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Ireland vs England match thread, Sat 20th March 4:45pm

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Comments

  • Subscribers Posts: 40,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    GreeBo wrote: »

    That's *exactly* the point.:confused:

    the point is it isnt club rugby ???? WTAF

    youre all over the place here


  • Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Tommybojangles


    I think we can all agree that ROG had a better succession plan than Sexton


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,985 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    the point is it isnt club rugby ???? WTAF

    youre all over the place here

    The point is that we cannot go out and purchase someone to replace Sexton.
    Whether we like it or not we are going to be left picking from them guys who we don't think are good enough, the only difference being that at least with my approach they will actually have experience.

    Your alternative is what exactly? Hope Joey can stop getting injured? Who is his backup on the bench and what experience will they have come the WC?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,179 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    GreeBo wrote: »
    That's exactly the point, the reality is that we are going to have to rely on one of the deemed "not good enough" players for the world cup, so I'd rather they have some experience before that point. They may not be as good as the incumbent, but they are the next inline who are actually available.

    No, that is not the reality. The reality is that someone is likely to completely leapfrog those players in the next 2 years because they are not good enough. They are not good enough now and they will not be good enough if they start every single game between now and the next world cup.

    Do you think all of the other new players, of which there are many, would benefit from playing with a substandard 10 when a better one is available?
    GreeBo wrote: »
    Feel free to correct my interpretation so.
    Whats your succession plan?

    When someone is better or seems likely to be able to develop into being better than you play them. In this case that means giving Carbery gametime when he is back and easing HByrne into the squad - both of which are being done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,985 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    No, that is not the reality. The reality is that someone is likely to completely leapfrog those players in the next 2 years because they are not good enough. They are not good enough now and they will not be good enough if they start every single game between now and the next world cup.

    I'm not sure that is the reality at all....where have these players been for the last 10 years?
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Do you think all of the other new players, of which there are many, would benefit from playing with a substandard 10 when a better one is available?
    Thats a fair point, but this better ten is in the ultimate twilight of his career, it does the team no favours to suddenly land them with an inexperienced 10 when Sexton is no longer available, which could realistically happen at any time.

    Podge_irl wrote: »
    When someone is better or seems likely to be able to develop into being better than you play them. In this case that means giving Carbery gametime when he is back and easing HByrne into the squad - both of which are being done.

    When you have a choice you play the better guy, but when the guy you keep playing is about to retire you need to accept this and focus on the next guy.
    There have to be severe doubts about the likelihood of Carbery staying fit, based on his injury history, then what, over to you Byrne, Healy, Frawley or Crowley ?

    If these are the next thing then get them in there now, so they have a chance to develop, otherwise you have to use the like of Burns. Hoping that Carbery and Sexton survive just isnt a sensible plan imo.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Very sorry to hear that the decision has been made online that Joey Carberry’s international career is doomed


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,985 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Very sorry to hear that the decision has been made online that Joey Carberry’s international career is doomed

    How many starts at 10 does he have?
    How many caps does he have in positions other than OH?
    How many games has he missed due to injury?

    I'm not knocking the guy, I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation.

    We've basically had 4 outhalves in nearly 30 years, Elwood, Humphries, O'Gara & Sexton, its not exactly an assembly line, so to rely on someone else just appearing seems naive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,670 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    We should have a group of players between 25-28 threatening Sexton right now.

    Jonny Holland, Paddy Jackson, and Joey Carbery were these players. They aren't there for different reasons. The IRFU have actually been trying to improve this. They recruited Billy Burns for Ulster and he has also been given caps. Doesn't mean he is good enough. Ross Byrne has caps but again he doesn't seem good enough. The fact that we don't have the players right not to displace Sexton is a problem. But we've seen when Sexton isn't there the team plays worse. Blooding players in other positions benefit from having sexton there.

    We are all hoping that Carbery stays fit and that Harry Bryne and Crowley continue on in their trajectory in the next 2 years and if that happens we have three quality outhalfs.

    if its a year before the world cup and they haven't improved then we are in trouble. But Sexton has only been given a one year extension so i suspect that another player will get a lot of minutes in the six nations 2023.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    GreeBo wrote: »
    How many starts at 10 does he have?
    How many caps does he have in positions other than OH?
    How many games has he missed due to injury?

    I'm not knocking the guy, I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation.

    We've basically had 4 outhalves in nearly 30 years, Elwood, Humphries, O'Gara & Sexton, its not exactly an assembly line, so to rely on someone else just appearing seems naive.

    Over his career?

    I have no idea at all. But I know I’ve seen him impress multiple times at 10. And not everyone who goes through extended periods of injury end up retiring. Rob Kearney was a great example.


    And yes, you’re absolutely right that we rarely used to produce 10s. Just as we used to have awful issues producing tightheads. So why you think we can fix that by just giving experience to guys who haven’t been identified as having the potential to be good enough is beyond me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,985 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    But Sexton has only been given a one year extension so i suspect that another player will get a lot of minutes in the six nations 2023.

    Isn't that too late though? 5 games isnt really going to turn some young fella we dont know much about into the leader on the pitch.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,670 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Isn't that too late though? 5 games isnt really going to turn some young fella we dont know much about into the leader on the pitch.

    But they'll have minutes at their clubs as well. They'll have champions cup games. Throwing a player in before they are ready could also harm them.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    GreeBo wrote: »
    How many starts at 10 does he have?
    How many caps does he have in positions other than OH?
    How many games has he missed due to injury?

    I'm not knocking the guy, I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation.

    We've basically had 4 outhalves in nearly 30 years, Elwood, Humphries, O'Gara & Sexton, its not exactly an assembly line, so to rely on someone else just appearing seems naive.

    Provincially, he's had 26 starts at 10 and 15 at FB. He's had an additional 6 starts at 10 for Ireland. And given what we've seem from him in that time, he clearly seems a level above what the other Sexton-alternatives offer.

    But I think it's telling that this conversation has moved from initially you saying we were doing no groundwork for the RWC to just focusing on Sexton's replacement.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,179 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    GreeBo wrote: »
    When you have a choice you play the better guy, but when the guy you keep playing is about to retire you need to accept this and focus on the next guy.
    There have to be severe doubts about the likelihood of Carbery staying fit, based on his injury history, then what, over to you Byrne, Healy, Frawley or Crowley ?

    The management clearly do not think RB or BB are "the next guy" and I agree with them.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I'm not sure that is the reality at all....where have these players been for the last 10 years?

    Primary school, to start with


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,985 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Primary school, to start with

    I know you are just trying to be clever and all, but where are all the players who were in primary school 20 years ago hiding for the last 10 years? Why has no one managed to knock an old fella off his perch?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,985 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    The management clearly do not think RB or BB are "the next guy" and I agree with them.

    Great, so who is?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,006 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Sexton is playing well right now. Nobody else is at his level. It makes no sense to sit Sexton and play RB, who's just not at that level. Burns on the bench is a good move, as I believe he's a higher ceiling than RB. Burns may get up to the standard required or he may become a reliable bench option. Carberry will come right back in when he has a run of games and his form is good. Other than that, we will wait and see for the younger lads.
    The pecking order will be clearer in a year or so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭Smee_Again


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I know you are just trying to be clever and all, but where are all the players who were in primary school 20 years ago hiding for the last 10 years? Why has no one managed to knock an old fella off his perch?

    You're asking why no one has been able to take the position from possibly the greatest 10 that Ireland have produced?

    Is that a serious question?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,985 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    aloooof wrote: »
    Provincially, he's had 26 starts at 10 and 15 at FB. He's had an additional 6 starts at 10 for Ireland. And given what we've seem from him in that time, he clearly seems a level above what the other Sexton-alternatives offer.
    So 6 starts, just over 1 a year since he made his debut and I believe a number of them were against significantly lower standard of opposition, USA, Japan, Samoa etc?

    Note that i'm not saying he isnt the next best, I'm saying he hasnt and probably wont be available, he has already missed a bunch of opportunities to gain experience running the national team. Hell we have seen from the other guys that provincial excellence doesnt automatically lead to the same at national level.

    aloooof wrote: »
    But I think it's telling that this conversation has moved from initially you saying we were doing no groundwork for the RWC to just focusing on Sexton's replacement.

    I've clearly been talking about the positions where we are relying on much older players?:confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,985 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Smee_Again wrote: »
    You're asking why no one has been able to take the position from possibly the greatest 10 that Ireland have produced?

    Is that a serious question?

    No, I'm asking why we are still looking to rely on him when he is 38.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    GreeBo wrote: »
    No, I'm asking why we are still looking to rely on him when he is 38.

    He’s 35


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,985 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    He’s 35

    What will he be at the next world cup?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    GreeBo wrote: »
    What will he be at the next world cup?

    Behind Carbery.


  • Administrators Posts: 53,275 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    As this has now veered away from discussing the game the thread is closed.

    Cards have been handed out, a few can consider themselves lucky.

    If it spills into other threads more cards will be handed out.


This discussion has been closed.
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