Thoughts about HAP

dublinman1013

Hello,

1. I own an 1 bed apartment in Dublin city center - pretty tough to rent out in current climate
2. The estate agent has found tenants for me. A couple on HAP
3. The HAP payment allows for 93% of the rent and the tenant will pay the remaining 7% directly
4.. I am wondering what the benefits/cons of this are as I am clueless so I can make a decision. From my research I found the following:

Pros
- The couple are two professionals / seem legit / seems like they have references
- All payments are made electronically and payment will be transferred regardless of a change in tenant income.
- There is a 99% payment rate for HAP
- Tax relief on mortgage interest (I think I get this anyway at 100% even without HAP)

Cons
- Not too sure about the 7% cash bit. If the tenant loses their job am I at risk of losing this?
- I have to show my tax compliance to HAP (TBH I have no issues here as I am legit with tax - it's just headache of paperwork)
- Apartment may be checked for safety standards (again not too worried about this as apartment is up to scratch)
- Not too sure about increasing rent each year by 4% as it's in rent control zone
- Rent is paid on 3rd week of every month (Rather than in lieu)

Is there anything else I need to be aware of?

Eirehead96

I’d say let them have it. Hap is guaranteed money every month. We are a young couple seeking a new house to rent at the moment and it’s damn near impossible at the minute. And we are cash/ bank transfer paying tenants for the last 6 years. Most landlords are looking up to 3 months rent as a deposit, the hap is guaranteed money in the landlords account every single month. Hell I wish we qualified for hap the way things are going. Would make life a hell of a lot easier and almost double our budget.

dublinman1013

Cheers. I am just wondering if there are any other risks I am overlooking or need to be cautious about?

Caranica

Missing one big thing. The Council will stop paying if the tenant does. You'll be down 100% not 7%.

dublinman1013

Caranica wrote: »

Missing one big thing. The Council will stop paying if the tenant does. You'll be down 100% not 7%.

Thanks. This is a risk for any tenant though so I left it off but duly noted.

mgn

One think to remember is that if the tenant stops paying their share to the council, then the HAP crowd stops paying you.

Mrs OBumble

dublinman1013 wrote: »

- The couple are two professionals / seem legit / seems like they have references

Since when did a professional couple earn so little that they qualify for HAP?

mgn

Where did you get the information regards the 99% payment rate for HAP?

dublinman1013

mgn wrote: »

One think to remember is that if the tenant stops paying their share to the council, then the HAP crowd stops paying you.

Duly noted. I read this too.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Since when did a professional couple earn so little that they qualify for HAP?

I actually don't know this yet but will find out tomorrow and ensure I get proper reference checks / proof of income etc.

dublinman1013

mgn wrote: »

Where did you get the information regards the 99% payment rate for HAP?

I am a new user so can't post URLs but the HAP website

hap [dot] ie [forward slash] landlords[forward slash] whyhap [forward slash]

Creamy Goodness

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Since when did a professional couple earn so little that they qualify for HAP?

Max income
for HAP in authorities such as Dublin/Cork City, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow is €35,000 for a single person and €42,000 for a family with children.

I feel like quite a lot of professional couples can fall into that bracket.

dublinman1013

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Max income
for HAP in authorities such as Cork City, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow is €35,000 for a single person and €42,000 for a family with children.

I feel like quite a lot of professional couples can fall into that bracket.

Thanks. Let's keep on topic. Just looking for anything I may have missed re: risks associated with HAP

Creamy Goodness

dublinman1013 wrote: »

Thanks. Let's keep on topic. Just looking for anything I may have missed re: risks associated with HAP

No problems sorry didn’t mean to derail just hate sweeping comments that insinuate that professional people can’t avail of supports.

Dressoutlet

I'm a hap tennant. My L/L wasn't going to rent to me but she had students before who wrecked the place and wanted a family. I will be here 4 years this summer. I love this house. I had her permission to redecorate etc so I have all up to date decor in all rooms. Re tiled the kitchen, relandscaped the garden etc. I haven't seen my L/L since the day I moved in.(she left me a bottle of wine too)
Her dad has come up to fix a few minor problems (toilet flush, blocked drain pipe) I would consider my neighbourhood posh and I'm the only renter. My OH works nights and I mind our 4 children. We receive WFP as even working 40 hours he earns about 24k a year. I'm not on Loan parents and have him living with me, we are registered Co habitating and have been since the beginning. I'm in 250e credit with my rent. This would cover a month if anything happened our finances and we couldn't pay our share to the council, the rent would still be paid at least.
Not all HAP tenants are the stereotypical Howyas you hear about. I'm most certainly not, we don't have parties except for kids birthday parties. Yes it can be noisy in the day time but come 7pm there's no sound from my house till 8am the next day.
Trust your gut with your tenants. Not everyone on HAP is bad. Good luck xx

mgn

dublinman1013 wrote: »

I am a new user so can't post URLs but the HAP website

hap [dot] ie [forward slash] landlords[forward slash] whyhap [forward slash]

All I'm going to say on that is, don't believe everything you read on that HAP site

ED E

dublinman1013 wrote: »

Cons
- Apartment may be checked for safety standards (again not too worried about this as apartment is up to scratch)

Are you up to HAPs standards? HAP requires more than a regular private tenancy. There are some decent posts on boards about them demanding changes to the premises that would be 100% legal to privately rent.

dublinman1013

Dressoutlet wrote: »

Trust your gut with your tenants. Not everyone on HAP is bad. Good luck xx

Thanks for your input. I am sure they are lovely people but I am not questioning anyone's character or situation. I am just wondering about the risks of the actual system for me as a landlord. I have rented out to non HAP people before and they have turned out to be hassle - there are nice people / pricks in all walk of life.

HAP have a cap on how much they will pay so even if you increase rent they don’t increase their cap.

Also, they pay on the last Wednesday of every month so it’s the 4th or 5th week.

Just because you think your apartment is up to scratch doesn’t necessarily means it’s up to the council’s requirements. I’d check that list on their website then check old threads here for what was asked of landlords.

dublinman1013

ED E wrote: »

Are you up to HAPs standards? HAP requires more than a regular private tenancy. There are some decent posts on boards about them demanding changes to the premises that would be 100% legal to privately rent.

Yeah I read those. I am pretty sure I fully compliant.

ED E

Similar topic asked in 2018:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?t=2057839825

emeldc wrote: »

The list goes on. Mind you, that was a year ago and they haven't followed up on it since. But when they do it wont be cheap. I'm happy enough with the tenant but I'll be avoiding HAP like the plague next time around.

Eirehead96

If they’re hap allowance is 93% , I wouldn’t worry if they fail to pay there 7% to the council each month. That’s only €140 on a €2000 o/m house . That’s not the issue . It’s if they wreck the property beyond your yearly rental income just say €40k per year. It’s highly unlikely that’s going to happen. The hap scheme is there to help the vulnerable in society. I say do your part and give back. Give them the property.

ED E

Eirehead96 wrote: »

If they’re hap allowance is 93% , I wouldn’t worry if they fail to pay there 7% to the council each month. That’s only €140 on a €2000 o/m house . That’s not the issue . It’s if they wreck the property beyond your yearly rental income just say €40k per year. It’s highly unlikely that’s going to happen. The hap scheme is there to help the vulnerable in society. I say do your part and give back. Give them the property.

Did you read any of the thread? If they dont pay the council wont pay. 100% or 0%.

Faze11

We have been renting to HAP tenants for over 2 and a half year now. One lost their job because of the pandemic but they were able to maintain payments due to the fact that they were on HAP. We are happy out and couldn't ask for better tenants. Camt see any downside TBH bar dwelling not being up to council standard upon inspection and having to spend money. That said you mentioned all was good in that regard so I would plough ahead.

jood22

Our tenants lost their jobs due to COVID and moved to HAP.
An inspector came into the house, and we had to pay €400 for minor works to bring house ‘up to code’’. Re payment of rent it’s been fantastic, no worrying whether or not rent will be paid. I would have no hesitation in recommending HAP.

Re tenants not paying their share and therefore council not paying I believe that has been parked for now to ensure HAP doesn’t get a bad name and that the tenants, if they don’t pay their bit, will find it difficult to apply for HAP in a new tenancy.

Optimalprimerib

Look into what happens if you are unlucky and get bad tenants, whose responsibility is it to evict them? In my area, there are a few cases of hap tenants that cause issues for the community, illegal dumping, fights etc. And from my understanding the responsibility still lies with the landlord to deal with this.

The hap just stop payments.

Optimalprimerib

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

Look into what happens if you are unlucky and get bad tenants, whose responsibility is it to evict them? In my area, there are a few cases of hap tenants that cause issues for the community, illegal dumping, fights etc. And from my understanding the responsibility still lies with the landlord to deal with this.

The hap just stop payments.

The LA are neither tenant nor Landlord, they just pay on the tenants behalf. It is up to the LL to evict.

Hontou

The good thing about HAP is the guaranteed rent. Yes the tenants could mess that up by not paying their share to the council but they are unlikely to do that as it could cause problems for them getting HAP in future.

What I personally have noticed with HAP tenants more than private tenants is that they request more repairs. I have been called to unblock a shower drain filled with their own hairs, repair and replace a washing machine that was full of dog hairs (the blanket should have been cleaned of hairs before going into the machine,) and empty the water from a dryer. I have also been called when there is a general powercut more than once. Now, this could happen with non HAP tenants too but in my experience of nearly 20 years renting I have only experienced this with RAS / HAP tenants. I have found private tenants do their own minor repairs more. You should be ok with a one bed apartment though - less to repair.

If the HAP tenants are unemployed, they will be in the property more which may add to wear and tear.

The other issue I have found with HAP is that because a lot of landlords don't accept HAP even though legislation states they should, it is hard for the tenants to move out if you want your property back. The rules allow them to stay on even if you get a determination order from the RTB. If they can't move, they won't. I don't blame the tenants for this, I blame the process of eviction.

So, if you know you will not want your apartment back within 6 years, go for HAP. But if you may want it back or need to sell, be aware of the difficult eviction process in Ireland. Also, don't let the rent go below market rate, we did this to be nice, but it added to the reasons the tenants won't move.

I apologise to any HAP tenants that are offended by this as I hope these cases are not the norm, but this is genuinely my experience and remember I am the landlord that accepted HAP tenants and tenants with pets when others would not.

Mad_maxx

Hontou wrote: »

The good thing about HAP is the guaranteed rent. Yes the tenants could mess that up by not paying their share to the council but they are unlikely to do that as it could cause problems for them getting HAP in future.

What I personally have noticed with HAP tenants more than private tenants is that they request more repairs. I have been called to unblock a shower drain filled with their own hairs, repair and replace a washing machine that was full of dog hairs (the blanket should have been cleaned of hairs before going into the machine,) and empty the water from a dryer. I have also been called when there is a general powercut more than once. Now, this could happen with non HAP tenants too but in my experience of nearly 20 years renting I have only experienced this with RAS / HAP tenants. I have found private tenants do their own minor repairs more. You should be ok with a one bed apartment though - less to repair.

If the HAP tenants are unemployed, they will be in the property more which may add to wear and tear.

The other issue I have found with HAP is that because a lot of landlords don't accept HAP even though legislation states they should, it is hard for the tenants to move out if you want your property back. The rules allow them to stay on even if you get a determination order from the RTB. If they can't move, they won't. I don't blame the tenants for this, I blame the process of eviction.

So, if you know you will not want your apartment back within 6 years, go for HAP. But if you may want it back or need to sell, be aware of the difficult eviction process in Ireland. Also, don't let the rent go below market rate, we did this to be nice, but it added to the reasons the tenants won't move.

I apologise to any HAP tenants that are offended by this as I hope these cases are not the norm, but this is genuinely my experience and remember I am the landlord that accepted HAP tenants and tenants with pets when others would not.

HAP is not guaranteed rent

ted1

You can’t refuse because they are in HAP.
I’m have had no problem renting to people with HAP

Check the references, as two professionals should be over the threshold.

the_syco

ted1 wrote: »

You can’t refuse because they are in HAP.

That is correct. You either pick another reason for not renting to them, or give no reason. The latter being the best option.

mgn

Mad_maxx wrote: »

HAP is not guaranteed rent

Why do you think the changed from the old RAS scheme to HAP,

At least with the RAS scheme you were guaranteed you money every month regardless of what happened.

The dident change if for the landlords benefit, that's for sure.

The Student

mgn wrote: »

Why do you think the changed from the old RAS scheme to HAP,

At least with the RAS scheme you were guaranteed you money every month regardless of what happened.

The dident change if for the landlords benefit, that's for sure.

Exactly, I know for a fact RAS was stopped to new applications because of rent arrears that the council could not collect and were liable to the landlord.

mgn

The Student wrote: »

Exactly, I know for a fact RAS was stopped to new applications because of rent arrears that the council could not collect and were liable to the landlord.

Of course it was, let the landlord take the hit if the don't pay, its all a one way system now in favour of the tenant.

Not surprised a lot of landlords don't want to take HAP tenants anymore, no benefits for them only hassle.