protect themselves and their populations too.

European powers had the upper hand in recent centuries so they colonised. Other powers also colonised and set up their own empires bu that was either further back in history, or else they were eventually overpowered. If European powers had not had the upper hand, it is not that there would have been no colonisation - more that they would have instead been colonised.

Fun fact - the year Columbus "discovered America" is coincidentally considered the last year of the reconquista.

China is currently colonising parts of Africa by stealth. Alongside the "moral" reasons against it, from a geopolitical point of view, there is a massive danger to other countries by them gaining such control and influence over the region.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118920575#Comment_118920575

I absolutely know that - that is why institutions such as the EU are all the more important. As I said in a previous post, the mundane, boring number crunching bureaucracy of it all is a fantastic achievement. It's not sexy or exciting, but it has proven to be the best preventative measure from mass war, death and corruption on this continent. Countries who may give not share the EU's values will clamor to join in the face of the Russian murderous onslaught, which as history shows us, is often the alternative. It's such a pity Wallace and Daly are making a mockery of it in siding with Russia.

padd b1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118917856#Comment_118917856

Jews are fair game.