When is a new/used car officially "yours"?

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

So, say I go and look at a used car, and I'm covered on my insurance for driving other cars, then obviously it's fine and legal to test drive the car.

But if I then buy the car, does this mean that I'm no longer legally allowed to drive it until I transfer my insurance over?
For example, my insurance says I'm allowed to drive other cars besides my own, once they don't belong to me.

So does this mean until I sign the change of ownership form?
Or does it mean until the form gets sent to the Dept of Transport and the ownership is officially changed?
Or maybe until the log book actually arrives to my house?
Or is this just a bit of a grey area?

Like how would this work out if I was stopped by the cops on the way home with my new car? Or, god forbid if I crashed it on the way home?

And what's the best way to go about this if you're going to buy a new car in the evening, after the insurance company have shut up shop for the day?

Edit:
Or perhaps another interesting option.. Can you just sign the change of ownership form with tomorrow's date instead? This seems to be a legal option in normal contracts, so perhaps it would also be an option in this case?

wandererz

It's yours when you sign.

Call up the insurance company beforehand and inform them of the time to switch over.

Ask them to email you confirmation.

bb12

if you're going to look at a used car in the evening that you havent seen before and you want to buy, people usually leave a deposit with the seller and then organise their insurance so they can pick up in the next day or two

con747

Just bring someone else with you who has insurance to drive other vehicles.

FishOnABike

Does your insurance company have an online system to allow you transfer insurance to a new vehicle yourself? That's how I've done it when I've changed cars.

Marcusm

Signing a contract and dating it for the following day will not be of any assistance. A contract for the sale of goods/chattels need not be in writing and of the goods are ascertained (identified), you agree to purchase them without conditions and possession is transferred to you unconditionally then you would have achieved nothing by dating it the following day save that you have likely committed an offence of creating a false instrument!

The date of the contract (meaning the date on which you agreed unconditionally to acquire them) is the date on which they generally become yours even if you don’t pick them up for a week.

It’s not hard to arrange the transfer of insurance. I took my 80 year old aunt to a dealership on Friday to inspect a car, she left a deposit and we transferred the insurance by phone from the dealer’s car park. (No online banking or online use of insurance company for most 80 year olds.). The dealer delivered the car on Monday and she handed over a cheque for the balance. Because she could have pulled out at any stage up to handing over the cheque, she became the owner at that point and not earlier. Had she agreed unconditionally to buy on the Friday with no ability to pull out then she would have been the owner from that date.

Now on to the real problem of an 80 year old who has only driven manual petrol Corollas since the late 60s migrating to an automatic hybrid!

Zurbaran

I have bought a car in the evening when you couldn’t call to change so what I did was email them with the car, reg and said from what time I wanted it to change.

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm only looking at the moment, so I'm not "having trouble" transferring insurance or anything, just curious on the legalities of it, and wondering how other people get it done.

Last time I just drove away in my own car again and got a spin up to collect the new car the next day, after transferring the insurance first.
I just find it a bit silly that it's basically legal to test drive a car that's not yours, but then illegal to drive it after signing the ownership form..

wandererz

Janessa Chilly Waterworks wrote: »

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm only looking at the moment, so I'm not "having trouble" transferring insurance or anything, just curious on the legalities of it, and wondering how other people get it done.

Last time I just drove away in my own car again and got a spin up to collect the new car the next day, after transferring the insurance first.
I just find it a bit silly that it's basically legal to test drive a car that's not yours, but then illegal to drive it after signing the ownership form..

During a test drive, your insurance covers you for driving 3rd party vehicles.

Once it's in your ownership, its no longer a 3rd party vehicle and you need to transfer the insurance to the new car or get a second policy as a second car that you own.

aFlabbyPanda

Double check the driving of details of the clause fully. I thought I was covered in this scenario but according to the fine print my policy covers the driving of other vehicles but that vehicle must not be owned by me (so until I sign the order form) and it must be insured by someone else already.

bazz26

Yes, the driving of other vehicles may only cover other vehicles you don't actually own. Just be careful as insurance companies can define you as the owner of the vehicle as soon as you pay for it because you now have an insurable interest in it and stand to be at a financial loss if it's stolen, damaged or destroyed. Don't just assume you are not the owner for insurance purposes until you become the registered keeper, they can be too different things in their eyes.

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

aFlabbyPanda wrote: »

Double check the driving of details of the clause fully. I thought I was covered in this scenario but according to the fine print my policy covers the driving of other vehicles but that vehicle must not be owned by me (so until I sign the order form) and it must be insured by someone else already.

Yea, mine just says:
- Any other private motor car (excluding vans, minibuses or commercial vehicles) being driven by the insured provided such a vehicle does not belong to him / her or his / her employer and is not hired under a hire purchase agreement.


.. without any other clauses or anything. But they do kind of make it awkward, making you dig around through some jargon to figure out exactly what's going on.

bazz26 wrote: »

Yes, the driving of other vehicles may only cover other vehicles you don't actually own. Just be careful as insurance companies can define you as the owner of the vehicle as soon as you pay for it because you now have an insurable interest in it and stand to be at a financial loss if it's stolen, damaged or destroyed. Don't just assume you are not the owner for insurance purposes until you become the registered keeper, they can be too different things in their eyes.

I do go by the book alright (which is why I'm here!). But I imagine there's more of a chance of a cop letting something like this slide, if you were stopped on the road bringing the car home, in comparison to the insurance company if you had an accident. They'd probably dig deep into every nook and cranny to find some way to avoid paying out a claim.

con747

Also if you get a courtesy car from a garage when getting repairs your not covered automatically on fully comp insurance, on most policies so the drive any car third party does not apply. I was nearly caught out with AIG a few years ago when I switched online for a timing belt job and was getting a car from the garage and before I left the garage I just double checked by phoning them and was told it was not on their system but I took screen shots of the confirmation just in case. So never rely on the computer, talk and confirm with a human!

zg3409

Its best to view car during office hours so if you do buy it you can ring insurance when they are open. The rules under driving other cars varies by insurer so beware you nay not be covered if other car does not have nct, nor valid insurance nor tax. There may also be engine size limits and it typically dies not cover vans etc.

bazz26

Janessa Chilly Waterworks wrote: »

I do go by the book alright (which is why I'm here!). But I imagine there's more of a chance of a cop letting something like this slide, if you were stopped on the road bringing the car home, in comparison to the insurance company if you had an accident. They'd probably dig deep into every nook and cranny to find some way to avoid paying out a claim.

Well your either insured to drive the car or your not, it's pretty black and white with insurance companies around that so if your stopped by AGS I'd imagine they wouldn't let something like not being insured slide. I'd say they would confirm with your insurance company that you are actually insured to drive it if they feel the need to. A quick phone call at the side of the road would confirm it.

Marcusm

Janessa Chilly Waterworks wrote: »

Yea, mine just says:
- Any other private motor car (excluding vans, minibuses or commercial vehicles) being driven by the insured provided such a vehicle does not belong to him / her or his / her employer and is not hired under a hire purchase agreement.


.. without any other clauses or anything. But they do kind of make it awkward, making you dig around through some jargon to figure out exactly what's going on.



I do go by the book alright (which is why I'm here!). But I imagine there's more of a chance of a cop letting something like this slide, if you were stopped on the road bringing the car home, in comparison to the insurance company if you had an accident. They'd probably dig deep into every nook and cranny to find some way to avoid paying out a claim.

How do you think that it could possibly not belong to you when you have paid for it and taken it away from the dealership with no ability to bring it back to them? Codification of the law on the sale of goods in 1893 was designed to recognise the reality of the commercial bargain between the buyer and seller! Surely you would recognise yourself as the buyer in these circumstances.

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

zg3409 wrote: »

Its best to view car during office hours so if you do buy it you can ring insurance when they are open. The rules under driving other cars varies by insurer so beware you nay not be covered if other car does not have nct, nor valid insurance nor tax. There may also be engine size limits and it typically dies not cover vans etc.

Yea, but a general "I just bought the car, guard" will usually cover no tax, and maybe NCT. But maybe not insurance.

bazz26 wrote: »

Well your either insured to drive the car or your not, it's pretty black and white with insurance companies around that so if your stopped by AGS I'd imagine they wouldn't let something like not being insured slide. I'd say they would confirm with your insurance company that you are actually insured to drive it if they feel the need to. A quick phone call at the side of the road would confirm it.

Perhaps, but it could depend on several factors, like how far you are from home, how you explain it to them, the individual Garda, etc.

Marcusm wrote: »

How do you think that it could possibly not belong to you when you have paid for it and taken it away from the dealership with no ability to bring it back to them? Codification of the law on the sale of goods in 1893 was designed to recognise the reality of the commercial bargain between the buyer and seller! Surely you would recognise yourself as the buyer in these circumstances.

I was talking more about a private sale, not a dealer. Since dealers mostly keep the same hours as insurance companies anyway. I'm just more looking for information, not making an argument about it one way or the other, since I'm not an expert on the law.

But how about this.. If I go to buy a car, and just tell the previous owner to "hold on to this wad of cash for a while", and then bring the logbook home with me before signing it and sending it away myself?
Or maybe the price of the car is €5000 but I give the owner €4999.99 as a deposit and tell him I'll pay the rest tomorrow.
Again, I'm not trying to do this, just wondering about the specifics of the law in a situation like this.

bazz26

Janessa Chilly Waterworks wrote: »

Perhaps, but it could depend on several factors, like how far you are from home, how you explain it to them, the individual Garda, etc.

But how would you convince them that your insured if they get confirmation from your insurance company that your not? How would the distance from home change that? You need insurance to drive a vehicle on a public road irrespective of the distance from your home.

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

bazz26 wrote: »

But how would you convince them that your insured if they get confirmation from your insurance company that your not? How would the distance from home change that? You need insurance to drive a vehicle on a public road irrespective of the distance from your home.

I'm just saying that it might go something like:

Garda: Where are ya off to this evening?
Driver: Hi guard, I'm just on my way home.
Garda: Is this your car?
Driver: Yea, I just bought it, from a guy down on Main Street.
Garda: Are you insured?
Driver: Yea, I have insurance to drive other cars.
Garda: Where do you live?
Driver: Just up there, around the corner, in Blabla Park.
Garda: Alright, go on. Drive carefully.

Oftentimes the cops won't bother their arse if they think that there's nothing dangerous/illegal going on, and if you're not taking the piss. But still, it probably depends on the cop, and how you act, how you were driving, how you react to them, etc.

For example, if you were driving the car from Cork to Dublin, and speeding, and being a bit cheeky, and the cop was in a bad mood, it might be a different story.

But of course it's always a risk.

User1998

As long as theres a disc in the window you’d be grand. 3rd party extension probably grand too. If you crashed its a different story

Esel

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/post/116396131

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

Esel wrote: »

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/post/116396131

Damn, that's an unfortunate, if interesting, one. They're definitely a lot less likely to cut you some slack in this situation where an offence was already committed.
Must keep an eye on this one to see how it plays out.

Mundo7976

A car has to be insured to be driven on the road.
Your cover to drive other cars only applies when the car is actually insured in the other person's name (if they've no insurance when you test drive it, you aren't covered then either)

So you must arrange insurance cover in your name on the new car before you drive it on the road.

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

Mundo7976 wrote: »

A car has to be insured to be driven on the road.
Your cover to drive other cars only applies when the car is actually insured in the other person's name (if they've no insurance when you test drive it, you aren't covered then either)

So you must arrange insurance cover in your name on the new car before you drive it on the road.

I don't think this is always the case. I mean, "you're" insured so if you hit somebody then you're covered, it has nothing to do with the car. But yea, if you write off the borrowed car then your insurance wouldn't usually cover it, and it would depend on whether the owner had fully comp or not.

For example this website https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/money/insurance/car-insurance/ says:

Driving other people’s cars – this covers you for any damage you do to another car or person while driving someone else’s car. It does not cover any damage to the car you borrowed or personal injury to you if you cause an accident. Note: This excludes cars owned by the insured or their partner. There are restrictions with certain insurers based on C.C. of the other vehicle, it must be taxed and have a valid NCT and some insurers require that it has valid insurance in place on it. Some insurers will also give comprehensive cover on the borrowed vehicle but with some restrictions.

I've checked several other insurance company's websites and I didn't find any of them saying that the other car must always be insured.

I mean, the point of insurance is that if you damage somebody/something then they're not out of pocket for your mistake. Whether the car you use is insured or not is irrelevant, or at least up to the insurance company, not the law.

User1998

Janessa Chilly Waterworks wrote: »

I don't think this is always the case. I mean, "you're" insured so if you hit somebody then you're covered, it has nothing to do with the car. But yea, if you write off the borrowed car then your insurance wouldn't usually cover it, and it would depend on whether the owner had fully comp or not.

For example this website https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/money/insurance/car-insurance/ says:

Driving other people’s cars – this covers you for any damage you do to another car or person while driving someone else’s car. It does not cover any damage to the car you borrowed or personal injury to you if you cause an accident. Note: This excludes cars owned by the insured or their partner. There are restrictions with certain insurers based on C.C. of the other vehicle, it must be taxed and have a valid NCT and some insurers require that it has valid insurance in place on it. Some insurers will also give comprehensive cover on the borrowed vehicle but with some restrictions.

I've checked several other insurance company's websites and I didn't find any of them saying that the other car must always be insured.

I mean, the point of insurance is that if you damage somebody/something then they're not out of pocket for your mistake. Whether the car you use is insured or not is irrelevant, or at least up to the insurance company, not the law.

Without the restriction of the other car having to be insured, you could buy an old 1 litre micra and insure it. And then drive your 500bhp Audi that you registered in your friends name

Liberty and Aviva both require the other car to be insured, not sure about other crowds

Marcusm

Janessa Chilly Waterworks wrote: »

I was talking more about a private sale, not a dealer. Since dealers mostly keep the same hours as insurance companies anyway. I'm just more looking for information, not making an argument about it one way or the other, since I'm not an expert on the law.

But how about this.. If I go to buy a car, and just tell the previous owner to "hold on to this wad of cash for a while", and then bring the logbook home with me before signing it and sending it away myself?
Or maybe the price of the car is €5000 but I give the owner €4999.99 as a deposit and tell him I'll pay the rest tomorrow.
Again, I'm not trying to do this, just wondering about the specifics of the law in a situation like this.

It would not generally matter even if you did not pay for 10 years, the question is whether you have contracted to purchase the car or not. If someone gave you the car for a 3 day test drive then it would not “belong” to you until you committed to buying it. Good luck with taking that approach with a private sale.

What you are trying to do is naive and, more importantly, unnecessary.