Israel two tier system post vaccination

LuckyLloyd

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/18/world/middleeast/israel-covid-vaccine-reopen.html?referringSource=articleShare

“Under a new “Green Badge” system that functions as both a carrot and a stick, the government is making leisure activities accessible only to people who are fully vaccinated or recovered starting from Sunday. Two weeks later, restaurants, event halls and conferences will be allowed to operate under those rules. Customers and attendees will have to carry a certificate of vaccination with a QR code.”

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Very interesting approach by Israel and how I always imagined it should work. I think this should eventually become the standard across the world.

Pigeon Chaser

Think Israel was a 2 tier arrangement pre vaccination anyway..

LuckyLloyd

Pigeon Chaser wrote: »

Think Israel was a 2 tier arrangement pre vaccination anyway..

There’s probably some truth to that.

But rather than discussing Israel specifically, it’s worth asking the question if it could work here or across the rest of the EU, the US, etc? I think it could.

pconn062

I am pro vaccine but would be strongly opposed to this idea. Having to carry a certificate to do simple things like go for a meal or to a shopping center doesn't sit right with me at all, and I see businesses really fighting against it as they struggle to build their businesses back up.

pjohnson

pconn062 wrote: »

I am pro vaccine but would be strongly opposed to this idea. Having to carry a certificate to do simple things like go for a meal or to a shopping center doesn't sit right with me at all, and I see businesses really fighting against it as they struggle to build their businesses back up.

I'd imagine most businesses would tbh. Let any possible customer know that they are trying to operate a safe business. That would be appealing to most people.

I remember another time in history when people had to wear identifying badges in a tiered society...

LuckyLloyd

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I remember another time in history when people had to wear identifying badges in a tiered society...

Well the vaccine will be available to everyone. The Nazis weren’t running an opt in / opt out program.

Smee_Again

pconn062 wrote: »

I am pro vaccine but would be strongly opposed to this idea. Having to carry a certificate to do simple things like go for a meal or to a shopping center doesn't sit right with me at all, and I see businesses really fighting against it as they struggle to build their businesses back up.

If it was introduced and a business didn’t ask for it I wouldn’t return.

No reason why it can’t work the same as ID for alcohol sales, no requirement to actually carry ID with you but onus is on the seller to make sure the purchaser is over 18.

pjohnson

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well the vaccine will be available to everyone. The Nazis weren’t running an opt in / opt out program.

It seems most people who try to equate vaccinations with Nazi's actually have no clue what the Nazi's actually did, they just think it sounds cool.

Silentcorner

pjohnson wrote: »

It seems most people who try to equate vaccinations with Nazi's actually have no clue what the Nazi's actually did, they just think it sounds cool.

I don't think anyone has a problem with vaccinations...the problem is the tiered society.

But of course, you knew that!!!

pjohnson

Silentcorner wrote: »

I don't think anyone has a problem with vaccinations...the problem is the tiered society.

But of course, you knew that!!!

The problem is actually a lack of knowledge about Nazi Germany.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well the vaccine will be available to everyone. The Nazis weren’t running an opt in / opt out program.

So you can opt out of all leisure activities.

Good "choice" there.

Irish Aris

[QUOTE=Smee_Again;116330159 If it was introduced and a business didn’t ask for it I wouldn’t return.

No reason why it can’t work the same as ID for alcohol sales, no requirement to actually carry ID with you but onus is on the seller to make sure the purchaser is over 18.[/QUOTE]

I would be the opposite, I wouldn't go to a business if they asked for it, with the exception of essential shopping of course (food).
I will of course get the vaccine as soon as it is offered to me, getting though to protect myself.
I can understand it as a requirement in certain scenarios, like travelling, but not everywhere. I don't expect it to become a norm, but you never know. . .

pjohnson

pjohnson wrote: »

The problem is actually a lack of knowledge about Nazi Germany.

You can say that as many times as you like, it still won't be true.

DaSilva

Smee_Again wrote: »

If it was introduced and a business didn’t ask for it I wouldn’t return.

No reason why it can’t work the same as ID for alcohol sales, no requirement to actually carry ID with you but onus is on the seller to make sure the purchaser is over 18.

And I would be the opposite, I'd be less likely to go somewhere that asked for people to prove their status.

I am personally going to take whatever vaccine is offered to me immediately, but I don't think we should try force anyone into getting it. We also shouldn't forget about the people who cannot take vaccines, are you going to require that people provide proof they couldn't get the vaccine?

If you are vaccinated why do you care what other people do

pjohnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You can say that as many times as you like, it still won't be true.

Like you putting choice in quotes doesn't make it that there isn't a choice.

pjohnson

pjohnson wrote: »

Like you putting choice in quotes doesn't make it that there isn't a choice.

Yawn. You're boring.

seenitall

Dr Mike Ryan of the WHO said in a presser that Ireland and other wealthy countries should share their vaccines with the poorer countries around the world. He was rather forceful about it, anyone seen it? He said that most of the world’s vaccines are being distributed to the wealthiest countries and that it wasn’t fair that the old people in poor countries will be dying of Covid, while young and healthy are getting vaccinated in the rich “North”. Which leads me to feel that he probably wouldn’t think much of your/Israeli idea, OP.

(I saw the clip briefly today - somewhere, can’t find it now...)

LessOutragePlz

This paves the way for the social credit system like the one used in China.

Once we start giving up some of our freedoms we'll never get them back so this would be a slippery slope IMO if we do what Israel are doing.

pjohnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yawn. You're boring.

Because I understand Nazi Germany AND what choice is?

pjohnson

pjohnson wrote: »

Because I understand Nazi Germany AND what choice is?

If you've a problem with me, PM me. I'm ignoring your facile remarks from now on in this thread.

Bye now. Kisses.

pjohnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you've a problem with me, PM me. I'm ignoring your facile remarks from now on in this thread.

Bye now. Kisses.

Right. Bizarre.

Anyway, no one should be surprised by such an authoritarian move by Israel. That country has form.

Charles Babbage

Silentcorner wrote: »

I don't think anyone has a problem with vaccinations...the problem is the tiered society.

But of course, you knew that!!!

The term "Tiered society" is pejorative.

The issue is whether people are allowed behave in anti social way.


All societies have restrictions, there is no major city in the world where you can walk about naked, for instance.



The way to end restrictions for everyone is to have a vaccine and then only restrict people refusing to get one.

Sleeper12

pconn062 wrote:

I am pro vaccine but would be strongly opposed to this idea. Having to carry a certificate to do simple things like go for a meal or to a shopping center doesn't sit right with me at all, and I see businesses really fighting against it as they struggle to build their businesses back up.

I think most businesses would love this idea. A restaurant with only vaccinated customers would mean not having to have tables a metre apart I'd imagine. No limit on time spent on the premises. No food required for pubs etc.

I'll be one of the last groups to get the vaccine probably in August or so. If there is a vaccination passport I'd imagine it would be redundant shortly after this

I'll be getting vaccinated as soon as I can and anywhere that doesn't want to take my money because I won't prove it is their loss.

pconn062

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I think most businesses would love this idea. A restaurant with only vaccinated customers would mean not having to have tables a metre apart I'd imagine. No limit on time spent on the premises. No food required for pubs etc.

I'll be one of the last groups to get the vaccine probably in August or so. If there is a vaccination passport I'd imagine it would be redundant shortly after this

I struggle to see businesses that have been closed or severely restricted for the last year limiting their potential customer pool by only accepting customers who have a vaccine passport.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'll be getting vaccinated as soon as I can and anywhere that doesn't want to take my money because I won't prove it is their loss.

I'll take the vaccine voluntarily. I won't carry a vaccine ID. Mandatory vaccination is not the way to go either.

Just make it voluntary and the vast majority will take it, enough for herd immunity. Any strong arm tactics will be counter productive here, I think.

My opinion, This is a very very dangerous road to go down and where it could lead to. It will certainly only help divide people more and more in an already very divided country/world.
We are human beings, not cattle.

Jimbobjoeyman

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll take the vaccine voluntarily. I won't carry a vaccine ID. Mandatory vaccination is not the way to go either.

Just make it voluntary and the vast majority will take it, enough for herd immunity. Any strong arm tactics will be counterproductive here, I think.

Completely agree.
Enough people are skeptical about vaccinations as it is due to misinformation.
Making them mandatory just reinforces the conspiracy.

People need to be educated to the benefits rather than forced and shamed into compliance.
If that was to happen here it'd be the nanny state going too far once again.

Smee_Again

DaSilva wrote: »

If you are vaccinated why do you care what other people do

Because there needs to be a critical mass of people vaccinated for it to be effective at a population level.

Non-vaccinated people also put those who can’t get vaccinated at increased risk and IMO those people should be the ones who get to go for meals etc, not the selfish anti-vaxxers.

Silentcorner

tommybrees wrote: »

My opinion, This is a very very dangerous road to go down and where it could lead to. It will certainly only help divide people more and more in an already very divided country/world.
We are human beings, not cattle.

We've been conditioned to think there is only one way out of this...vaccines...that much is patently obvious!

Sleeper12

pconn062 wrote:

I struggle to see businesses that have been closed or severely restricted for the last year limiting their potential customer pool by only accepting customers who have a vaccine passport.

If it means business as usual if vaccination only customers or restricted numbers, time, outdoor only with non vaccination customer then I think most if not all businesses would prefer vaccination only

pconn062

Smee_Again wrote: »

Because there needs to be a critical mass of people vaccinated for it to be effective at a population level.

Non-vaccinated people also put those who can’t get vaccinated at increased risk and IMO those people should be the ones who get to go for meals etc, not the selfish anti-vaxxers.

You have to be realistic though. There will be a critical mass of people who will get the vaccine, probably in the region of 80%. Do you really see a situation arising where people who don't get vaccinated for whatever reason will be denied long term access to restaurants and cafes and supermarkets? In practical terms I don't see how it can work. Will it only apply to leisure services or will it apply to supermarkets too? And if so how will these people buy food? And if it doesn't apply to supermarkets then what's the point? Surely it has to be all or nothing for it to be successful? Practically I just can't see it getting passed, and neither should it lMO.

pconn062

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If it means business as usual if vaccination only customers or restricted numbers, time, outdoor only with non vaccination customer then I think most if not all businesses would prefer vaccination only

Do you foresee a future where restaurants have vaccinated and non vaccinated sections in Ireland?

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I remember another time in history when people had to wear identifying badges in a tiered society...

Yeah. I wonder if there any way we could ask the Jews what to why think about the plan...

Fr Tod Umptious

A Godwined COVID-19 thread.

Who would have thunk it.

Ronald Franz

So businesses whom we have had to listen to complaints about being smothered out of business, at the brink of closing, are going to cut off a percentage (IMO > 20%) of their customer base because they are not vaccine certified?
Yet every certified customer may be able to transmit covid anyway.

I can see state bodies doing it for the revenue, like a TV licence but just an annual vaccine certificate fee. But not private businesses.

If you have your vaccine then you should be grand, mind your bloody business about other people's health.
If not letting people use a restaurant or pub or gym or travel without a vaccine isn't discrimination then I dunno what is.

Jimbobjoeyman

Smee_Again wrote: »

Because there needs to be a critical mass of people vaccinated for it to be effective at a population level.

Non-vaccinated people also put those who can’t get vaccinated at increased risk and IMO those people should be the ones who get to go for meals etc, not the selfish anti-vaxxers.

We'll never achieve anything close to herd immunity or remove the virus from society.
Its here to stay as its too changeable.

So your suggesting mandated yearly vaccines for the entire population regardless of what they have to say in order to access basic services?

I'm not sure which sits worse with me to be honest this kind of rhetoric or anti-vaxxers

Ronald Franz

Ronald Franz wrote: »

So businesses whom we have had to listen to complaints about being smothered out of business, at the brink of closing, are going to cut off a percentage (IMO > 20%) of their customer base because they are not vaccine certified?
Yet every certified customer may be able to transmit covid anyway.

I can see state bodies doing it for the revenue, like a TV licence but just an annual vaccine certificate fee. But not private businesses.

Great, another license I won't be paying.

GreeBo

Silentcorner wrote: »

We've been conditioned to think there is only one way out of this...vaccines...that much is patently obvious!

Whats your alternative? Veganism?

Jimbobjoeyman

GreeBo wrote: »

Whats your alternative? Veganism?

an effective treatment would do a lot to de-risk covid and would be preferable to vaccination as it wouldn't rely on a large amount of the population to take it.
While vaccines are one of the best ways of managing things in our current state an effective treatment would allow things to move significantly faster.

LuckyLloyd

Jimbobjoeyman wrote: »

an effective treatment would do a lot to de-risk covid and would be preferable to vaccination as it wouldn't rely on a large amount of the population to take it.
While vaccines are one of the best ways of managing things in our current state an effective treatment would allow things to move significantly faster.

Well we have one and not the other.

GreeBo

Jimbobjoeyman wrote: »

an effective treatment would do a lot to de-risk covid and would be preferable to vaccination as it wouldn't rely on a large amount of the population to take it.
While vaccines are one of the best ways of managing things in our current state an effective treatment would allow things to move significantly faster.

Define what "an effective treatment" would mean in a COVID context though....?

For clarity, I'm starting from "A vaccine is the best effective treatment".

Jimbobjoeyman

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well we have one and not the other.

An alternative was asked for.
In an ideal scenario we'd have both but were not in an ideal scenario.
we have a number of treatments already but no silver bullet as of yet but there is a lot of promising stuff in the pipeline especially in the UK.

Jimbobjoeyman

GreeBo wrote: »

Define what "an effective treatment" would mean in a COVID context though....?

For clarity, I'm starting from "A vaccine is the best effective treatment".

I'd class an effective treatment as something that can be given over the counter with a prescription that treats the symptoms and allows someone to recover at home safely.

It's not covid itself that kills people it's their own immune system overreacting and then a chain reaction if this can be avoided its an effective treatment imo.

sdanseo

pconn062 wrote: »

I am pro vaccine but would be strongly opposed to this idea. Having to carry a certificate to do simple things like go for a meal or to a shopping center doesn't sit right with me at all, and I see businesses really fighting against it as they struggle to build their businesses back up.

The alternative for the next six months or so until meaningful proportions of populations get vaccinated is to keep the businesses closed.

If I owned a restaurant for example and could open with 30% of my customers, vs staying closed, knowing that 70% of staff wages would still be covered by the EWSS - it's a no brainer.

Few businesses operate at 100% capacity much of the time so there is a misnomer there too. If your business operates at 60-70% full on average; it's doing well.
Demand with 30% will outstrip supply so effectively the revenue should be closer to half what it would be in normal times.

GT89

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The term "Tiered society" is pejorative.

The issue is whether people are allowed behave in anti social way.


All societies have restrictions, there is no major city in the world where you can walk about naked, for instance.



The way to end restrictions for everyone is to have a vaccine and then only restrict people refusing to get one.

Well it's already been that the vaccine won't stop getting covid and won't stop you spreading it either. So what's the point on mandatory vaccines if they won't stop you spreading it other than as a means of control.

sdanseo

Jimbobjoeyman wrote: »

I'd class an effective treatment as something that can be given over the counter with a prescription that treats the symptoms and allows someone to recover at home safely.

It's not covid itself that kills people it's their own immune system overreacting and then a chain reaction if this can be avoided its an effective treatment imo.

This isn't necessarily true. Cytokine storms have occurred in COVID-19, but are not seen as the major cause of death. Vitamin D, which boosts the immune system, is very much recognised as having profound effects in reducing incidence and severity. Severity is the key word there.

Now that said, I have had covid and vs people my age (32) probably was slightly worse than average. I'm a bit overweight and not the fittest, but I took Vitamin D3 religiously since last March. Do those things balance out? Would I have been worse off without the supplement? We simply do not know.

The truth is we really are still learning about the thing. Time will only tell if in 2, 5, 10, 20, 30 years, people have any lasting effects.

Sleeper12

pconn062 wrote:

Do you foresee a future where restaurants have vaccinated and non vaccinated sections in Ireland?

No. I could see business only allowing clients with a vaccination passport use the business. I could see the logic in the government allowing businesses open earlier than planned for vaccination passports only. I can see airlines not allowing you on a plane without a vaccination passport.

The vaccine passport is a short term idea and not a permanent one. Once the virus is suppressed worldwide then it won't matter much if you have a vaccination or not. The majority with the vaccine will create herd immunity