Kodiaq v Tiguan v Tarraco - buying new

younggalway

Well folks, another thread from me looking for some buying advice for my mother's new car. Some of you may have seen me on other threads here but though might as well start a new one to get some traction.

Situation is:
She had intended on buying 2018 Audi Q5/ Volvo XC60 and having one imported from the UK. Buying with the Disabled passengers scheme so have VAT/VRT relied up to 16k. The figures just didn't add up buying a 3 year old car with the new import tax on top so she has decided to go new altogether. First time for her ever having a new car so want to make sure we get it right.

Current contenders are:
1. VW Tiguan R-Line 2.0 Diesel with DSG
2. Skoda Kodiaq Sportline 2.0 Diesel with DSG
3. Seat Tarraco FR 2.0 Diesel with DSG
4. Hyundai Tucson Executive Plus (1.6 Diesel Mild Hybrid with DCT)

Before anyone jumps in, yes the Tiguan/ Tucson are smaller but there is no requirement for this size car at all but she wants a Diesel/Auto and to sit up high so bit of a mixed bag and this will be more of a heart than head purchase.

Would love to get some input on opinions of any of these models in terms of:
- Price/Discounts (Will be straight deal and won't be financing with dealer)
- Depreciation in 2/3 years and which will be the least painful
- What they are like to live with daily

I'm leaning towards the Tiguan even though I think the pricing is fairly on the high side. She doesn't like the Ateca/Karoq and would very much prefer the 2.0tdi instead of the 1.6 in the Tucson but is willing to consider it because she likes the rest of it. I appreciate it is hard to find logic here but just work with me

Any and all advice welcome, particularly from any owners on here that wouldn't mind sharing the deal they got in PM. Thanks

Matthewjohn

I'd also take a look at an Audi Q3 if she hasn't already, similar to the Tiguan, decent value considering the amount of spec and likely to hold its value very well.

Not sure what see needs in terms of equipment, but a new XC60 starts at about the same price as the Tiguan R-Line as far as I know, so that might be another way to go.

younggalway

Matthewjohn wrote: »

I'd also take a look at an Audi Q3 if she hasn't already, similar to the Tiguan, decent value considering the amount of spec and likely to hold its value very well.

Not sure what see needs in terms of equipment, but a new XC60 starts at about the same price as the Tiguan R-Line as far as I know, so that might be another way to go.

Cheers for that, hadn't really considered them new. Would the Q3 be similar size to the Tiguan? I always assumed they were quite small but I suppose the Q5 is probably that bit larger. Had a quick look on the Volvo configurator there, Momentum spec seems to creep up around 53/54k. I was hoping to keep to around 45/46 after a strong discount but will definitely get her to look at them all and see. The Q3 and XC60 are not new models so might be able to negotiate for something in stock

freddieot

I have the Kodiaq Style 4x4 190 Auto version with a few extras for nearly 2 years and love it. Last car was an X5 so I do like my comfort as well.

My impressions so far :-

Real easy to drive. I've had Sante Fe, Sorento, Grand Vitara and X5 and this is the best all round SUV I've had for day to day driving IMO.
Plenty of power (150 version is no slouch either by the way).
Very comfortable and well equipped.
Cost was 54k including several extras including BLIS, Memory Seat, Digital Cockpit, alarm, black paint, upgraded wheels, heated s wheel, extra 2 years warranty, off-road pack, self-park, surround cameras etc.

To consider if you go for the Sportline :-
Sportline is not actually the top spec - it has different extras including part cloth leather sports seats. I found these less comfortable (for me) as I have some hip issues. Make sure your Mom tries them out first.

Don't rule out the new Kia Sorento Hybrid. Worth a look if she is buying new. It is bigger and the spec is is very very good.

Terraco is also great value but again the extras \ spec is different than the Skoda offering so compare both carefully. I personallly found the Skoda was more suited to what I want but it's an individual choice.

cpoh1

Q3 smaller than the Tiguan and Tucson surely. Q5 is the equivalent size/market comparing these.

Have a look at the Skoda Karoq also if ride height and not space is the key factor

freddieot

cpoh1 wrote: »

Q3 smaller than the Tiguan and Tucson surely. Q5 is the equivalent size/market comparing these.

Have a look at the Skoda Karoq also if ride height and not space is the key factor

Q3 is much smaller. However, the Tiguan is a lot smaller than an Q5 which is not a small vehicle by any standards. It is fairly high which make sit look bigger overall.

The different shapes of these cars can hide the fact that they are different sizes. I have a few size comparisons from an exercise I did before buying which might help.

Tiguan (the larger All Space not the standard model)
L 4701 W 1839 H 1674
Kodiaq
L 4706 W 1882 H 1655
BMW X3 (New)
L 4708 W 1891 H 1676
Peugeot 5008 (2019 Mod)
L 4641 H 1844 H 1646

nsnoefc1878

Matthewjohn wrote: »

I'd also take a look at an Audi Q3 if she hasn't already, similar to the Tiguan, decent value considering the amount of spec and likely to hold its value very well.

Not sure what see needs in terms of equipment, but a new XC60 starts at about the same price as the Tiguan R-Line as far as I know, so that might be another way to go.

A fair bit smaller boot than a tiguan id say.

nsnoefc1878

freddieot wrote: »

I have the Kodiaq Style 4x4 190 Auto version with a few extras for nearly 2 years and love it. Last car was an X5 so I do like my comfort as well.

My impressions so far :-

Real easy to drive. I've had Sante Fe, Sorento, Grand Vitara and X5 and this is the best all round SUV I've had for day to day driving IMO.
Plenty of power (150 version is no slouch either by the way).
Very comfortable and well equipped.
Cost was 54k including several extras including BLIS, Memory Seat, Digital Cockpit, alarm, black paint, upgraded wheels, heated s wheel, extra 2 years warranty, off-road pack, self-park, surround cameras etc.

To consider if you go for the Sportline :-
Sportline is not actually the top spec - it has different extras including part cloth leather sports seats. I found these less comfortable (for me) as I have some hip issues. Make sure your Mom tries them out first.

Don't rule out the new Kia Sorento Hybrid. Worth a look if she is buying new. It is bigger and the spec is is very very good.

Terraco is also great value but again the extras \ spec is different than the Skoda offering so compare both carefully. I personallly found the Skoda was more suited to what I want but it's an individual choice.

Sounds like a nice bus. Did you get a pan roof?
I was seriosuly considering one last summer, ended up with a volvo v90 cc, which is a lovely car and very well specced, but I kinda regret not going for something taller as the boot in the volvo is a bit of a let down, my two dogs are in it often and to be honest its not great for them, the extra height in an suv would have been better.
There is a meteor grey Kodiaq sportlinearound where I live and it looks fantastic. That colour really suits it.
If you are ever looking to sell yours let me know!

Matthewjohn

younggalway wrote: »

Cheers for that, hadn't really considered them new. Would the Q3 be similar size to the Tiguan? I always assumed they were quite small but I suppose the Q5 is probably that bit larger. Had a quick look on the Volvo configurator there, Momentum spec seems to creep up around 53/54k. I was hoping to keep to around 45/46 after a strong discount but will definitely get her to look at them all and see. The Q3 and XC60 are not new models so might be able to negotiate for something in stock

As others have said the Q3 is smaller the standard Tiguan but slightly larger than a Karoq or Ateca. If she had been looking at those and doesn’t need a huge amount of space I think it is worth a look. As far as I know the 2.0 TDI comes in auto as standard with them.

freddieot

nsnoefc1878 wrote: »

Sounds like a nice bus. Did you get a pan roof?
I was seriosuly considering one last summer, ended up with a volvo v90 cc, which is a lovely car and very well specced, but I kinda regret not going for something taller as the boot in the volvo is a bit of a let down, my two dogs are in it often and to be honest its not great for them, the extra height in an suv would have been better.
There is a meteor grey Kodiaq sportlinearound where I live and it looks fantastic. That colour really suits it.
If you are ever looking to sell yours let me know!

No pan roof. I had electric ones in several vehicles before including both Sorentos and I found that i only used them once once or twice. so for me they would be nice to haves but I would not pay for them when I could spec other features. The all round cameras for example have paid for themselves already as I've avoided scraping the black \ grey wheels against the kerb when parking several times in tight spots. They let you see a view of the each wheel as it approaches a kerb. Also saved the grass next to the drive.

The grey is a great colour but I prefer the black one I have especially with the black leather interior and the black \ grey 19" wheels.

I doubt I will be selling her for a while. Thanks to the lockdown only 15k in almost 2 years.

I recommend one of these to the OP. Definitely a comfortable bus and although being a Skoda it should be bullet proof, the five year warrantly helps as well (think it cost me 200 extra).

The Volvo is a great machine but I always go now for an SUV and AWD. Have done since 2002. It's the one car in the family so a do all machine and I also do some shooting as well so I need space for lots of kit etc. Ideal for your dogs. That's a consideration here too as we are between dogs at the moment.

younggalway

freddieot wrote: »

I have the Kodiaq Style 4x4 190 Auto version with a few extras for nearly 2 years and love it. Last car was an X5 so I do like my comfort as well.

My impressions so far :-

Real easy to drive. I've had Sante Fe, Sorento, Grand Vitara and X5 and this is the best all round SUV I've had for day to day driving IMO.
Plenty of power (150 version is no slouch either by the way).
Very comfortable and well equipped.
Cost was 54k including several extras including BLIS, Memory Seat, Digital Cockpit, alarm, black paint, upgraded wheels, heated s wheel, extra 2 years warranty, off-road pack, self-park, surround cameras etc.

To consider if you go for the Sportline :-
Sportline is not actually the top spec - it has different extras including part cloth leather sports seats. I found these less comfortable (for me) as I have some hip issues. Make sure your Mom tries them out first.

Don't rule out the new Kia Sorento Hybrid. Worth a look if she is buying new. It is bigger and the spec is is very very good.

Terraco is also great value but again the extras \ spec is different than the Skoda offering so compare both carefully. I personallly found the Skoda was more suited to what I want but it's an individual choice.

Sounds like a lovely machine, you went to town with the extras fair play. Do you remember what the list price was at the time when you got it for 54k? Also very impressed you rank it up there with an X5 considering the price difference.

nsnoefc1878

freddieot wrote: »

No pan roof. I had electric ones in several vehicles before including both Sorentos and I found that i only used them once once or twice. so for me they would be nice to haves but I would not pay for them when I could spec other features. The all round cameras for example have paid for themselves already as I've avoided scraping the black \ grey wheels against the kerb when parking several times in tight spots. They let you see a view of the each wheel as it approaches a kerb. Also saved the grass next to the drive.

The grey is a great colour but I prefer the black one I have especially with the black leather interior and the black \ grey 19" wheels.

I doubt I will be selling her for a while. Thanks to the lockdown only 15k in almost 2 years.

I recommend one of these to the OP. Definitely a comfortable bus and although being a Skoda it should be bullet proof, the five year warrantly helps as well (think it cost me 200 extra).

The Volvo is a great machine but I always go now for an SUV and AWD. Have done since 2002. It's the one car in the family so a do all machine and I also do some shooting as well so I need space for lots of kit etc. Ideal for your dogs. That's a consideration here too as we are between dogs at the moment.

Thanks for the info.
I think I'll deffo go suv/jeep next time around, love the luxury of the Volvo but would prefer a bigger boot.
The Volvo is awd, not really had much need for it yet but the hope is to move somewhere quite rural dinner or later so bought it with that in mind.

freddieot

younggalway wrote: »

Sounds like a lovely machine, you went to town with the extras fair play. Do you remember what the list price was at the time when you got it for 54k? Also very impressed you rank it up there with an X5 considering the price difference.

Yes, moving from the X5 I wanted a high level of comfort but more importantly far better relaibity and value. I had specced a new X3 as it is about the same size but with more or less the equal spec is was coming in about 83k of the MSport X version. A no brainer really ! Personally I would never buy any BMW again. I''ve posted about my troubles with a 151 X5 I had from new so won't go over it again. Have a read if you want more of the background.

I can't find the original invoice for the Kodiaq to show the base price but you can easily configure the Skodas on-line. I see my one has jumped a bit in cost for the Style but it now has 200bhp. TBH if I was buying brand new at this point I'd give it a miss as it also now has €600 road tax or pick the 150bhp. No doubt a hybrid is in the plans as well.

nsnoefc1878

freddieot wrote: »

Yes, moving from the X5 I wanted a high level of comfort but more importantly far better relaibity and value. I had specced a new X3 as it is about the same size but with more or less the equal spec is was coming in about 83k of the MSport X version. A no brainer really ! Personally I would never buy any BMW again. I''ve posted about my troubles with a 151 X5 I had from new so won't go over it again. Have a read if you want more of the background.

I can't find the original invoice for the Kodiaq to show the base price but you can easily configure the Skodas on-line. I see my one has jumped a bit in cost for the Style but it now has 200bhp. TBH if I was buying brand new at this point I'd give it a miss as it also now has €600 road tax or pick the 150bhp. No doubt a hybrid is in the plans as well.

I'd guess a new Kodiaq cant be far away? This one seems to be around a while.

colm_mcm

It’s getting a very mild facelift this year.

nsnoefc1878

colm_mcm wrote: »

It’s getting a very mild facelift this year.

I saw that. So probably another year or two til a completely new model.

colm_mcm

Yeah, VW have quite a long product cycle. 7 years or more in a lot of cases.

younggalway

colm_mcm wrote: »

It’s getting a very mild facelift this year.

I didn't realise this, just had a look there. I think I would pxssed off buying one now if the facelift was around the corner, unless it was very mild. Then again it could be a good negotiating point for the current one.

younggalway

Also, what do people think of buying end of March/start of April as opposed to holding out for 212 reg? I feel like with the change of reg every 6 months its not as big of a deal compared to buying something late in the year back when the plates weren't split. Would it be foolish to not hold out for July ?

whats_my_name

Usually when there is a face-lift around the corner they will add a few extras as standard without any price increase as an added incentive to buy. If your Mam is looking to buy a Kodiaq you are probably talking June/July for factory order, possibly longer if she wants a sportline as there are Covid related delays with suppliers. There is very limited supply of Kodiaqs in the country at the minute if she wanted to go now on the back of the 0% finance offered on them before Christmas but if she isn't fussed on colours/extras she might get one somewhere.

nsnoefc1878

younggalway wrote: »

Also, what do people think of buying end of March/start of April as opposed to holding out for 212 reg? I feel like with the change of reg every 6 months its not as big of a deal compared to buying something late in the year back when the plates weren't split. Would it be foolish to not hold out for July ?

Given the cycle is only 6 months, I have no idea why people obsess over this? You could be saying this forever and never buy anything.
When you need to change or theres a good deal there, buy. Forget this reg plate stuff.

the kelt

Funnily enough i went through the same dilemma last year at this exact time.

Its really a personal choice. They are all good cars.

For me the Sportline Kodiaq was the best looking of the three but the added price was a turn off. In terms of standard spec i always saw the Tarraco as a better looking car than the basic Kodiaq.

We decided to rule out the Tiguan early on, the All Space was too expensive and we decided to go with a 7 seater. We had found ourselves at certain stages taking kids home with us for play dates after our kids activities and needing 2 cars so with a 7 seater it would get used (little did we know we would be locked up this long with no bloody activities)

So it came down to the Tarraco and the Kodiaq and it simply came down to the trade in and the dealers.

Seat sales man offered me a good trade in and there was some bargaining with him. The Skoda sales man treated me like an inconvenience with "this is the offer take it or leave it and leave me alone approach"

We have the Tarraco a year now and have to say we are very happy with it, cant fault it at all. Had it in for a service just last week and seen the new FR Tarraco in the showroom and have to say its a nice looking machine.

nsnoefc1878

the kelt wrote: »

Funnily enough i went through the same dilemma last year at this exact time.

Its really a personal choice. They are all good cars.

For me the Sportline Kodiaq was the best looking of the three but the added price was a turn off. In terms of standard spec i always saw the Tarraco as a better looking car than the basic Kodiaq.

We decided to rule out the Tiguan early on, the All Space was too expensive and we decided to go with a 7 seater. We had found ourselves at certain stages taking kids home with us for play dates after our kids activities and needing 2 cars so with a 7 seater it would get used (little did we know we would be locked up this long with no bloody activities)

So it came down to the Tarraco and the Kodiaq and it simply came down to the trade in and the dealers.

Seat sales man offered me a good trade in and there was some bargaining with him. The Skoda sales man treated me like an inconvenience with "this is the offer take it or leave it and leave me alone approach"

We have the Tarraco a year now and have to say we are very happy with it, cant fault it at all. Had it in for a service just last week and seen the new FR Tarraco in the showroom and have to say its a nice looking machine.

Having enquired in a few skoda dealerships, that doesnt surprise me one bit, found them highly arrogant and like dodgy backstreet car dealers, fake tan and shiny suits.

freddieot

nsnoefc1878 wrote: »

Having enquired in a few skoda dealerships, that doesnt surprise me one bit, found them highly arrogant and like dodgy backstreet car dealers, fake tan and shiny suits.

In fairness it's not just Skoda Dealers where that can happen. I'm still waiting on a call back from a VW Dealer and a Peugeot Dealer, both of whom seemed uninterested to talk to me last time. Perhaps not agreeing to buy 2 minutes after meeting them was what put them off. Went to Pilsen Skoda in Ballymount and was treated completely the opposite, as you would reasonably expect.

Personally, I would not buy a car in a shi*h*le but I don't care what type of suit the salesman wears or how nice the cream buns and coffee are while I watch Sky News on their TV while waiting to shake hands with my new best mate the Salesman. It's all down to price and after sales !

Casati

Seems to be a lot of pre reg Tarraco advertised now so you’d imagine a decent deal might be available. Presume your mother can buy and pre reg and still get VAT off and VRT deducted?

If she didn’t need to extra space I’d go with the five seater Tiguan as it’s just been facelifted and probably will have the best resale

R.O.R

Casati wrote: »

Seems to be a lot of pre reg Tarraco advertised now so you’d imagine a decent deal might be available. Presume your mother can buy and pre reg and still get VAT off and VRT deducted?

Probably won't be able to reclaim VAT/VRT on a pre-reg. All pre-reg's are done on the margin scheme as it's more profitable for the dealer to do it that way rather than the VAT scheme.

Only cars registered on the VAT scheme will be sold with a VAT invoice.

The Disabled scheme may be different, but I doubt it will be.


Personally, out of the 3 I'd go for the Tarraco. Best looking in my opinion between the Allspace, Kodiaq and Tarraco and whenever I run the lease figures on the 3, the Tarraco comes out cheapest. Lowest resale value, but SEAT have more margin to play with off the retail price.

There's also at lease 4 FR DSG 2.0Tdi models available from stock.

There's a decent selection of Tiguan Allspace R-Line models in the country too, and it seems to be a fairly even split between 1.5Tsi and 2.0Tdi with most of them being DSG.

Kodiaq Sportline is going to take a while as mentioned previously - delays on all Skoda Sportline models, but may be a Style around somewhere, which I think is a better option than the Sportline.

nsnoefc1878

R.O.R wrote: »

Probably won't be able to reclaim VAT/VRT on a pre-reg. All pre-reg's are done on the margin scheme as it's more profitable for the dealer to do it that way rather than the VAT scheme.

Only cars registered on the VAT scheme will be sold with a VAT invoice.

The Disabled scheme may be different, but I doubt it will be.


Personally, out of the 3 I'd go for the Tarraco. Best looking in my opinion between the Allspace, Kodiaq and Tarraco and whenever I run the lease figures on the 3, the Tarraco comes out cheapest. Lowest resale value, but SEAT have more margin to play with off the retail price.

There's also at lease 4 FR DSG 2.0Tdi models available from stock.

There's a decent selection of Tiguan Allspace R-Line models in the country too, and it seems to be a fairly even split between 1.5Tsi and 2.0Tdi with most of them being DSG.

Kodiaq Sportline is going to take a while as mentioned previously - delays on all Skoda Sportline models, but may be a Style around somewhere, which I think is a better option than the Sportline.

I'm not a huge fan of the sportline seats in the kodiaq, much prefer full leather (tho I doubt any of the skoda trims have proper, authentic leather).
But the black grill and trim really suit the kodiaq, the chrome makes it look a bit dated for me.
Agree about the Tarraco, I think Seat have the edge in the looks department here.

Casati

R.O.R wrote: »

Probably won't be able to reclaim VAT/VRT on a pre-reg. All pre-reg's are done on the margin scheme as it's more profitable for the dealer to do it that way rather than the VAT scheme.

Only cars registered on the VAT scheme will be sold with a VAT invoice.

The Disabled scheme may be different, but I doubt it will be.
.

They have to be VAT qualifying for disabled scheme to work so that means buying new is the only option for OP. Presumably ex lease cars are sold with a VAT invoice but most of these cars would be 3 years old or more

younggalway

Casati wrote: »

They have to be VAT qualifying for disabled scheme to work so that means buying new is the only option for OP. Presumably ex lease cars are sold with a VAT invoice but most of these cars would be 3 years old or more

Yeah it will have to be unregistered unfortunately, as you say buying ex-lease from UK was the plan originally but from the UK but the figures just don't add up with the customs duty.

younggalway

the kelt wrote: »

Funnily enough i went through the same dilemma last year at this exact time.

Its really a personal choice. They are all good cars.

For me the Sportline Kodiaq was the best looking of the three but the added price was a turn off. In terms of standard spec i always saw the Tarraco as a better looking car than the basic Kodiaq.

We decided to rule out the Tiguan early on, the All Space was too expensive and we decided to go with a 7 seater. We had found ourselves at certain stages taking kids home with us for play dates after our kids activities and needing 2 cars so with a 7 seater it would get used (little did we know we would be locked up this long with no bloody activities)

So it came down to the Tarraco and the Kodiaq and it simply came down to the trade in and the dealers.

Seat sales man offered me a good trade in and there was some bargaining with him. The Skoda sales man treated me like an inconvenience with "this is the offer take it or leave it and leave me alone approach"

We have the Tarraco a year now and have to say we are very happy with it, cant fault it at all. Had it in for a service just last week and seen the new FR Tarraco in the showroom and have to say its a nice looking machine.

Disapointing to hear about the poor Skoda dealer experience, although as mentioned this can probably happen anywhere. I'm hoping she gets time this weekend to look at all the options so I can start getting onto the dealers in the next week or two to secure a deal. I've read a lot on UK forums about lads sending emails to a bunch of dealers and asking for best price in a case where you are ready to put down a deposit that day. I'm just conscious that might not work as well in Ireland and emails probably often get ignored.

The list has not changed slightly so looking at Tiguan R-Line (5 Seat), Kodiaq Style (I like the sportline but she would prefer the beige leather), Q3 SE with comfort pack and going to chance looking at an XC60 despite it being a good bit over budget. Bit of a dreamer maneouvre but they might have a bit of room to move on price since the XC60 isn't quite the volume seller like the others? Or else I'm just telling myself this as I like the look of them . To be fair I think she would like any of them so it will probably come down to price and stock availability.

nsnoefc1878

younggalway wrote: »

Disapointing to hear about the poor Skoda dealer experience, although as mentioned this can probably happen anywhere. I'm hoping she gets time this weekend to look at all the options so I can start getting onto the dealers in the next week or two to secure a deal. I've read a lot on UK forums about lads sending emails to a bunch of dealers and asking for best price in a case where you are ready to put down a deposit that day. I'm just conscious that might not work as well in Ireland and emails probably often get ignored.

The list has not changed slightly so looking at Tiguan R-Line (5 Seat), Kodiaq Style (I like the sportline but she would prefer the beige leather), Q3 SE with comfort pack and going to chance looking at an XC60 despite it being a good bit over budget. Bit of a dreamer maneouvre but they might have a bit of room to move on price since the XC60 isn't quite the volume seller like the others? Or else I'm just telling myself this as I like the look of them . To be fair I think she would like any of them so it will probably come down to price and stock availability.

I dont think theyve any trouble selling xc60s so wouldnt fancy your chances.

R.O.R

The price on the XC60 Momentum FWD is quite a bit below where it should be, just to get it on the price list at that price point.

Volvo have only managed to get it to that level by really cutting dealer margin to bare minimum, so you are unlikely to get any discount off the list price.

Might be worth looking at Carnext (Leaseplan) or ALD Carmarket to see if there is anything suitable as they all be VAT qualifying sales and sometimes vehicles come back earlier than they are due to, so not all are 3 years old or more, but most will be.

Casati

R.O.R wrote: »

The price on the XC60 Momentum FWD is quite a bit below where it should be, just to get it on the price list at that price point.

Volvo have only managed to get it to that level by really cutting dealer margin to bare minimum, so you are unlikely to get any discount off the list price.

Might be worth looking at Carnext (Leaseplan) or ALD Carmarket to see if there is anything suitable as they all be VAT qualifying sales and sometimes vehicles come back earlier than they are due to, so not all are 3 years old or more, but most will be.

Do you know if you can claim residual vrt with the primary medical certificate?