Covid vaccine , age before special interest groups good or bad? *Mod Note In OP*

Plumbthedepths

So the government after getting advice from Nphet and Niac probably a few others I missed have decided after the over 70's and vulnerable are vaccinated going to base the rest of the role out on age.
Personally to speed up the process I think this is a good thing it will stop the jockeying for position that special interest groups are engaged in.

Baggly wrote: »

Mod

There is more to this discussion than teachers and teachers unions. At least there had better be, because i dont intend to see two threads on the topic of COVID and schools.

If you want to discuss COVID and schools, go to the dedicated thread for it.

If you want to discuss the rest of this topic, do it here.

Stark

Good thing overall imo. Indicates that increased supply is coming and they're focused on reducing administrative burden on the delivery side to get as many out as quickly as possible (rather than overall throughput being delayed while trying to work out priorities).

Multipass

I think it makes sense. Just heard someone from a transport union on the radio say their members will refuse to go above 50% capacity until they’re vaccinated. Pretty despicable to try to use leverage like that.

In complete agreement with Government policy for once. Listening to talk radio, litany of sob stories "my husband of 53 should get the vaccine now because he is heavyset and might have diabetes" etc. Virtually pleading on air, not a very dignified platform. Going strictly by age once the under 70s & critically immuno suppressed cohorts are vaccinated, cutting out too much pulling and dragging in the queue which could stall the process further. Block groups getting their turn, without individuals lost in the shuffle. Progress.

is_that_so

Multipass wrote: »

I think it makes sense. Just heard someone from a transport union on the radio say their members will refuse to go above 50% capacity until they’re vaccinated. Pretty despicable to try to use leverage like that.

It's a bit of an empty threat as we won't be looking at that for months, perhaps not till the end of summer.

BrianD3

It will probably benefit me - mid 40s, not related to anyone in the HSE and don't have any other "special" status. Am an unpaid carer who gave up his job which means I am invisible and would have just been in cohort 14 based on age. I'd say I'm now ahead of a few hundred thousand people who I would otherwise have been behind. That's assuming that there isn't some more skullduggery or some creative interpretation of what constitutes "age" :rolleyes:

seamus

Yeah it seems to have cut the legs out from underneath all of those unions and other whingebags who've been claiming that they deserve to be higher up the chain.

The official change of tack now seems to be; Protect the most vulnerable == minimise the impact on hospitals.

The previous plan sought to target groups based on a number of factors; vulnerability, level of exposure, and disruption to the economy.

We saw it was starting to get messy though. This simpler breakdown should let us get the thing into arms faster. If the unions had their way they'd be arguing over priorities until Christmas and holding up the whole show.

YellowLead

It makes perfect sense. It will ensure a much swifter roll out and remove a LOT of additional admin when it comes to processing. But also it is more fair because it removes that difficult decision that government would have to make otherwise over which cohorts to prioritise over others which would only end up in a mess of fighting.
The only people who will complain are really are groups like teachers and only because they were looking forward to meeting up with other vaccinated teacher friends before everyone else.

KrustyUCC

Probably a good thing overall even if it drops me down the list

It does stop pleading to be bumped up the list

It is easier to administer

It probably will be quicker

Fairer is a harder argument

Funny thing is that this came about as the HSE couldn't identify those in cohort 4 which is shambolic

The fact its a NIAC decision the government would have been killed if they went against health advice

Responder XY

Good thing for sure. Age is clearly the biggest factor in how likely Covid is to impact a person severely. No justification for vaccinating a young guard or teacher when an older person remains vulnerable. 

Unions are pathetic. Heard reps from the teachers and garda unions on Newstalk this morning and was disgusted by them. Presenters rightly went through them. Hopefully they realise how out of touch they are with reality and lay off. But they'll probably continue to make a show of themselves unfortunately and create discord and lack of confidence in the process for no good reason.

r93kaey5p2izun

I support it as I believe direct health risk from Covid should be the main concern in vaccine delivery, and although workplace exposure is a factor, the overall improvement to roll out times is worth the change. I'm just surprised this has been accepted so easily by parents though, as continued disruption to school beyond what was in the previous plan is now inevitable. I expected a lot more arguments about the importance of classroom attendance to children's health. After the many overwrought presentations of drastic permanent damage to children due to missing school attendance, I'm taken aback at how easily that has been forgotten.

YellowLead

Viviana Nutritious Stretcher wrote: »

I support it as I believe direct health risk from Covid should be the main concern in vaccine delivery, and although workplace exposure is a factor, the overall improvement to roll out times is worth the change. I'm just surprised this has been accepted so easily by parents though, as continued disruption to school beyond what was in the previous plan is now inevitable. I expected a lot more arguments about the importance of classroom attendance to children's health. After the many overwrought presentations of drastic permanent damage to children due to missing school attendance, I'm taken aback at how easily that has been forgotten.

What has this got to do with vaccine roll out?

r93kaey5p2izun

YellowLead wrote: »

What has this got to do with vaccine roll out?

If education staff are not vaccinated as quickly as was planned, then classes will continue to close, year groups will continue to be sent home, and SET staff will continue to be redeployed to cover shortages . Children will continue to miss classroom education, students with AEN will continue to lose out most, into another school year.

Responder XY

Viviana Nutritious Stretcher wrote: »

If education staff are not vaccinated as quickly as was planned, then classes will continue to close, year groups will continue to be sent home, and SET staff will continue to be redeployed to cover shortages . Children will continue to miss classroom education, students with AEN will continue to lose out most, into another school year.

No they won't. Schools will be closed in a few weeks for the Summer anyway. Teachers wouldn't have been fully vaccinated by then anyway. Under the new plan they'll be vaccinated by the time school's reopen in September anyway

The change makes no difference to the operation of schools and due to the risk factor from covid being age related it was always the wrong thing to be doing.

JMNolan

Ya, for once I think this makes sense. If the number of vaccinations coming into the country does ramp up dramatically then we really need to simplify the process of getting jabs in arms and age is a simple manner of doing it. All you need then is to book your appointment online (or not, perhaps it'll be so simple that you just turn up) and rock up with proof of age then?

duffman13

Viviana Nutritious Stretcher wrote: »

If education staff are not vaccinated as quickly as was planned, then classes will continue to close, year groups will continue to be sent home, and SET staff will continue to be redeployed to cover shortages . Children will continue to miss classroom education, students with AEN will continue to lose out most, into another school year.

There is 6 - 8 weeks left in secondary school year, a large proportion of teachers will still get their first dose by end of June anyway and given the arrival of J&J may only need one dose.

Education staff who are vulnerable based on age will likely get there vaccine quicker now. This is all good news for those older teachers. Yes there will be some disruption with cases etc but given the numbers of vaccines coming on stream this process will speed things up massively as there is no great process in identifying special interest groups.

r93kaey5p2izun

Responder XY wrote: »

No they won't. Schools will be closed in a few weeks for the Summer anyway. Teachers wouldn't have been fully vaccinated by then anyway. Under the new plan they'll be vaccinated by the time school's reopen in September anyway

The change makes no difference to the operation of schools and due to the risk factor from covid being age related it was always the wrong thing to be doing.

I don't believe the majority of education staff will be vaccinated by the new school year. I hope they are and if so then it's not an issue. I think it's optimistic in the extreme to believe that though. I am not disputing anything about risk factor - read my post where I support this change based on risk factor.

araic88

YellowLead wrote: »

The only people who will complain are really are groups like teachers and only because they were looking forward to meeting up with other vaccinated teachers before everyone else.

What?

YellowLead

Viviana Nutritious Stretcher wrote: »

I don't believe the majority of education staff will be vaccinated by the new school year. I hope they are and if so then it's not an issue. I think it's optimistic in the extreme to believe that though. I am not disputing anything about risk factor - read my post where I support this change based on risk factor.

Plan is for all adults to be vaccinated by September? But anyway regardless of whether teachers are vaccinated or not by then - why would that prevent children from attending school??? All kids are returning to school shortly when teachers are unvaccinated, and indeed some cohorts returned a few weeks ago.

r93kaey5p2izun

duffman13 wrote: »

There is 6 - 8 weeks left in secondary school year, a large proportion of teachers will still get their first dose by end of June anyway and given the arrival of J&J may only need one dose.

Education staff who are vulnerable based on age will likely get there vaccine quicker now. This is all good news for those older teachers. Yes there will be some disruption with cases etc but given the numbers of vaccines coming on stream this process will speed things up massively as there is no great process in identifying special interest groups.

I don't see any credible reason to believe a large proportion of teachers, or any 20-50 year olds, will be vaccinated by June, or indeed September.

YellowLead

Viviana Nutritious Stretcher wrote: »

I don't see any credible reason to believe a large proportion of teachers, or any 20-50 year olds, will be vaccinated by June, or indeed September.

Unlikely by June alright but what’s the significance of June? The leaving cert? Non teachers can invigilate that so don’t think teachers not being vaccinated will put doing a physical exam in threat.

r93kaey5p2izun

YellowLead wrote: »

Plan is for all adults to be vaccinated by September? But anyway regardless of whether teachers are vaccinated or not by then - why would that prevent children from attending school??? All kids are returning to school shortly when teachers are unvaccinated, and indeed some cohorts returned a few weeks ago.

Perhaps you aren't aware of the crisis schools are currently facing in keeping classes open due to staff shortages - already an issue pre-Covid but exacerbated by the number of staff needing to restrict movements or isolate. And how it is students with AEN who are losing out as their teachers must be redeployed to avoid closing classes. And how many classes and year groups are sent home based on lack of staff. In my local school every year group has been on a 4 day week except 6th years from Oct to Dec.

I don't see any credible evidence to believe all will vaccinated by September.

History Queen

YellowLead wrote: »

Plan is for all adults to be vaccinated by September? But anyway regardless of whether teachers are vaccinated or not by then - why would that prevent children from attending school??? All kids are returning to school shortly when teachers are unvaccinated, and indeed some cohorts returned a few weeks ago.

I think this poster is speaking in relation to the recruitment crises. Covid cases and self-isolating by close contacts on staff has meant schools sending classes and yeargroups home because they don't have teachers to teach them.


I'm a bit torn by the new policy. I think those in close contact without mitigation such as social distancing and masks should have been prioritised but if this system really will speed things up so that our population is vaccinated faster then it is a good thing. I'm just a bit doubtful that it will speed things up. I thought the delays were largely supply related.

r93kaey5p2izun

YellowLead wrote: »

Unlikely by June alright but what’s the significance of June? The leaving cert? Non teachers can invigilate that so don’t think teachers not being vaccinated will put doing a physical exam in threat.

No particular significance of June except I was responding to a post saying a large proportion of teachers would receive dose 1 by end of June.

Overall the right thing to do, less complicated and should operate more efficiently.

What I do think should be done however is fairly strict reserve lists for surplus or doses in danger of going out of date, particularly at MVCs. That should include local schools, Gardai, Defence Forces, Supermarket/Food industry workers and so on.

Don't want to hear of any more family/friends/private schools of people getting to jump the queue because of who they know.

duffman13

Viviana Nutritious Stretcher wrote: »

I don't see any credible reason to believe a large proportion of teachers, or any 20-50 year olds, will be vaccinated by June, or indeed September.

Well I can't help you there, I can only work on the projected supply into the country for the next 2-3 months and apply that to the adult population of Ireland which would mean that comfortably by Septmeber the majority of the teachers of Ireland would be vaccinated in full

Teachers are no more or less at risk of dying than the average person of the same age

YellowLead

Viviana Nutritious Stretcher wrote: »

Perhaps you aren't aware of the crisis schools are currently facing in keeping classes open due to staff shortages - already an issue pre-Covid but exacerbated by the number of staff needing to restrict movements or isolate. And how it is students with AEN who are losing out as their teachers must be redeployed to avoid closing classes. And how many classes and year groups are sent home based on lack of staff. In my local school every year group has been on a 4 day week except 6th years from Oct to Dec.

I guess every school manages it differently. My son is in 5th year and this hasn’t been the case. Plenty of teachers randomly cancelling online classes when he was schooling from home alright but not due to having to stay at home because they were already at home. He’s been back for 3 weeks and thankfully hasn’t missed anything because schools are not an increased breeding ground for covid. Though teachers socialising can be an issue)
But good point regarding special needs teachers - I would have thought regular teachers would be re deployed to facilitate their classes and not the other way around!!!

I agree loss of school time is detrimental - but I don’t see early vaccines for teachers being the resolution there.

Danno

Its a good decision, but could have been strengthened by getting SNA's and Home Carers done as part of the HCW group, then turn to age based roll out.

The whinging from teachers and guards has been breathtaking, notions well above their grade. Nice to see them put back in their box with this decision. A hangover from the Catholic Church era when those who had a title of doctor, teacher, solicitor, banker and guard thought they were heads and shoulders above the peasants.

I suffer from an IBD and am part of a support group on social media. Lots of fellow sufferers have already being vaccinated outside Dublin.

My 75 year old father in law is not vaccinated.

That’s wrong to me. I’m uneasy about getting a vaccine before elderly people.

YellowLead

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I suffer from an IBD and am part of a support group on social media. Lots of fellow sufferers have already being vaccinated outside Dublin.

My 75 year old father in law is not vaccinated.

That’s wrong to me. I’m uneasy about getting a vaccine before elderly people.

What is IBD if you don’t mind me asking?

Sofa King Great

Teachers unions are holding the country to ransom once again here. We could spend years sorting out a priority list for vaccines or we could just get on with getting vaccines in to the arms of those most at risk. The quickest and easiest way to do that is by age

Let's not forget that the whole country have an extra week of restrictions as they want to get schools open before easing any other restrictions - we just have to wait until they finish their easter holidays first

FlubberJones

Seems like a good plan as long as they can execute it well, being slightly older it means I will get one sooner rather than later. Meaning I can get my life back on track... hopefully

r93kaey5p2izun

duffman13 wrote: »

Well I can't help you there, I can only work on the projected supply into the country for the next 2-3 months and apply that to the adult population of Ireland which would mean that comfortably by Septmeber the majority of the teachers of Ireland would be vaccinated in full

Teachers are no more or less at risk of dying than the average person of the same age

Is there a reason to put that last sentence in your reply to me, given I have stated twice now that I support the change to the roll out based on risk, and made no arguments based on risk to teachers? It seems a little odd.

But regarding projected supply, so far it has not gone to schedule so I have zero confidence in their claims for such a timeline. If others do then that's grand and would explain why they're not concerned about disruption in the new school year. I hope they're right.

EmptyTree

Let's not count our chickens yet.
The interest groups could still get their way, interesting article here on the RTE Web page. https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2021/0331/1207137-teachers-vaccine/

Danno

YellowLead wrote: »

What is IBD if you don’t mind me asking?

Inflammatory bowel disease?
Could be wrong though.

Rolling it out by age is definitely the way to go.

There was a high amount of health care workers off sick after they received their first jab of AZ. I’d say there would be staff shortage issues across plenty of professions if they hadn’t changed it.

firemansam4

So you have the teachers unions, guards up in arms over this.

The one industrial sector (apart from HCW) who have actually been badly effected by large outbreaks is the meat processing plants, they wont even get a mention.
But they dont have them big unions and lobby groups to shout for them I guess.

Overall I think this is the right thing for the government to do anyway....

plodder

Multipass wrote: »

I think it makes sense. Just heard someone from a transport union on the radio say their members will refuse to go above 50% capacity until they’re vaccinated. Pretty despicable to try to use leverage like that.

It may well be the right thing on balance to vaccinate by age, but don't pretend that there aren't consequences resulting from that, eg reduced capacity on public transport for a longer time.

Some people are really losing the run of themselves here. I suppose the thread title sets the scene with "special interest groups" etc.

iamwhoiam

Yes I think its a good idea .It cuts out a huge admin problem with groups lobbying and those who can shout loudest getting it first .Although I would make an exception for teachers in special needs schools and facilities

r93kaey5p2izun

YellowLead wrote: »

But good point regarding special needs teachers - I would have thought regular teachers would be re deployed to facilitate their classes and not the other way around!!!

I guess that just demonstrates that you have no understanding of how schools operate, so it makes more sense that you aren't concerned about staffing related closures and disruption. I'm glad to hear your child's school has managed well though. I can't say the same for the schools with which I'm familiar.

Hopefully these plans for adults to be vaccinated by September are accurate though. I will be delighted to be wrong if it happens.

YellowLead

YellowLead wrote: »

What is IBD if you don’t mind me asking?

Irritable Bowel Disease.

It can be very serious for people and does involve taking steroids that bring down your immune system.

But I think elderly should be prioritised.

History Queen

firemansam4 wrote: »

So you have the teachers unions, guards up in arms over this.

The one industrial sector (apart from HCW) who have actually been badly effected by large outbreaks is the meat processing plants, they wont even get a mention.
But they dont have them big unions and lobby groups to shout for them I guess.

Overall I think this is the right thing for the government to do anyway....

Are meat processing plants not getting prioritised via the old group 9?

SEPT 23 1989

Government have got this right

Its how a Republic should operate

hotmail.com

Teachers, who have not suffered any income reduction, are really showing themselves to be a pathetic bunch in this pandemic.

The idea that a 29 year old teacher should be vaccinated before a person in their 60s is daft.

History Queen

hotmail.com wrote: »

Teachers, who have not suffered any income reduction, are really showing themselves to be a pathetic bunch in this pandemic.

The idea that a 29 year old teacher should be vaccinated before a person in their 60s is daft.

The fact that you equate income reduction to a right to voice concerns speaks volumes.

Do you really think that an SNA or a Special Education Teacher or member of staff working in July provision should not be vaccinated ahead of someone working from home? Not just for their protection but for the protection and education of the children in their care?

Natterjack from Kerry

Listening to Dr Butler there, its an absolute good. It isn't even a close call for debate. There will be moaning from interest groups not understanding, or not wanting to understand the science, but its is clearly the fairest way.

History Queen

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Listening to Dr Butler there, its an absolute good. It isn't even a close call for debate. There will be moaning from interest groups not understanding, or not wanting to understand the science, but its is clearly the fairest way.

What was that on? Would like to listen back? I'm on the fence overall as I'm slow to trust that the rollout will be as fast as they say.

Natterjack from Kerry

Teachers are being heard loudly protesting, but that's because they are literally paying people, whose job is to moan on their behalf.

hotmail.com

History Queen wrote: »

The fact that you equate income reduction to a right to voice concerns speaks volumes.

Do you really think that an SNA or a Special Education Tecaher or member of staff working in July provision should not be vaccinated ahead of someone working from home? Not just for their protection but for the protection and education of the children in their care?

Speaks volumes about? My integrity?

The process is prioritising on age because older people are more likely to end up in hospital or die.

Vaccinating younger people (even if they work in close contact with other people) before older people therefore is daft.

Just because a job involves working in close contact with people, doesn't entitle you to a vaccine. Age is the issue.

Natterjack from Kerry

History Queen wrote: »

What was that on? Would like to listen back? I'm on the fence overall as I'm slow to trust that the rollout will be as fast as they say.

Dobson on on Rte radio 1.

History Queen

History Queen wrote: »

The fact that you equate income reduction to a right to voice concerns speaks volumes.

Do you really think that an SNA or a Special Education Teacher or member of staff working in July provision should not be vaccinated ahead of someone working from home? Not just for their protection but for the protection and education of the children in their care?

Will they not still be vaccinating people with serious medical issues regardless of age? I thought that part wasn’t changing.