Landlord refusing proof of rent letter

Retr0gamer

I'm applying for a mortgage at the moment and to cut a long story short I've been renting cash in hand for 2.5 years and the landlord has flat out refused to give me a letter proving I've been renting there. What are my options here? It's pretty much the only thing left that I need to start the application.

Baby01032012

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm applying for a mortgage at the moment and to cut a long story short I've been renting cash in hand for 2.5 years and the landlord has flat out refused to give me a letter proving I've been renting there. What are my options here? It's pretty much the only thing left that I need to start the application.

I’d suggest talking to him and explaining your mortgage app is dependent on proof of payment. I’d assume he’s refusing as he is accepting cash and not declaring it for tax. He doesn’t have to provide the letter hence why I’d try talk him around.

Could you prove through cash withdrawals from your bank instead of landlord confirming. If you have lease use that however I assume you have no written lease.

Gael23

That’s because he’s not tax compliant most likely

wench

He should have been signing a rent book for you as you went along.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/rent_books.html

Let him know you'll have to follow up with the council if he won't comply with his legal obligations...

kirving

Remind him that there's an easy way and a hard way.

Give you the letter, it goes to the bank, no more said.

He doesn't, you go to Revenue. They'll love nothing more than to send him a massive bill plus fines.

kirving

kirving wrote: »

Remind him that there's an easy way and a hard way.

Give you the letter, it goes to the bank, no more said.

He doesn't, you go to Revenue. They'll love nothing more than to send him a massive bill plus fines.

Of course if he is tax compliant or if Revenue don’t bother taking an interest, the op has a better chance of winning the lottery than getting any assistance from the LL.

elperello

https://www.threshold.ie/advice/seeking-private-rented-accommodation/should-i-be-given-a-rent-book-or-lease/

This link might help.

kirving

Dav010 wrote: »

Of course if he is tax compliant or if Revenue don’t bother taking an interest, the op has a better chance of winning the lottery than getting any assistance from the LL.

Well, as it stands, they're not getting any assistance, so nothing to lose.

I'm open to any reasonable suggestions as to why a professional landlord might not provide a simple letter. There's one glaringly obvious one.

My employer has templates that take 30 seconds to fill out for basic information like this, which equally they have no legal obligation to provide.

FobleAsNuck

Ask for up to date rent book, it's their obligation.

Vestiapx

Cash used to be a thing where people would treat each other with respect: I give you cash I get a cheaper price no one any the wiser. Nowadays it seems that as soon as there is any issue it's tell revenue this and demand rent book that.
Why were you paying cash OP? Like in this day and age is it not a thousand times easier to just transfer the money.

No way I'd be paying cash unless I was earning cash and wanted rid without having to lodge or if I was getting a discount.

The man is clearly non tax compliant and will not want either to write a letter stating this or a letter from Revenue saying you did same.

Retr0gamer

I was pretty sure they weren't tax compliant when I started. I did sign something for them. I asked for a rent book and they said they couldn't provide one so I asked would they be able to provide a letter if I was going for a mortgage which they agreed to, verbally though.

I've made sure to take out the exact amount as a cash withdrawal at the same time every month so it will appear in my bank statements.

I'd rather avoid the nuclear option as I'd say landlord will have no qualms turfing me out on my ear.

Vestiapx

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I was pretty sure they weren't tax compliant when I started. I did sign something for them. I asked for a rent book and they said they couldn't provide one so I asked would they be able to provide a letter if I was going for a mortgage which they agreed to, verbally though.

I've made sure to take out the exact amount as a cash withdrawal at the same time every month so it will appear in my bank statements.

I'd rather avoid the nuclear option as I'd say landlord will have no qualms turfing me out on my ear.

Show the bank people the withdrawals and explain the circumstances it should be obvious what's going on.

Retr0gamer

Vestiapx wrote: »

Show the bank people the withdrawals and explain the circumstances it should be obvious what's going on.

I'll give them a ring tomorrow and see where I can go. Thanks.

MacDanger

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I was pretty sure they weren't tax compliant when I started. I did sign something for them. I asked for a rent book and they said they couldn't provide one so I asked would they be able to provide a letter if I was going for a mortgage which they agreed to, verbally though.

I've made sure to take out the exact amount as a cash withdrawal at the same time every month so it will appear in my bank statements.

I'd rather avoid the nuclear option as I'd say landlord will have no qualms turfing me out on my ear.

Tbf, the LL can't just turf you out, you have rights as a tenant

MacDanger

MacDanger wrote: »

Tbf, the LL can't just turf you out, you have rights as a tenant

He can, as long as he does so legally.

Retr0gamer

MacDanger wrote: »

Tbf, the LL can't just turf you out, you have rights as a tenant

I've seen them do it through a gentlemans agreement with tenants that caused trouble.

RedXIV

Are you dealing with the bank directly? A good broker may be able to get around it?

Could look at doing up the letter yourself and that way he just needs to sign it? can be harder to turn down a signature rather than a full letter

Retr0gamer

Broker. I'll see tomorrow if broker has a way around it tomorrow before going through other avenues.

Caranica

Vestiapx wrote: »

Show the bank people the withdrawals and explain the circumstances it should be obvious what's going on.

Happened a friend, bank wouldn't accept cash withdrawals as proof of paying rent. They had to move into a new rental for 6 months and then reapply.

kirving

Caranica wrote: »

Happened a friend, bank wouldn't accept cash withdrawals as proof of paying rent. They had to move into a new rental for 6 months and then reapply.

For the sake of someone refusing to provide a letter or rent book. Crazy. Has to be something untoward going on if they'd prefer someone to move out than provide a receipt, and it's impossible to look past the tax issue.

And Revenue are very very interested in people taking the piss btw.

https://www.ros.ie/online-enquiry-web/goodCitizen

Mrs OBumble

MacDanger wrote: »

Tbf, the LL can't just turf you out, you have rights as a tenant

If you cannot provide that you paid your rent, they can claim you are in arrears and start proceedings against you.

Moonbeam

Is the lease registered with the PRTB? are you renting a room or a house/apt?

Sesame

I've a mortgage with Ulster and never needed to provide any sort of letter. All the payments going out are detailed on your bank statement. Is this a new thing or is your broker just trying to cover all possibilities before submitting any applications?

Sesame

I should add, my mortgage application was only about 5months ago and drew down 2 months ago with ulster bank. They didn't need any such landlord letter.

El Tarangu

This is 100% the logical outcome of your nod-and-a-wink agreement with your landlord, and tbh I'm not sorry that you are suffering at least some negative consequences as a result.

MacDanger

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If you cannot provide that you paid your rent, they can claim you are in arrears and start proceedings against you.

The LL could claim that but it doesn't seem like it would work out too great for them

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I've made sure to take out the exact amount as a cash withdrawal at the same time every month so it will appear in my bank statements.

Busi_Girl08

Sesame wrote: »

I've a mortgage with Ulster and never needed to provide any sort of letter. All the payments going out are detailed on your bank statement. Is this a new thing or is your broker just trying to cover all possibilities before submitting any applications?

The OP is paying in cash though. The bank statement will just show the amount of cash withdrawn.

Retr0gamer

Talked to the broker. They said they might be able to proceed as I've been making regular savings payments. If that isn't enough I'll have to take the nuclear option and threaten to contact the council. More than likely will get me turfed out but I think they would be stupid to risk an audit from revenue for the sake of a letter.

MacDanger

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Talked to the broker. They said they might be able to proceed as I've been making regular savings payments. If that isn't enough I'll have to take the nuclear option and threaten to contact the council. More than likely will get me turfed out but I think they would be stupid to risk an audit from revenue for the sake of a letter.

You can't just be "turfed out" without the LL following the proper procedures. As a tenant of 2.5 years, you're entitled to 120 days notice which doesn't begin until Covid Level 5 ends.

Good luck with it

Once you get sorted, report him to Revenue anyway

Browney7

El Tarangu wrote: »

This is 100% the logical outcome of your nod-and-a-wink agreement with your landlord, and tbh I'm not sorry that you are suffering at least some negative consequences as a result.

Not sure where you see the evidence in the thread of the OP benefiting from paying cash? Or are you assuming he/she is getting cheaper rent as they are paying cash? - which may not actually be the case...

kirving

El Tarangu wrote: »

This is 100% the logical outcome of your nod-and-a-wink agreement with your landlord, and tbh I'm not sorry that you are suffering at least some negative consequences as a result.

Nice. Explain how the OP is benefitting from this situation as you suggest.

Is there a legal obligation that the OP is not fulfilling here?

The J Stands for Jay

MacDanger wrote: »

Tbf, the LL can't just turf you out, you have rights as a tenant

Like the right to a rent book and receipts....

Sebastian Dangerfield

Vestiapx wrote: »

Cash used to be a thing where people would treat each other with respect: I give you cash I get a cheaper price no one any the wiser. Nowadays it seems that as soon as there is any issue it's tell revenue this and demand rent book that.
Why were you paying cash OP? Like in this day and age is it not a thousand times easier to just transfer the money.

A few years ago I came out of a long term relationship where I had lived with my ex, and needed to find somewhere to live with a strong preference for not having to go back sharing with others in my 30s.

There was literally nothing affordable - even dumps of studios were priced with a dual salary couple in mind - then I got lucky and found a sub-divided house that was perfect, with one caveat; rent had to be paid weekly, in cash. Right down to the additional €2.50 per week towards the bins, in coins. I'm not even sure if was for tax reasons, because she gave me a receipt each time - she was just old fashioned.

I'm not saying it's the OPs case, but sometimes necessity dictates the situation.

Vestiapx

MacDanger wrote: »

You can't just be "turfed out" without the LL following the proper procedures. As a tenant of 2.5 years, you're entitled to 120 days notice which doesn't begin until Covid Level 5 ends.

Good luck with it

Once you get sorted, report him to Revenue anyway

Report him why?


There was an agreement between the OP and the landlord that the payments would be cash. This would have benefited both of them at the time or it wouldn't have happened. Whatever about using the threat of reporting him as leverage to an end the idea of "report him anyway" sickens me.

To clarify my issue is not that I deal in cash I don't and I never have but I'm fully aware of what it means. If a person offers you a tenancy only if you pay cash and you don't like it then report away but if you do a deal you should stick by that deal.

OP, if it comes to it try asking the land lord for a letter saying you have been there since six month ago, he wont have done his tax returns for 2020 yet and wont be actively confessing to tax fraud.

1874

Dav010 wrote: »

He can, as long as he does so legally.

This kind of nonsense needs to be challenged, the poster should stand over their statement how this could be possible under the circumstances described in the OP, because I say slim to not at all and with a very unpleasant come back.


a landlord may be under no obligations to directly assist in the enquiry made, but they cant then go and make something of it and decide to start to move the tenant out.


So poster, how could a scenario you have stated occur??


Maybe something like this;

Tenant: Id like to get a letter confirming how much I have/I am paying as rent.
Landlord: No (for whatever or no reason), rightyo this tenant is on thin ice, Im going to get rid of them.


They will be given very short shrift at the RTB,
so what legal avenues do yo think exist

Vestiapx

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

A few years ago I came out of a long term relationship where I had lived with my ex, and needed to find somewhere to live with a strong preference for not having to go back sharing with others in my 30s.

There was literally nothing affordable - even dumps of studios were priced with a dual salary couple in mind - then I got lucky and found a sub-divided house that was perfect, with one caveat; rent had to be paid weekly, in cash. Right down to the additional €2.50 per week towards the bins, in coins. I'm not saying it's the OPs case, but sometimes necessity dictates the situation.

Yes, as per my point, it was cheaper because it was cash, that's a win - win deal and should be treated as such. Changing the terms of the deal after one has had their advantage is not on in my book. ( my book is out of date but the world is not better because we start breaking our word to each other)

cruizer101

El Tarangu wrote: »

This is 100% the logical outcome of your nod-and-a-wink agreement with your landlord, and tbh I'm not sorry that you are suffering at least some negative consequences as a result.

LL's tax obligations are no concern of the OP.

OP do you have any texts or that that show you are regularly meeting the LL to give them rent or to confirm rent received.
Ideally if you can get bank to approve without needing to go to LL that is best option.
Next, print the letter and try just get him to sign, explaining it is only for the bank to confirm your outgoings, they don't care who it is going to.
After that you might have to play hardball and demand rentbook, with threats of reporting to revenue if not.

I'd be inclined to report him anyway once you have your own place.

MacDanger

Vestiapx wrote: »

Report him why?


There was an agreement between the OP and the landlord that the payments would be cash. This would have benefited both of them at the time or it wouldn't have happened. Whatever about using the threat of reporting him as leverage to an end the idea of "report him anyway" sickens me.

To clarify my issue is not that I deal in cash I don't and I never have but I'm fully aware of what it means. If a person offers you a tenancy only if you pay cash and you don't like it then report away but if you do a deal you should stick by that deal.

OP, if it comes to it try asking the land lord for a letter saying you have been there since six month ago, he wont have done his tax returns for 2020 yet and wont be actively confessing to tax fraud.

The OPs tenancy started in late 2018 so presumably it was pretty difficult to get a tenancy back then, how much leverage do you think the OP had with negotiating a rent reduction for cash? I'd safely say zero

People dodging tax sickens me much more than people reporting those who are dodging tax

Sebastian Dangerfield

Vestiapx wrote: »

Yes, as per my point, it was cheaper because it was cash, that's a win - win deal and should be treated as such. Changing the terms of the deal after one has had their advantage is not on in my book. ( my book is out of date but the world is not better because we start breaking our word to each other)

In my experience, there was no agreement, implicit or explicit, that I was getting a cheaper rate because I was paying cash, which could then effect my tenant rights later on. She told me it was just how she managed her properties. The fact that I was getting a receipt probably meant it didn't cross my mind - I thought she was just odd, maybe naively so.

That was the price she asked, it was the price I paid, with no negotiation. It still wasn't cheap (€160 p.w., 7-8 years ago).

I certainly wouldn't purposely try to cause issues for them after the event, but your assumption seems to be if you accept your rent being paid in cash, you have no complaint when the landlord doesn't uphold the obligations expected of a landlord. Can't say I agree with that.

dudeeile

You could just write and sign the letter on behalf of the landlord.

JimmyVik

Rent book. Simple.
Either tell the landlord to fill it in and backdate it to when you moved in or
Fill it in yourself.
And if it suits you and makes it easier to get a mortgage out down a lower rent every month.
Then landlord wont know.

thebiggestjim

OP, to address your original reason for proof of rent. You don't need proof of rent from your landlord to succeed in a mortgage application. I had no proof of rent as I was in the same situation as yours and it was not an issue on my application. Two things you need to do:

1) When the bank ask for proof of rent from your landlord tell them I won't be able to obtain one from the landlord (mention your cash situation, it is very common) and this situation won't change. I can't make one up for you.

2) Start taking out the exact amount of your rent from your bank at the beginning of the month each month. e.g. Your base rent it EUR1000 per month, you take out EUR1000 on the 1st of the month. After 3-4 months this will satisfy the bank, perhaps sooner.

That is it.

Vestiapx

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't purposely try to cause issues for them after the event, but your assumption seems to be if you accept your rent being paid in cash, you have no complaint when the landlord doesn't uphold the obligations expected of a landlord. Can't say I agree with that.

I'm saying don't report someone, you agreed to pay in cash, to Revenue as this is a breaking of a deal and that its just not right. I am not sayin that any of the responsibilities of being a landlord are excused at all.

I don't honestly care I just think the OP should honor the original arrangement. If Revenue decide to investigate based on they're report it will cause massive expense to the person he has been dealing with for 2.5 years.

elperello

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I was pretty sure they weren't tax compliant when I started. I did sign something for them. I asked for a rent book and they said they couldn't provide one so I asked would they be able to provide a letter if I was going for a mortgage which they agreed to, verbally though.

I've made sure to take out the exact amount as a cash withdrawal at the same time every month so it will appear in my bank statements.

I'd rather avoid the nuclear option as I'd say landlord will have no qualms turfing me out on my ear.

Vestiapx wrote: »

I'm saying don't report someone, you agreed to pay in cash, to Revenue as this is a breaking of a deal and that its just not right. I am not sayin that any of the responsibilities of being a landlord are excused at all.

I don't honestly care I just think the OP should honor the original arrangement. If Revenue decide to investigate based on they're report it will cause massive expense to the person he has been dealing with for 2.5 years.

It was actually the landlord who didn't stick to the deal as outlined in the OP's post above.

He said he would provide a letter for the mortgage and now he is refusing.

The OP stuck to his side of the bargain by paying the rent in cash.

Normally I would agree with your point about not reporting someone you have made a cash deal with from which you benefit but it cuts both ways.

riffmongous

Yep, definitely report him once you are secure OP

MacDanger

MacDanger wrote: »

People dodging tax sickens me much more than people reporting those who are dodging tax

MacDanger, have you seen the Landlords tax returns? If you haven’t, you are making yourself ill un-necessarily.

MacDanger

Dav010 wrote: »

MacDanger, have you seen the Landlords tax returns? If you haven’t, you are making yourself ill un-necessarily.

Thanks for your concern but it's unnecessary

I was responding specifically to this:

Vestiapx wrote: »

There was an agreement between the OP and the landlord that the payments would be cash. This would have benefited both of them at the time or it wouldn't have happened. Whatever about using the threat of reporting him as leverage to an end the idea of "report him anyway" sickens me.

coolbeans

Vestiapx wrote: »

I'm saying don't report someone, you agreed to pay in cash, to Revenue as this is a breaking of a deal and that its just not right. I am not sayin that any of the responsibilities of being a landlord are excused at all.

I don't honestly care I just think the OP should honor the original arrangement. If Revenue decide to investigate based on they're report it will cause massive expense to the person he has been dealing with for 2.5 years.

If the LL had stuck to the agreement there would be no issue but they didn't so there is. As a result they've made life much harder for the OP. I know what I'd do, I'd make life hard for the landlord too by reporting them. Probably sickens you but I'd be sick if my mortgage application was messed up because of the landlord's lies and deal welging. Somehow though, there's always somebody to make an excuse for bad behaviour in this country. Starting your post by going on about what's 'right' is highly ironic in that case.

Retr0gamer

I'm not benefiting from the cash situation. I needed to move to across the country for a job and it was the only room I could find that was decent and had an en suite. I asked about a rentbook. They said they couldn't supply one. Then I asked them that I would be applying for a mortgage down the lie and could they supply a letter showing paid rent if I asked. They said yes. I knew I didn't have much right especially as I'm a lodger as the family lives in the house but I expected them to uphold the verbal agreement.

mickdw

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm not benefiting from the cash situation. I needed to move to across the country for a job and it was the only room I could find that was decent and had an en suite. I asked about a rentbook. They said they couldn't supply one. Then I asked them that I would be applying for a mortgage down the lie and could they supply a letter showing paid rent if I asked. They said yes. I knew I didn't have much right especially as I'm a lodger as the family lives in the house but I expected them to uphold the verbal agreement.

Rent a room should be tax free up to a reasonable limit so unless they are doing multiple rent a rooms, they could have been doing this fully tax compliant and not cost them anything.

wench

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm not benefiting from the cash situation. I needed to move to across the country for a job and it was the only room I could find that was decent and had an en suite. I asked about a rentbook. They said they couldn't supply one. Then I asked them that I would be applying for a mortgage down the lie and could they supply a letter showing paid rent if I asked. They said yes. I knew I didn't have much right especially as I'm a lodger as the family lives in the house but I expected them to uphold the verbal agreement.

Well you buried the lede there. As a lodger you have no right to a rent book or anything else.

Unfortunately you have no recourse here, and will have to hope a broker can get the bank to accept your regular withdrawals as evidence.