OECD says Irish students not equipped to think outside the box

Invidious

Some hard-hitting comments on the Irish school system from Andreas Schleicher, head of the OECD's education division.

Ireland’s education system is based on a 20th century model of learning and needs to modernise to avoid producing “second-class robots” in a world of rapid technological change, the head of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s education division has said.

Andreas Schleicher, one of the most influential figures in global education, said there was still too much focus in Irish classrooms on transmitting knowledge and not enough on equipping students to “think outside the box”.

“It’s very much a 20th century kind of education, infrastructure and architecture, quite industrial in its outlook and its design,” he said.

“Students get taught one curriculum, it’s quite heavily focused on the reproduction of subject matter content, and not that much focus on getting students to think out of the box and link across the boundaries of subject matter disciplines.”

He's completely right. We have a one-size-fits-all curriculum heavily oriented around learning off information for the purpose of passing exams, rather than teaching students to think creatively. But can reform happen? I don't see teachers eager to embrace change, and politicians seem happy enough with the status quo. "Thinking outside the box" has always been frowned upon in Ireland.

Eric Cartman

We also increasingly built 3rd level qualifications which encourage regurgitation of whatever the lecturer says or following flawed conclusions from data.

We need to go and put independent thought back in to education here

_Kaiser_

Read this earlier, but the thing that jumped out most for me was:

A key challenge for Irish schools will be getting students to think for themselves, and develop a strong sense of right and wrong.

In a modern world where “Google knows everything”, he said the world will reward people for that they can do with what they know.

For example, while Ireland has a good track record on literacy in global studies such as the Pisa league tables of international educational achievement, he said this was only part of the picture.

“Just 15 per cent of Irish 15-year-olds can distinguish fact from opinion in a reliable way. So, you know, what value is literacy, if you can’t navigate ambiguity? If we can’t manage complexity?”

Only 15% can distinguish fact from opinion?! That's an extremely worrying statistic and highlights both why social media narratives have the influence they do, and why it's so dangerous and divisive.

We're breeding a nation of drones that will rely on their Twitter feeds to tell them what to think about something.

Eric Cartman

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Read this earlier, but the thing that jumped out most for me was:




Only 15% can distinguish fact from opinion?! That's an extremely worrying statistic and highlights both why social media narratives have the influence they do, and why it's so dangerous and divisive.

We're breeding a nation of drones that will rely on their Twitter feeds to tell them what to think about something.

explains why some parties wanted the voting age lowered to 16 anyway.

Notmything

Saw it first hand as a mature student in college, students straight out of school not able to critique or challenge lessons.

Lecturers would end up having to give them a step by step guide to writing an essay as the student was not able to comprehend what the essay was asking.

markodaly

Saw this earlier. We know that the system itself needs reforming but there are too many stakeholders to keep the status quo.
Is it true that Irish Schools have been closed more than anywhere else in the world?
That says a lot.

FintanMcluskey

A garage owner remarked this to me about apprentices recently.

He claims some aren’t able to figure problems out like before.

It’s more important to be able to learn than to be taught something and there is a difference between learning and being taught

DeadHand

The problem is even more fundamental than not being capable of critical thought (something that should be fostered mostly at third level anyway, emphasis on “should”), kids are getting to third level with feeble literacy skills.

Many aren’t equipped with the basics on arrival, I’ve heard this from several lecturers.

You would wonder what they are doing at secondary level.

Peter Flynt

markodaly wrote: »

Saw this earlier. We know that the system itself needs reforming but there are too many stakeholders to keep the status quo.
Is it true that Irish Schools have been closed more than anywhere else in the world?
That says a lot.

No, it's not true.

Clearly you're one of the persons (who cannot distinguish fact from fiction) that they were referring to.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

We also increasingly built 3rd level qualifications which encourage regurgitation of whatever the lecturer says or following flawed conclusions from data.

We need to go and put independent thought back in to education here

A long long time ago in Primary school:

My teacher: Right take out your Irish books
Me: I thought you said yesterday we'd be doing Nature today?
Teacher: You know what Thought did? Thought put a feather in the ground and thought a hen would grow.
My friend: So you don't support the idea of independent thought?

That pretty much sums up the primary curriculum in my primary days.

TomTomTim

Notmything wrote: »

Saw it first hand as a mature student in college, students straight out of school not able to critique or challenge lessons.

Lecturers would end up having to give them a step by step guide to writing an essay as the student was not able to comprehend what the essay was asking.

I remember reading a book called Letters to a Law Student, the author mentioned several times that students in the last few years often relied on emotionalism and not legal principles or precedents to make their judgments. Considering the hyper emotionalism of the modern world, it's no surprise. We'll see the true manifestation of this in 10 or 20 years when these students become judges; they'll likely be so bad that they'll make the current lot look like legal geniuses.

markodaly

Peter Flynt wrote: »

No, it's not true.

Clearly you're one of the persons (who cannot distinguish fact from fiction) that they were referring to.

Maybe it was in Europe then. I heard the point made on RTE radio the other day about Irish children missing more days in school than any other country.

By all means, if there is fact to prove this wrong, supply it.

Invidious

DeadHand wrote: »

The problem is even more fundamental than not being capable of critical thought (something that should be fostered mostly at third level anyway, emphasis on “should”), kids are getting to third level with feeble literacy skills.

Many aren’t equipped with the basics on arrival, I’ve heard this from several lecturers.

You would wonder what they are doing at secondary level.

One aspect of this is the evident weaknesses in the school system. Another is that it's an uphill battle for teachers when parents don't encourage children to read -- too much Xbox, Netflix, getting their own phones at the age of 8, etc.

Lillyfae

Invidious wrote: »

Some hard-hitting comments on the Irish school system from Andreas Schleicher, head of the OECD's education division.



He's completely right. We have a one-size-fits-all curriculum heavily oriented around learning off information for the purpose of passing exams, rather than teaching students to think creatively. But can reform happen? I don't see teachers eager to embrace change, and politicians seem happy enough with the status quo. "Thinking outside the box" has always been frowned upon in Ireland.

Cue burning effigies of Andreas Schleicher in front of INTO headquarters. You might be lynched for even starting this thread OP :eek:

Hellrazer

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

A garage owner remarked this to me about apprentices recently.

He claims some aren’t able to figure problems out like before.

It’s more important to be able to learn than to be taught something and there is a difference between leaning and being taught

Last year I was looking for an apprentice and I went through 8 young lads before i got one with a bit of initiative who was actually able to work something out on his own.
The other 7 were basically clones who I had to hand-hold through things as simple as emptying a bin or sweeping the floor.

A good few years ago I hired a lad to work on the service desk who had a degree in Motor Industry management or something like that.

That lad could not be let near customers. He was like a robot,like one of those tech support people that read from a script but cant think for themselves - no problem solving ability. I think he lasted about a month. Thing is he was more qualified than anyone in the garage but because he was literally sticking to what he was taught in a college environment and wouldnt adjust or change his mindset to allow for peoples nature he was never going to get anywhere.

Its scary whats coming down the road - these are our future leaders!!!!

Fritzbox

“Just 15 per cent of Irish 15-year-olds can distinguish fact from opinion in a reliable way.

So quite a high figure compared to other European countries, perhaps?

riffmongous

It's sad to read about. Whatever happened to this great land of independent thought that gave us an alternating 2 party government and that let the Catholic Church dictate social mores for decades.

markodaly

riffmongous wrote: »

It's sad to read about. Whatever happened to this great land of independent thought that gave us an alternating 2 party government and that let the Catholic Church dictate social mores for decades.

Odd segway, but isnt the point, that we are much freer and liberal yet we seems to be raising a bunch of clones and lemings?

If we look at NPHET's response to the pandemic, this is borne out. Copy other countries worst policies.

riffmongous

markodaly wrote: »

Odd segway, but isnt the point, that we are much freer and liberal yet we seems to be raising a bunch of clones and lemings?

When did we not have (mostly) a bunch of clones and lemmings?

osarusan

I'd hazard a guess that the anecdotes shared on this thread about those who have recently finished school or university could just as easily have been said about previous generations also.

It might be comforting to think the past was different, but I'm not sure there ever was a previous period in Irish education when those leaving school or university were, on average, more likely to be equipped with the skills to make them more autonomous or more critical thinkers.

Maybe it is the case that the Irish education system is reforming more slowly than others, I don't know. I do know that what was said about Japan in the article linked to in the OP is utter rubbish though.

timmyntc

riffmongous wrote: »

When did we not have (mostly) a bunch of clones and lemmings?

Exactly - from British rule to the Catholic church abuse, the majority in this country always just went along with things. No independent thought.

The few brilliant minds we produced were the exception to the rule.

Fritzbox

timmyntc wrote: »

Exactly - from British rule to the Catholic church abuse, the majority in this country always just went along with things. No independent thought.

The few brilliant minds we produced were the exception to the rule.

What sort of "independent thought were the citizenry of Germany, Austria, and a dozen other European countries displaying in the 1930s and forties?

screamer

I’ve a lot of experience in mentoring and training new hires, most straight out of college. Not all of them are lemmings, but I think a lot are. People may think that’s great, they just fit in, and they do, but unfortunately they adapt the same mannerisms of the team they join, so if the team is full of assholes, you get another one. Also, people who just fit in and aren’t capable of critical thinking will never challenge the status quo, never have an innovative idea or initiative. Perhaps it’s more reflective of the Irish culture as a whole, fit in, don’t stand out, don’t challenge or try to change things sure it’ll be grand. Right??

Teacher2020

To be fair, I think the curriculum has nothing to do with it.
We all went through the system - it's probably better now than it was when I went through it.
I don't know what is causing it but I think it stems back to play experiences not being what they should be for children. Many don't get the opportunities for imaginative, unsupervised play that we would have had when we were younger. We headed off for the day to the nearby forest or empty field. We entertained ourselves, we made up games and built huts and forts. We came home when we were hungry. We had to solve problems we encountered by ourselves. Most children don't get those experiences now and I think we underestimate the damage it does to children to have zero independence.

markodaly

riffmongous wrote: »

When did we not have (mostly) a bunch of clones and lemmings?

Well look at the posts above us, and peoples experience with new apprenticies.
It appears we are getting worse not better.

TomTomTim

TomTomTim wrote: »

I remember reading a book called Letters to a Law Student, the author mentioned several times that students in the last few years often relied on emotionalism and not legal principles or precedents to make their judgments. Considering the hyper emotionalism of the modern world, it's no surprise. We'll see the true manifestation of this in 10 or 20 years when these students become judges; they'll likely be so bad that they'll make the current lot look like legal geniuses.

Just look up stats for how judges treat cases through the day. How long it's been since they've eaten can be the difference between probation or a few years locked up.

Funny in a thread about separating fact from fiction we’ve all accepted the premise: That this guy’s opinion is correct.

All education ideologies have some kind of bias. To say that the 20th C didn’t provide a fairly good education system, is unproven. Nor has he convinced me that whatever system he is suggesting works. In fact there’s little on that except hand waving about automation and AI.

I get the impression that he wants more technical training, he does work for an economics organisation after all.

timmyntc

Fritzbox wrote: »

What sort of "independent thought were the citizenry of Germany, Austria, and a dozen other European countries displaying in the 1930s and forties?

Bringing up the Nazis to deflect from criticism of this country.
That my friends, is an example of an absence of independent thought.


You can't accept the fact that there was a massive absence of independent thought and critical thinking in our past? When people allowed the church to reign supreme?
Mother and baby homes, illegal adoptions, mass graves, child sex abuse - almost all of which in plain sight and nothing was said or done.

Who cares about other countries - we arent talking about Germany and Austria.

markodaly

Teacher2020 wrote: »

To be fair, I think the curriculum has nothing to do with it.
We all went through the system - it's probably better now than it was when I went through it.
I don't know what is causing it but I think it stems back to play experiences not being what they should be for children. Many don't get the opportunities for imaginative, unsupervised play that we would have had when we were younger. We headed off for the day to the nearby forest or empty field. We entertained ourselves, we made up games and built huts and forts. We came home when we were hungry. We had to solve problems we encountered by ourselves. Most children don't get those experiences now and I think we underestimate the damage it does to children to have zero independence.

You raise an excellent point.

The Unions bang on about Finland being the gold standard, yet they dont start school unti they are seven.

Well, what are they doing until then you may ask? Proper early childcare education, where play is the key stone. The idea is that children need to develop confidence, social skills and develop their cognitive skills together with their emotional skills. The ABC's and the like can then come after, but they do some of that as well but not in a proper class room.

The early education system should be starting at 2 or 3, with early childcare centres taking children from this age until the age of 7 and then passing them onto primary schools for more formal education.

Two or three years in primary school should be given over to EEC's and this would require a big change in primary education.... but the teachers would go balistic. They have always resisted these types of changes unless they were at the forefront of them and of course getting paid. It means handing over money to those pesky ECT types.

Early years education is not even under the remit of the Dept. of Education. Says it all.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

Well look at the posts above us, and peoples experience with new apprenticies.
It appears we are getting worse not better.

Which would indicate, if true, that we need to go back to what we had, not forward to some other educational disaster.

Fritzbox

timmyntc wrote: »

You can't accept the fact that there was a massive absence of independent thought and critical thinking in our past? When people allowed the church to reign supreme?

Sure

Mother and baby homes, illegal adoptions, mass graves, child sex abuse - almost all of which in plain sight and nothing was said or done.

But all of that was along time ago - around the same era that Europe was dominated by Nazi, Fascist and Communist regimes.

timmyntc

timmyntc wrote: »

Bringing up the Nazis to deflect from criticism of this country.
That my friends, is an example of an absence of independent thought.


You can't accept the fact that there was a massive absence of independent thought and critical thinking in our past? When people allowed the church to reign supreme?
Mother and baby homes, illegal adoptions, mass graves, child sex abuse - almost all of which in plain sight and nothing was said or done.

Who cares about other countries - we arent talking about Germany and Austria.

The 20th C had plenty of independent thinkers, creative geniuses and people who challenged the status quo.

Fritzbox

markodaly wrote: »

The Unions bang on about Finland being the gold standard, yet they dont start school unti they are seven.

But I would imagine that Finnish children spent many years in some form of nursery school, before they start formal education?

Fritzbox

Fritzbox wrote: »

Sure



But all of that was along time ago - around the same era that Europe was dominated by Nazi, Fascist and Communist regimes.

Also most people weren’t educated to leaving cert level. never mind degree level.

Samsonsmasher

This is a country that pretends it is Gaelic (The vast majority can't speak a word of Irish let alone hold down a basic conversation) Catholic (I can remember as soon as Bishop Casey was exposed the numbers at church plummeted overnight) and free (The blind obedience to political dynasties is coming home to roost as once again they lead to country to disaster).

Is it any wonder?

timmyntc

Fritzbox wrote: »

Sure



But all of that was along time ago - around the same era that Europe was dominated by Nazi, Fascist and Communist regimes.

And what? It's not a competition, the actions of other peoples hardly excuses our own.

Deleted User wrote: »

The 20th C had plenty of independent thinkers, creative geniuses and people who challenged the status quo.

Yes but they were the exception to the rule. The majority were not. The majority were and are all to happy to just go along with whatever theyre told. The path of least resistance.

markodaly

Fritzbox wrote: »

But I would imagine that Finnish children spent many years in some form of nursery school, before they start formal education?

Did you not read the rest of my post?

timmyntc

timmyntc wrote: »

And what? It's not a competition, the actions of other peoples hardly excuses our own.



Yes but they were the exception to the rule. The majority were not. The majority were and are all to happy to just go along with whatever theyre told. The path of least resistance.

Your reading of the 20C isn’t mine. I feel they had more geniuses, more independent thinking and far better universities.

However I’ll need to marshal more evidence on that.

Fritzbox

timmyntc wrote: »

And what? It's not a competition, the actions of other peoples hardly excuses our own.

When did I suggest anything of the sort?

The fact is, the Germans, Spanish, and maybe even the Russians have moved on from their history - and I'm pretty sure so have the Irish.

Fritzbox

markodaly wrote: »

Did you not read the rest of my post?

AAAH!! there it is!

beerguts

Would anyone agree that maybe we don't challenge our youth anymore that this is where our issues lie? Everything is handed to you and failure as in missing a deadline or completing a task is OK. If kids had some more pressure applied to them maybe they would be more able to adapt to a problem instead of being a deer in the headlights.
To be fair we probably won't solve this until we address the gender imbalance in our school system where there is no male influences because let's be honest most outside thinking and innovation comes from the masculine risk taking trait.
Now let some offending poster take issue to this view.

Pa ElGrande

Rather than the Irish Times opinions, lets see what the source says.

ENVISIONING THE FUTURE OF EDUCATION AND JOBS - Trends, data and drawings (OECD)


OECD Future of Education and Skills 2030

timmyntc

Deleted User wrote: »

Your reading of the 20C isn’t mine. I feel they had more geniuses, more independent thinking and far better universities.

However I’ll need to marshal more evidence on that.

The 20th C had less crap media, less noise, celebrity etc.

Nowadays we dont value geniuses outside a corporate setting. So they are there, and they are driving things forward - but dont get the recognition. On Universities yes I think they could have been better back then - dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge, whereas in the 21st century a University is a profit making degree mill.

timmyntc

Fritzbox wrote: »

When did I suggest anything of the sort?

The fact is, the Germans, Spanish, and maybe even the Russians have moved on from their history - and I'm pretty sure so have the Irish.

Why bring it up then?
If you dont have any proof about the Irish & their 'moving on' - dragging other nation's into it is of no relevance.

Fritzbox

timmyntc wrote: »

Why bring it up then?
If you dont have any proof about the Irish & their 'moving on' - dragging other nation's into it is of no relevance.

I have as much proof of the Irish moving on as other posters have that the Irish haven't moved on.

The thread is about Ireland's education system today - there was no need to discuss the social ills and problems the country suffered many years ago - which you happened to 'bring up'.

NSAman

OECD says something that most employers have seen coming for a long time.

Pa ElGrande

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

Rather than the Irish Times opinions, lets see what the source says.

ENVISIONING THE FUTURE OF EDUCATION AND JOBS - Trends, data and drawings (OECD)


OECD Future of Education and Skills 2030

Seems to be an entirely functional view of education as a preparation for jobs. As you might expect from an economics institution.

Jesus both reports are utter tripe.

timmyntc

Fritzbox wrote: »

I have as much proof of the Irish moving on as other posters have that the Irish haven't moved on.

The thread is about Ireland's education system today - there was no need to discuss the social ills and problems the country suffered many years ago - which you happened to 'bring up'.

So to conclude - you admit you have no evidence that Irish people are any more independent or critical thinkers than they were last century. Good. Thats settled then.

The data in the OECD report for one would lend credence to the idea that Irish people still are not great critical thinkers in the majority.

Fritzbox

timmyntc wrote: »

So to conclude - you admit you have no evidence that Irish people are any more independent or critical thinkers than they were last century. Good. Thats settled then.

You certainly have not brought any evidence to prove that Irish people are less critical thinkers today than in earlier years - where's your proof?

The data in the OECD report for one would lend credence to the idea that Irish people still are not great critical thinkers in the majority.

Where does the OECD report say that? Have you read it yet?

I've already had a quick peek.

SaltyJohn