Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email Niamh on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
New AMA with a US police officer (he's back!). You can ask your questions here

Mercedes-Benz C-Class PHEV

  • 23-02-2021 6:49pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap


    New Merc C-class is released today and nobody is interested.

    800v and 5 minutes for 100km range moves the market on. Other manufacturers just can't ignore that. It is harder to justify an Tesla model X or unknown Chinese quantities against this car in the U.S.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,665 ✭✭✭✭ JPA


    haphaphap wrote: »
    New Merc C-class is released today and nobody is interested.

    800v and 5 minutes for 100km range moves the market on. Other manufacturers just can't ignore that. It is harder to justify an Tesla model X or unknown Chinese quantities against this car in the U.S.

    Start a thread.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,862 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    JPA wrote: »
    Start a thread.

    It has a dinosaur juice engine from the 20th century. Meh. Don't bother with that thread :p

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,209 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    haphaphap wrote: »
    New Merc C-class is released today and nobody is interested.

    800v and 5 minutes for 100km range moves the market on. Other manufacturers just can't ignore that. It is harder to justify an Tesla model X or unknown Chinese quantities against this car in the U.S.
    unkel wrote: »
    It has a dinosaur juice engine from the 20th century. Meh. Don't bother with that thread :p

    Thats what I thought too.... its not a BEV.

    Its a hybrid ICE(inc Diesel) with some PHEV models but their marketing department is on overdrive with "electrified drivetrain" to try to make it relevant in the EV market.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,862 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    In fairness it claims a 100km range which is very decent. For a PHEV.

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,209 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    In fairness it claims a 100km range which is very decent. For a PHEV.

    True
    We will see alot more of that in the next 5 years.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 5,833 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    KCross wrote: »
    True
    We will see alot more of that in the next 5 years.


    I'd take a REX with decent battery and fast charging over a PHEV with a borderline useless battery and slow charging


    I'd still take a BEV over both though :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,209 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    I'd take a REX with decent battery and fast charging over a PHEV with a borderline useless battery and slow charging

    Well, the point is that the new PHEV's have EV range approaching what your Leaf has, so hardly borderline useless in that context unless you are saying your Leaf is borderline useless?! ;)

    As for "slow charging".... who cares, it charges once per day, overnight. Makes no difference if it charges in 4hrs or 8hrs and you always have the engine backup... thats the selling point.

    Not in disagreement that BEV is "better" but it is down to personal choice/opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,833 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    KCross wrote: »
    Well, the point is that the new PHEV's have EV range approaching what your Leaf has, so hardly borderline useless in that context unless you are saying your Leaf is borderline useless?! ;)

    As for "slow charging".... who cares, it charges once per day, overnight. Makes no difference if it charges in 4hrs or 8hrs and you always have the engine backup... thats the selling point.

    Not in disagreement that BEV is "better" but it is down to personal choice/opinion.


    My Leaf gets a good bit more than 100km on WLTP, and I can guaruntee that the new C-class will get a lot less than 100km in real life


    My main gripe with PHEVs isn't really around the technology, but more around the usage. I'm quite certain a lot of PHEVs, particularly Mercedes and BMW ones get bought to avoid expensive VRT and road taxes, not because of a desire to go electric


    A lot of those cars hardly ever get charged and are no better than their ICE equivalents in that case


    With a BEV you've no choice obviously, and trying to drive a REX on petrol only would be more of a headache than charging it regularly


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,042 ✭✭✭ eagerv


    My Leaf gets a good bit more than 100km on WLTP, and I can guaruntee that the new C-class will get a lot less than 100km in real life


    My main gripe with PHEVs isn't really around the technology, but more around the usage. I'm quite certain a lot of PHEVs, particularly Mercedes and BMW ones get bought to avoid expensive VRT and road taxes, not because of a desire to go electric


    A lot of those cars hardly ever get charged and are no better than their ICE equivalents in that case


    With a BEV you've no choice obviously, and trying to drive a REX on petrol only would be more of a headache than charging it regularly


    In my part of the world I see a lot of them plugged in, but not sure if charging, presumably to avail of the free parking.:pac:


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,862 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    My main gripe with PHEVs isn't really around the technology, but more around the usage. I'm quite certain a lot of PHEVs, particularly Mercedes and BMW ones get bought to avoid expensive VRT and road taxes, not because of a desire to go electric


    A lot of those cars hardly ever get charged and are no better than their ICE equivalents in that case


    With a BEV you've no choice obviously, and trying to drive a REX on petrol only would be more of a headache than charging it regularly

    Indeed. You can't blame the owners who buy them, most of them don't give a sh1t about the environment / climate change or are ignorant about it.

    You can blame the EU though for their lameness and being far too closely tied to EU car manufacturers and their lobby. A WLTP scheme of penalties for any car over 30g CO2/km and severe penalties for any car over 60g CO2/km would have us all only buying pure EVs by now (or pay eye-watering prices if we insist on our beloved cancer diesels)

    And never mind those EU regulations, individual countries can offer far more fiscal stick and carrot if they want

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 5,833 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    unkel wrote: »
    Indeed. You can't blame the owners who buy them, most of them don't give a sh1t about the environment / climate change or are ignorant about it.

    You can blame the EU though for their lameness and being far too closely tied to EU car manufacturers and their lobby. A WLTP scheme of penalties for any car over 30g CO2/km and severe penalties for any car over 60g CO2/km would have us all only buying pure EVs by now (or pay eye-watering prices if we insist on our beloved cancer diesels)

    And never mind those EU regulations, individual countries can offer far more fiscal stick and carrot if they want


    Even simpler, tax vehicles on the petrol engine only and don't allow "combined" driving to be considered. Hybridisation would immediately die off, only EVs and REXs with tiny motorbike engines would make sense then


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,833 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    unkel wrote: »
    It has a dinosaur juice engine from the 20th century. Meh. Don't bother with that thread :p


    Versus the 19th century engine in your Tesla? ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,209 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    My Leaf gets a good bit more than 100km on WLTP, and I can guaruntee that the new C-class will get a lot less than 100km in real life

    I was specific by saying "approaching" your Leaf range. Interesting you took your Leaf WLTP but the C-Class real world range.... hardly a fair comparison! ;)
    PHEV's from 2-3 years ago with advertised range of 57km can do a solid 45km in the real world.

    Not much, if anything, is known about this 100km in the C-Class yet but the point is that its a significant leap forward and more than enough EV range for alot of people.

    If someone picks a PHEV over an ICE I'm all for it.

    There are too many purists on the forum who believe its BEV or nothing.


    My main gripe with PHEVs isn't really around the technology, but more around the usage. I'm quite certain a lot of PHEVs, particularly Mercedes and BMW ones get bought to avoid expensive VRT and road taxes, not because of a desire to go electric

    It was certainly a problem in the UK particularly as a BIK dodge. Not so much here. THere will always be people who abuse it but I dont think there is widescale abuse of PHEV's anymore and any abuse of parking or charging is the fault of the operator, not the car manufacturer.

    If anything the BEV owners are worse as there was widescale abuse of charging facilities until charging for charging came in.

    A lot of those cars hardly ever get charged...

    I dont believe it to be honest. I think thats based on anecdotal evidence or past stories from the UK and BEV owners can be just as bad.


    Dont get me wrong, I'd prefer everyone to be in a BEV too but there is nothing wrong with a PHEV if it suits your usage profile and cuts emissions around our town/cities/schools etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭ Casati


    KCross wrote: »
    I was specific by saying "approaching" your Leaf range. Interesting you took your Leaf WLTP but the C-Class real world range.... hardly a fair comparison! ;)
    PHEV's from 2-3 years ago with advertised range of 57km can do a solid 45km in the real world.

    Not much, if anything, is known about this 100km in the C-Class yet but the point is that its a significant leap forward and more than enough EV range for alot of people.

    If someone picks a PHEV over an ICE I'm all for it.

    There are too many purists on the forum who believe its BEV or nothing.





    It was certainly a problem in the UK particularly as a BIK dodge. Not so much here. THere will always be people who abuse it but I dont think there is widescale abuse of PHEV's anymore and any abuse of parking or charging is the fault of the operator, not the car manufacturer.

    If anything the BEV owners are worse as there was widescale abuse of charging facilities until charging for charging came in.




    I dont believe it to be honest. I think thats based on anecdotal evidence or past stories from the UK and BEV owners can be just as bad.


    Dont get me wrong, I'd prefer everyone to be in a BEV too but there is nothing wrong with a PHEV if it suits your usage profile and cuts emissions around our town/cities/schools etc.


    Have a look at the 530e thread - nobody on it is taking about about buying and never charging and why should they as most journeys are less than 20km.

    This C class looks v interesting - how many people do more than 100km in a day except the odd time they have a log trip etc


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,084 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    Casati wrote: »
    Have a look at the 530e thread - nobody on it is taking about about buying and never charging and why should they as most journeys are less than 20km.

    The problem with PHEV's isn't the people who discuss the car on an EV&Hybrid forum, the big issue is when they are given as company cars to people. In those cases tax savings under BIK are the benefit but in practice people just don't bother plugging in. The experience in the UK market was that they were just a big tax dodge.

    I'm a believer that PHEVs have a place in the market, but their batteries are too small to meet my requirements. I'd rather put up with a rapid charger a few times a year than have to plug in my car every night.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,862 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Versus the 19th century engine in your Tesla? ;)

    Indeed. But the batteries have improved drastically in the last decade or so. Whereas the only developments in combustion engines are DMF, EGR, turbos, DPF, cheating software, catalytic converters, pigs p1ss, etc. etc. in other words, a whole rake of failures, failing to prevent the failure of the engine itself :p

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭ Buddy Bubs


    Everyone I know is charging them. Put it this way, how many are buying a petrol only bmw/merc/audi in anything 3 series/c class size or bigger? None really. If they don't want to or can't plug in, they're buying diesel.

    C class looks like a good machine, give me a little while to absorb the interior design, in particular the screen, and I'm sure it'll grow on me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭ Casati


    liamog wrote: »
    The problem with PHEV's isn't the people who discuss the car on an EV&Hybrid forum, the big issue is when they are given as company cars to people. In those cases tax savings under BIK are the benefit but in practice people just don't bother plugging in. The experience in the UK market was that they were just a big tax dodge.

    I'm a believer that PHEVs have a place in the market, but their batteries are too small to meet my requirements. I'd rather put up with a rapid charger a few times a year than have to plug in my car every night.

    Fair enough - if you get one as a company car and get a fuel card its hard to see why you should spend your own money on electricity to fuel it. In Ireland we haven't had any BIK advantage with PHEV's and with VAT on diesel Im guessing not many companies run PHEV's.

    I would seriously do the maths next time round - my use case is daily short journeys - up to max 80km a day with a long 600km+ trip every other week. An EV really won't work for me unless I can find time to stop and charge in a service station - which I would really rather avoid. A diesel PHEV could be a good next step


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭ Buddy Bubs


    Casati wrote: »
    Fair enough - if you get one as a company car and get a fuel card its hard to see why you should spend your own money on electricity to fuel it. In Ireland we haven't had any BIK advantage with PHEV's and with VAT on diesel Im guessing not many companies run PHEV's.

    I would seriously do the maths next time round - my use case is daily short journeys - up to max 80km a day with a long 600km+ trip every other week. An EV really won't work for me unless I can find time to stop and charge in a service station - which I would really rather avoid. A diesel PHEV could be a good next step

    Mercedes have a diesel PHEV, the 300de. It's on sale in Ireland. Good option


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,084 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    Casati wrote: »
    I would seriously do the maths next time round - my use case is daily short journeys - up to max 80km a day with a long 600km+ trip every other week. An EV really won't work for me unless I can find time to stop and charge in a service station - which I would really rather avoid. A diesel PHEV could be a good next step

    Exactly, you are the ideal use case for a PHEV, for me the longer journeys are rare enough and are almost always a thing to do rather than a place to be so I don't mind having to charge.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭ Casati


    liamog wrote: »
    Exactly, you are the ideal use case for a PHEV, for me the longer journeys are rare enough and are almost always a thing to do rather than a place to be so I don't mind having to charge.

    Yeah I think it’s important to work out what’s best for you individually- similar to 2012 when city drivers started buying diesel 206’s and diesel Fiesta’s not everybody is a perfect fit for an EV now


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭ 80sDiesel


    Buddy Bubs wrote: »
    Everyone I know is charging them. Put it this way, how many are buying a petrol only bmw/merc/audi in anything 3 series/c class size or bigger? None really. If they don't want to or can't plug in, they're buying diesel.

    C class looks like a good machine, give me a little while to absorb the interior design, in particular the screen, and I'm sure it'll grow on me.

    Took a look at some interior videos. Sure looks fussy. Wouldn’t be to my liking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭ Buddy Bubs


    80sDiesel wrote: »
    Took a look at some interior videos. Sure looks fussy. Wouldn’t be to my liking.

    Not to mine just yet either, but we'll see how time views it. I do think the screen is too big. And portrait mode I'm not sure of either.
    I've never warmed to tesla interior and the Volvo portrait orientation doesn't do it for me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭ 80sDiesel


    Buddy Bubs wrote: »
    Not to mine just yet either, but we'll see how time views it. I do think the screen is too big. And portrait mode I'm not sure of either.
    I've never warmed to tesla interior and the Volvo portrait orientation doesn't do it for me.

    I am more of a fan of the minimalist style.
    Sometimes less is more

    New Mercedes C Class

    Mercedes%20C-Class%202021-11.jpg

    New Outlander
    2022-Mitsubishi-Outlander-Interior-768x512.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭ Kramer


    KCross wrote: »
    There are too many purists on the forum who believe its BEV or nothing.
    Dont get me wrong, I'd prefer everyone to be in a BEV too but there is nothing wrong with a PHEV if it suits your usage profile and cuts emissions around our town/cities/schools etc.

    Yep, some severe anti PHEV sentiment here :eek:.

    My small battery PHEV likely covers more pure electric kilometers than many Leafs. I didn't want a Leaf though, I wanted a luxury German saloon. I wanted close to 300hp, rear wheel drive & the ability to cross the continent without stopping 100 times to find a charger.

    Should I have been forced into a Leaf?
    No doubt some would say yes :pac:.

    Ultimately, this thinking leads to "why do you need a 100kWh/1000hp BEV? Wouldn't a less powerful, less polluting, front wheel drive EV get you to work & back?"

    We've had an Ioniq, have a Tesla but I'd still recommend a PHEV/ICE to some people, over a BEV. On some trips I could take the Tesla, but would take the PHEV instead, as it would be more suitable for that trip.
    Horses for courses & things will slowly change more & more in favour of BEVs, but for now, PHEVs can be a great solution.
    They'll be a stepping stone to BEVs for many too.
    Casati wrote: »
    Have a look at the 530e thread - nobody on it is taking about about buying and never charging and why should they as most journeys are less than 20km.

    Yes, everyone I know who got a 530e, got a home charge point installed shortly afterwards. Some even pay €0.20/kWh+ to charge publically (that's mad!). Someone could conceivably commute 20,000km per year in that car & never use petrol.
    That's a win for them, a win for the environment & a win for us all. They can go for a blast on combined electric/ICE then, enjoy their car - they paid well for it, fair play.

    Should we just ban them outright? Punish them? Screw them for not choosing a Leaf?
    Nope.

    QED :D.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭ Kramer


    80sDiesel wrote: »
    I am more of a fan of the minimalist style.
    Sometimes less is more
    New Outlander
    2022-Mitsubishi-Outlander-Interior-768x512.jpg

    Do you consider that Outlander, (will never be available in €urope), to be minimalist? Have you ever been in a Tesla Model 3?

    control.0.gif

    That's minimalist :P.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,084 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    Kramer wrote: »
    Yep, some severe anti PHEV sentiment here :eek:.

    Generally the only time I see an anti PHEV sentiment is when someone recommends a PHEV for a driver who will be well within range of a BEV for 360 days of the year, but then is recommended a PHEV because of that once a year trip from Dublin to Cork


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,209 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    liamog wrote: »
    Generally the only time I see an anti PHEV sentiment is when someone recommends a PHEV for a driver who will be well within range of a BEV for 360 days of the year, but then is recommended a PHEV because of that once a year trip from Dublin to Cork

    Alot more than that. Comments like

    Worst of both worlds
    Carrying around a heavy battery
    Tax dodgers
    EV charge point hoggers


    And a general view of "BEV or nothing". Usually by those who are happy with their BEV's therefore "it must be grand for everyone".

    I'm a BEV owner for many years now but I'm happy to see folks going for PHEV while we are waiting for BEV's to come down in price, charging infrastructure to improve and a better choice is available.

    It shouldnt be one or the other. The reality is that we need both for a good few years yet.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,084 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    KCross wrote: »
    Alot more than that. Comments like

    Worst of both worlds
    Carrying around a heavy battery
    Tax dodgers
    EV charge point hoggers

    That's not anti PHEV, that's the just facts about them :cool:

    A PHEV that isn't charged is needlessly carrying a heavy battery so a better choice would be a hybrid instead.
    PHEV's spend more time charging because they have small battery's particularly a problem for those who try to use the PHEV as an EV so end up spending far more time using public charge points.
    The tax dodge comments are based on other jurisdictions where PHEV's have largely ended up being used to avoid taxes instead of for the ideal use case of daily EV driving with regular enough longer journeys where the petrol motor makes sense.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 11,209 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    liamog wrote: »
    That's not anti PHEV, that's the just facts about them :cool:

    A PHEV that isn't charged is needlessly carrying a heavy battery so a better choice would be a hybrid instead.
    PHEV's spend more time charging because they have small battery's particularly a problem for those who try to use the PHEV as an EV so end up spending far more time using public charge points.
    The tax dodge comments are based on other jurisdictions where PHEV's have largely ended up being used to avoid taxes instead of for the ideal use case of daily EV driving with regular enough longer journeys where the petrol motor makes sense.

    You're just perpetuating the myths liam! :)

    The heavy battery thing is neither here nor there. The car still delivers decent mpg when in petrol mode (I've tested a Cork-Dub-Cork run personally myself) and in EV mode you are as good as a BEV driver... the extra weight is largely irrelevant over the lifecycle of the car.

    The charge speed is the same as early BEV's.... 3.6kW.
    As the PHEV's get larger batteries Im sure 7kW will be more common but as I said its largely irrelevant as the vast majority of the charging is at home by night so who cares.

    AC on street charging is under utilised anyway as they are 22kW and most EV's (inc BEVs) cant go beyond 7kW so its again irrelevant... its about shifting more of the users driving to zero emissions.

    Other jusidictions and their tax code are irrelevant here. Most people that I see buying PHEV's on here charge the car at home. I think the % who buy a PHEV and dont charge it in this country is minimal. We dont have the tax dodge they had in the UK and why would you pay a premium for a PHEV and then not charge it. Its a non-issue as far as I can see.


Advertisement