Advice needed - Public Green access

Barney224 · 30-03-2021 9:38am #1

looking for some advice here.

I live in an estate (cul de sac) and across from the houses is a large green. Behind this green there are other houses where their long gardens back onto it, but no easy access to the green.

I have heard rumours that one of the residents there wants to build a new house/site on his garden, but would need an access to this through our green. For years I've noticed that he has a big gap from his garden onto the green and over past few weeks I've seen himself and others (which I assume are engineers) on the green, pointing here and there.

What are the legalities of this and do we (myself and neighbours) have a right to block this plan? I thought all public greens in estates couldn't be altered.

Calahonda52 · 30-03-2021 9:48am

look up the estatee on landdirect.ieand see if the green has shared ownership. My estate has shared ownership of the green and it shows on the map

Barney224 · 30-03-2021 9:54am

Calahonda52 wrote: »

look up the estatee on landdirect.ieand see if the green has shared ownership. My estate has of the green and it shows on the map

Thanks. I looked that up and our green, including other greens/roads, in the estate are marked as Title Level: Freehold. Does that mean they have shared ownership?

Metric Tensor · 30-03-2021 11:47am

Freehold means somebody owns it. You can pay 5 euro to get the document that gives you the name of the "freeholder"

Barney224 · 30-03-2021 12:49pm

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Freehold means somebody owns it. You can pay 5 euro to get the document that gives you the name of the "freeholder"

Actually you just reminded me, a neighbour (who has since moved out) already did this a few years ago and gave me a copy of the document. It's still confusing to me though.

In the Description it states "A plot of ground being part of the Townland of XXXXXXX". (I'd rather not show my townland on this forum).

Also there's a section called Part 1(B) - Property Parts Transferred. In here it lists a number of Plans, which I think are the houses within the estate.

And then a final section called "Part 3 - Burdens and Notices of Burdens". Here it states "The property is subject to the right of way and other easements specified in the following instruments:....." and it lists a few Instrument numbers, which I've no idea what they actually mean.

Calahonda52 · 30-03-2021 1:17pm

don't think so
this is wat I see
is the estate run by th LA for maintaining the green, ours is not

Barney224 · 30-03-2021 1:47pm

This is what I see on the map....

AndrewJRenko · 30-03-2021 2:27pm

Barney224 wrote: »

looking for some advice here.

I live in an estate (cul de sac) and across from the houses is a large green. Behind this green there are other houses where their long gardens back onto it, but no easy access to the green.

I have heard rumours that one of the residents there wants to build a new house/site on his garden, but would need an access to this through our green. For years I've noticed that he has a big gap from his garden onto the green and over past few weeks I've seen himself and others (which I assume are engineers) on the green, pointing here and there.

What are the legalities of this and do we (myself and neighbours) have a right to block this plan? I thought all public greens in estates couldn't be altered.

What do you mean by "big gap from his garden"? Does he have a gap in his back wall that others don't?

Barney224 · 30-03-2021 2:32pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What do you mean by "big gap from his garden"? Does he have a gap in his back wall that others don't?

there is/was a hedgerow along the back of the green. One of the houses has a concrete wall, but this house in question, has a big gap in the hedge.

AndrewJRenko · 30-03-2021 2:35pm

Barney224 wrote: »

there is/was a hedgerow along the back of the green. One of the houses has a concrete wall, but this house in question, has a big gap in the hedge.

And no concrete wall? Did it ever have a wall?

Seems crazy for security reasons to leave the back of your house exposed. Could anyone just waltz into his back garden from the green?

Barney224 · 30-03-2021 2:39pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And no concrete wall? Did it ever have a wall?

Seems crazy for security reasons to leave the back of your house exposed. Could anyone just waltz into his back garden from the green?

well, these particular houses were built well before ours (probably in the 50s or 60s), so the hedgerow would have been originally there. He probably deliberately left a gap so he has an entrance. But yes, anyone could walk into his garden from the green.

Calahonda52 · 30-03-2021 3:14pm

can you mark up the map to show whats what

Barney224 · 30-03-2021 3:25pm

Calahonda52 wrote: »

can you mark up the map to show whats what

Metric Tensor · 30-03-2021 3:52pm

Barney224 wrote: »

Actually you just reminded me, a neighbour (who has since moved out) already did this a few years ago and gave me a copy of the document. It's still confusing to me though.

In the Description it states "A plot of ground being part of the Townland of XXXXXXX". (I'd rather not show my townland on this forum).

Also there's a section called Part 1(B) - Property Parts Transferred. In here it lists a number of Plans, which I think are the houses within the estate.

And then a final section called "Part 3 - Burdens and Notices of Burdens". Here it states "The property is subject to the right of way and other easements specified in the following instruments:....." and it lists a few Instrument numbers, which I've no idea what they actually mean.

Find "Part 2 - Ownership" and read the last name in that section. All the others should be crossed off.

Barney224 · 30-03-2021 4:27pm

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Find "Part 2 - Ownership" and read the last name in that section. All the others should be crossed off.

OK, so in that section, the owner is listed as the company that built the estate, but it's since been dissolved and not operating anymore. The date on the folio is 2000!

Under this there's a line stating "Production of Land Certificate Dispensed with (Rule 170) R.O.B. Vol 76 Pg. 82..."

I had a look at part 3 Burdens section and has this notice...

The property is subject to such of the rights, covenants and conditions (if any) relating to the use and enjoyment thereof made between XXXXXX DEVELOPMENTS LIMITED of the one part and the registered owners of the new folios specified in Part 1B of this Folio.

So would this mean that they have handed it over to the residents (which are listed in Part 1B)?

Metric Tensor · 30-03-2021 4:38pm

Barney224 wrote: »

OK, so in that section, the owner is listed as the company that built the estate, but it's since been dissolved and not operating anymore. The date on the folio is 2000!

Is there a management company for the estate? If there is the correct course of action (under the MUD Act) would have been for this portion of land to be handed over to that management company.

Barney224 wrote: »

I had a look at part 3 Burdens section and has this notice...

The property is subject to such of the rights, covenants and conditions (if any) relating to the use and enjoyment thereof made between XXXXXX DEVELOPMENTS LIMITED of the one part and the registered owners of the new folios specified in Part 1B of this Folio.

So would this mean that they have handed it over to the residents (which are listed in Part 1B)?

I could be corrected on this but I think that only allows the owners listed in Part 1B to certain "uses and enjoyment" of the land. Not ownership of it.

However, access across the green area could be considered an appropriate use. So if your neighbour can currently use it to access his back garden then he may also be allowed use it to access anything he builds in his back garden.

N.B. I am not an expert in the laws in this area so I could be mistaken on any of the above.

sydthebeat · 30-03-2021 4:47pm

i would like to think any application in that back garden would be viewed by the planning authority as disorganised, unresolved and haphazard.

Barney224 · 30-03-2021 5:56pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

i would like to think any application in that back garden would be viewed by the planning authority as disorganised, unresolved and haphazard.

That's what I'm thinking, especially if he's planning to rip up the green to put in an access road.

Barney224 · 30-03-2021 5:58pm

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Is there a management company for the estate? If there is the correct course of action (under the MUD Act) would have been for this portion of land to be handed over to that management company.

There's no management company involved in the estate. We all have to pay for our own grass cutting of the green and mainteance.

Metric Tensor · 30-03-2021 6:22pm

Barney224 wrote: »

There's no management company involved in the estate. We all have to pay for our own grass cutting of the green and mainteance.

That's the root of your issue. If there was a management company then all the residents would have a say in how the public areas are kept and developed. And that would also be how you would all share ownership of the green area.

Leaving the current issue out of the matter, the absence of a proper management company is something that people may take advantage of in future. In theory there would be nothing to stop the developer coming back from the woodwork and applying for planning permission to build 10 houses on the land they still own!

Barney224 · 30-03-2021 6:37pm

Metric Tensor wrote: »

That's the root of your issue. If there was a management company then all the residents would have a say in how the public areas are kept and developed. And that would also be how you would all share ownership of the green area.

Leaving the current issue out of the matter, the absence of a proper management company is something that people may take advantage of in future. In theory there would be nothing to stop the developer coming back from the woodwork and applying for planning permission to build 10 houses on the land they still own!

As far as I'm aware the original owner of the management company has passed away, and also the company is dissolved.

But surely, if we've been taking care of the green spaces over the past 15 years, then we have a right to ownership?

Metric Tensor · 30-03-2021 8:06pm

If the company still own the property they must not be dissolved or the assets would have been disposed of.

The residents of the estate have a clear right to ownership definitely. But having a right to own something is very different from actually owning it.

Separate from the current planning issue you need to consult a solicitor about setting up a management company for your own protection (especially if you or your heirs might want to sell your house in future). If the residents are already paying for maintenance anyway then a management company only formalises this.

Barney224 · 31-03-2021 7:57am

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Separate from the current planning issue you need to consult a solicitor about setting up a management company for your own protection (especially if you or your heirs might want to sell your house in future). If the residents are already paying for maintenance anyway then a management company only formalises this.

Is this not a bit OTT? What do you mean by my "own protection"?. my original concern and assumption here was that the greens are only at risk, but looking at your comments, it seems you're suggesting my property is also at risk!

Metric Tensor · 31-03-2021 8:06am

Barney224 wrote: »

Is this not a bit OTT? What do you mean by my "own protection"?. my original concern and assumption here was that the greens are only at risk, but looking at your comments, it seems you're suggesting my property is also at risk!

What I meant by your own protection is that it can be difficult to sell a house in an estate that doesn't have a management company and it generally devalues the house!

I didn't mean that there's any physical danger to your house. Just that it might be devalued by there not being a management company.

Barney224 · 31-03-2021 8:34am

Metric Tensor wrote: »

What I meant by your own protection is that it can be difficult to sell a house in an estate that doesn't have a management company and it generally devalues the house!

I didn't mean that there's any physical danger to your house. Just that it might be devalued by there not being a management company.

Oh OK. I never heard of this issue before. Houses around me and the other side of the estate have sold in recent years without any difficulties and at the standard market rates, so I don't see not having a management company as being a challenge.

As I mentioned, we all look after the green by contributing to a grass cutting fund and other than that we look after our own patches.

ZX7R · 31-03-2021 9:37am

OP you need to know if it's a green amenity area or a green commons area.
If it's the latter and access rights are giving to the houses in the map .
You need to find the papers for it it would tell what access rights are there.
How long has the resident lived at the address is important, the fact you state they have no rear wall or fencing is a clear indication that they kept the right of access active doesn't matter if they use the entrance they will have shown intent to use.
The fact that the houses were constructed 50 to 60 years ago, means it was or could still be in some form under the council management.
Bear in mind it sounds like you're neighbour has been considering this for a while and probably knows there rights to what there doing.

The J Stands for Jay · 31-03-2021 9:51am

You'd want to object to the planning permission for this new house anyway. It could work out easier than trying to investigate the rights of this green area.

Barney224 · 31-03-2021 11:07am

McGaggs wrote: »

You'd want to object to the planning permission for this new house anyway. It could work out easier than trying to investigate the rights of this green area.

yes, we'll be doing this anyway, hopefully with the support of all the neighbours around the green.

Metric Tensor · 31-03-2021 12:55pm

You can definitely make an observation/objection to any potential planning in your own right as can anyone and to be honest it doesn't sound like the development you've described would get planning permission anyway.

But ownership of the green and chancers trying to take advantage of that may happen again in future so no harm investigating that in the long run also.

Advice needed - Public Green access

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