Young Irish Players

CrazyFather1

Just listening to the RTE podcast and I know Jackman has mentioned this before on other podcast. If you haven't listened to the podcast it discuss's the fact young French players are put into ProD2 and get game time. Then can move back.

With the four provinces starting to produce young talent we are starting to get a bit of a bottleneck. Young players are struggling to get game time against top teams. Now hopefully the ProXX quality increases but we still only have 4 teams and we still need to give the senior pro's game time.

I thought the ROG move for Crowley should have been allowed, Munster now have Carbery(hopefully), JJ, Healy, Crowley. Yes I know injuries and all that but that is a back log. Similar we have issues at Leinster etc.

At this stage should the IRFU look for a route for these young players?

bayern

Where?

Pro d2? the championship? New Zealand?

young players get game time, if they play well, they often get more game time and progress. Simple.

unfortunately due to covid the AIL has been removed as pathway for young players to develop, until that returns there will be some young players not getting enough game time, but not sure the IRFU can solve that issue at the moment.

UAEguy2020

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Just listening to the RTE podcast and I know Jackman has mentioned this before on other podcast. If you haven't listened to the podcast it discuss's the fact young French players are put into ProD2 and get game time. Then can move back.

With the four provinces starting to produce young talent we are starting to get a bit of a bottleneck. Young players are struggling to get game time against top teams. Now hopefully the ProXX quality increases but we still only have 4 teams and we still need to give the senior pro's game time.

I thought the ROG move for Crowley should have been allowed, Munster now have Carbery(hopefully), JJ, Healy, Crowley. Yes I know injuries and all that but that is a back log. Similar we have issues at Leinster etc.

At this stage should the IRFU look for a route for these young players?

We are getting bottled necked because in key positions we are keeping average players like Hanrahan and wasting potential game time on him when it could be used with Healy.

Poorside

Let them play in the Ail, would improve the quality of both the competition and the players. Too many spend time on the sidelines because of 'A' games. A draft system for clubs in their home province would probably be the fairest way to do it.

CrazyFather1

bayern wrote: »

Where?

Pro d2? the championship? New Zealand?

young players get game time, if they play well, they often get more game time and progress. Simple.

unfortunately due to covid the AIL has been removed as pathway for young players to develop, until that returns there will be some young players not getting enough game time, but not sure the IRFU can solve that issue at the moment.

The players in academy don't play in the AIL.

Young players don't get game time, that's the whole point of the discussion. H Byrne is older than DuPoint etc. It was listed out the options at 10 for France, all younger or same age as H Byrne and all ave 50 starts in Top14 or Europe.

Crowley was going to France to play, in reality we could be 2023 before he is even close to starting in Europe for Munster, not because he isn't good enough but because other players are good and in front of him

CrazyFather1

Poorside wrote: »

Let them play in the Ail, would improve the quality of both the competition and the players. Too many spend time on the sidelines because of 'A' games. A draft system for clubs in their home province would probably be the fairest way to do it.

The AIL is not professional, how would insurance work etc?

Would it not be worthwhile our young players getting some experience in another country/league if they wanted?

bayern

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

The players in academy don't play in the AIL.

Yes they do.

There are many many teamsheets available online that prove this fact.

bayern

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

The players in academy don't play in the AIL.

Young players don't get game time, that's the whole point of the discussion. H Byrne is older than DuPoint etc. It was listed out the options at 10 for France, all younger or same age as H Byrne and all ave 50 starts in Top14 or Europe.

Crowley was going to France to play, in reality we could be 2023 before he is even close to starting in Europe for Munster, not because he isn't good enough but because other players are good and in front of him

Dupont is 24 years old. Harry Byrne is not older than him.

Harry Byrne made his debut at 20 for Leinster, he was still in school at 18. Not sure how much faster they could have progressed him given he was playing irish 20s for 2 seasons which were a priority for his development and he dealt with injuries as he matured physically.

Since debuting he has played 18 times Leinster while also having lost appearances due to injury and covid. He is still just 21.

Those French 10s all entered pro setups at a much earlier age than Irish 10s, leaving school earlier etc. They also play in a better organised deeper league with more teams so of course there are more development opportunities.

CrazyFather1

bayern wrote: »

Yes they do.

There are many many teamsheets available online that prove this fact.

Wasn't aware, wasn't it a big discussion before and I thought the provinces had decided they wouldn't play?
Do all the academy player also play in AIL?

bayern

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Wasn't aware, wasn't it a big discussion before and I thought the provinces had decided they wouldn't play?
Do all the academy player also play in AIL?

Academy players played AIL when they were fit and available.. sometimes they've not been available due to Irish u20s or provincial commitments.

CrazyFather1

bayern wrote: »

Academy players played AIL when they were fit and available.. sometimes they've not been available due to Irish u20s or provincial commitments.

No harm to the AIL but really it doesn't seem to be giving the academy players they challenge they need.

I personally don't see the issue with shipping off some young players to another league for a season or two, with the option to return, while they get experience

bayern

bayern wrote: »

Dupont is 24 years old. Harry Byrne is not older than him.

Harry Byrne made his debut at 20 for Leinster, he was still in school at 18. Not sure how much faster they could have progressed him given he was playing irish 20s for 2 seasons which were a priority for his development and he dealt with injuries as he matured physically.

Since debuting he has played 18 times Leinster while also having lost appearances due to injury and covid. He is still just 21.

Those French 10s all entered pro setups at a much earlier age than Irish 10s, leaving school earlier etc. They also play in a better organised deeper league with more teams so of course there are more development opportunities.

He obviously meant N'tamack, not Dupont but you knew that.

what you state in bold above effectively means that young 10's in Ireland are at a disadvantage in terms of development. 10's need game time for development above all other positions.

this has been thrown into sharp relief in the current 10 crisis.

Ireland are at a disadvantage by now not having developed the potential fully compared to what players in other countries, say France can do.

not just N'tamack, Jalibert playing today, Carbonel.

in England you have Smith, Umaga..

some creative solutions should be looked at, instead of just saying that it is what it is

bayern

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

No harm to the AIL but really it doesn't seem to be giving the academy players they challenge they need.

I personally don't see the issue with shipping off some young players to another league for a season or two, with the option to return, while they get experience

How is that?

You don't seem to have much knowledge of AIL and how academy players perform at that level, so to make such a statement seems to reaching, at best.

CrazyFather1

bayern wrote: »

How is that?

You don't seem to have much knowledge of AIL and how academy players perform at that level, so to make such a statement seems to reaching, at best.

Have you listened to the podcast? you had Jackman etc all discussing this. It is not a new topic. Is Jackman not a coach in the AIL.
Not one of them mentioned using the AIL.

I am sure it was discussed on the 42 podcast as well.
I expect Jackman knows a little more than me or you.

bayern

glasso wrote: »

He obviously meant N'tamack, not Dupont but you knew that.

what you state in bold above effectively means that young 10's in Ireland are at a disadvantage in terms of development. 10's need game time for development above all other positions.

this has been thrown into sharp relief in the current 10 crisis.

Ireland are at a disadvantage by now not having developed the potential fully compared to what players in other countries, say France can do.

not just N'tamack, Jalibert playing today, Carbonel.

in England you have Smith, Umaga..

some creative solutions should be looked at, instead of just saying that it is what it is

I would say 9's need just as much game time as 10's to develop.

so what you'd have young irish outhalves leave school at 16?

or sent to france or england upon leaving school for a season?

Buer

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Have you listened to the podcast? you had Jackman etc all discussing this. It is not a new topic. Is Jackman not a coach in the AIL.
Not one of them mentioned using the AIL.

Jackman coaches in the Leinster Senior League and doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

CrazyFather1

Buer wrote: »

Jackman coaches in the Leinster Senior League and doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

Which professional clubs have you coached?

Squidgy Black

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Have you listened to the podcast? you had Jackman etc all discussing this. It is not a new topic. Is Jackman not a coach in the AIL.
Not one of them mentioned using the AIL.

I am sure it was discussed on the 42 podcast as well.
I expect Jackman knows a little more than me or you.

Nope Jackman's a coach for Bective in the Leinster League. Isn't involved in the AIL at all, and hasn't really been for quite some time.

bayern

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Have you listened to the podcast? you had Jackman etc all discussing this. It is not a new topic. Is Jackman not a coach in the AIL.
Not one of them mentioned using the AIL.

I am sure it was discussed on the 42 podcast as well.
I expect Jackman knows a little more than me or you.

Bernard Jackman the fountain of all rugby knowledge isn't an AIL coach.

CrazyFather1

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Nope Jackman's a coach for Bective in the Leinster League. Isn't involved in the AIL at all, and hasn't really been for quite some time.

I wasn't aware. I would expect he has more experience of the professional game in both Ireland & France. The AIL was never mentioned by anyone, not just Jackman

pickarooney

bayern wrote: »

Dupont is 24 years old. Harry Byrne is not older than him.

Harry Byrne made his debut at 20 for Leinster, he was still in school at 18. Not sure how much faster they could have progressed him given he was playing irish 20s for 2 seasons which were a priority for his development and he dealt with injuries as he matured physically.

Since debuting he has played 18 times Leinster while also having lost appearances due to injury and covid. He is still just 21.

Those French 10s all entered pro setups at a much earlier age than Irish 10s, leaving school earlier etc. They also play in a better organised deeper league with more teams so of course there are more development opportunities.

Ntamack finished school at 18 after his leaving cert equivalent. Jalibert too. Dupont has a college degree.

bayern

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

I wasn't aware. I would expect he has more experience of the professional game in both Ireland & France. The AIL was never mentioned by anyone, not just Jackman

that doesn't mean it's not without merit.

bayern

bayern wrote: »

I would say 9's need just as much game time as 10's to develop.

so what you'd have young irish outhalves leave school at 16?

or sent to france or england upon leaving school for a season?

Jackman proposed loans here

https://www.the42.ie/the42-rugby-weekly-out-half-5352148-Feb2021/

it's done in other sports like soccer all the time.

it's not rocket science

with only 4 teams, poor pro 14 games, stacked roster (including guys who will be never consistent upper international class ahead in pecking order)

a bit of creativity is needed

the IRFU and the provinces could work it out if the desire is there

already had the opportunity with the afore mentioned ROG La Rochelle opp.

bayern

pickarooney wrote: »

Ntamack finished school at 18 after his leaving cert equivalent. Jalibert too. Dupont has a college degree.

thats interesting I'm no expert on the french education system..

I guess then do people want to see Irish 18 year olds playing professional rugby immediately upon leaving school and not spending a season or two maturing on and off the field playing irish 20's and AIL rugby?

CrazyFather1

bayern wrote: »

that doesn't mean it's not without merit.

Sorry I will take the opinion of professional coach's, Lenihan was also on the podcast and he is heavily invested in Cork Con, AIL I think

Sticking a load of young players into a non professional league? while at the same time French players are playing in a professional league.

CrazyFather1

bayern wrote: »

thats interesting I'm no expert on the french education system..

I guess then do people want to see Irish 18 year olds playing professional rugby immediately upon leaving school and not spending a season or two maturing on and off the field playing irish 20's and AIL rugby?

Maybe listen to the podcast, it is covered in detail. Plus it is not every player. It would be those ready.

bayern

glasso wrote: »

Jackman proposed loans here

https://www.the42.ie/the42-rugby-weekly-out-half-5352148-Feb2021/

it's done in other sports like soccer all the time.

it's not rocket science

with only 4 teams, poor pro 14 games, stacked roster (including guys who will be never consistent upper international class ahead in pecking order)

a bit of creativity is needed

the IRFU and the provinces could work it out if the desire is there

already had the opportunity with the afore mentioned ROG La Rochelle opp.

so someone like Harry Byrne should have been loaned to a french team when he left school or when?

after his irish 20's seasons?

Mimon

Loaning out to English and French second divisions would probably work from the provinces POV and for these teams also.

bayern

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Maybe listen to the podcast, it is covered in detail. Plus it is not every player. It would be those ready.

i've listened to it. it's not covered in detail, loans are thrown out as some sort of panacea to all irish rugbys ills when it comes to developing young players.

An issue that does not exist in Leinster.

bayern

bayern wrote: »

so loan who? Harry Byrne to a french team when was 19?

or 20 more apt probably

yes. why not. France or England.

somewhere where there is a demand and where he'll get better quality games and then come back in a year.

It's not like they were going to play him much in Ireland aside from low-quality games where little is learned during that year.

and he wasn't developed (due to above) so was not going to be playing internationally.

it's pretty simple stuff.

bayern

Mimon wrote: »

Loaning out to English and French second divisions would probably work from the provinces POV and for these teams also.

at what age?

pickarooney

Mimon wrote: »

Loaning out to English and French second divisions would probably work from the provinces POV and for these teams also.

It could seriously backfire. Moving to France at 18 without a proper support network could break a player as easily as make him. I wouldn't recommend it for most kids. It's not like an Erasmus year abroad, you'd be expected to commit fully to a professional environment as well as manage life in a new country with a new language.

bayern

glasso wrote: »

or 20 more apt probably

yes. why not. France or England.

somewhere where there is a demand and where he'll get better quality games and then come back in a year.

It's not like they were going to play him much in Ireland aside from low-quality games where little is learned during that year.

and he wasn't developed (due to above) so was not going to be playing internationally.

it's pretty simple stuff.

So Harry Byrne has not developed in the 18 games of rugby he has played since making his leinster debut at 20?

That's certainly an interesting theory.

That he'd be better off playing pro D2 or championship rugby than playing for Leinster.

The system isn't perfect but to suggest he'd be better off playing 2nd division rugby in england or france says more about the attitude you have toward irish rugby than anything else.

pickarooney

pickarooney wrote: »

It could seriously backfire. Moving to France at 18 without a proper support network could break a player as easily as make him. I wouldn't recommend it for most kids. It's not like an Erasmus year abroad, you'd be expected to commit fully to a professional environment as well as manage life in a new country with a new language.

could be done at 20 if in a backlog situation.

e.g. Harry Byrne could have benefited in the last year.

he hasn't been developed anywhere near the level to be considered for international

Jalibert, Cabonnel, N'tamack, Smith, Umaga have

he could have benefitted. they got better opportunities. they are more developed.

and with consent of the player, consideration of his resilience, monitoring of same, checking in advance what measures the foreign club would have in place for integration etc

these things can be checked / considered and monitored.

Mimon

bayern wrote: »

at what age?

Would depend on a lot of factors. If an academy player is good enough for Pro14 but has 3/4 players in that position ahead of him then send him off for a season. You seem to be against this and looking for imaginary hurdles to overcome. It is very doable.

bayern

i'm not against it in every scenario, just don't see it as a necessity.

UAEguy2020

Playing pro14 games does seem to do Garbisi much harm at all...

UAEguy2020

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Playing pro14 games does seem to do Garbisi much harm at all... if anything looks more of a star in his early games than any of the French 10s did in their early games (granted Ntamack has started looking like a world class player as he’s gone on).

He looks decent but he's likely to never win more than a couple or 3 of games against tier-1 teams over his whole career

I would have thought that maybe Ireland is aiming higher than that

It would only be needed in positions like Harry Byrne is in right now or was in over the last year or two

he would have benefitted for sure from

1. actually getting more games, pro 14 or not

2. getting some better quality games also

salmocab

glasso wrote: »

He looks decent but he's likely to never win more than a couple or 3 of games against tier-1 teams over his whole career

I would have thought that maybe Ireland is aiming higher than that

It would only be needed in positions like Harry Byrne is in right now or was in over the last year or two

he would have benefitted for sure from

1. actually getting more games, pro 14 or not

2. getting some better quality games also

He’d also be in massive danger of having the game time in Leinster he currently gets going to someone else and then not being needed. Top prospects are not going to want to not be with the top players. Especially in Leinster where a new shiny thing arrives every few days.

salmocab

salmocab wrote: »

He’d also be in massive danger of having the game time in Leinster he currently gets going to someone else and then not being needed. Top prospects are not going to want to not be with the top players. Especially in Leinster where a new shiny thing arrives every few days.

Leinster and Harry Byrne would have agreed the deal with the view to improve him in the first place (come back more developed) and he'd be coming back in a year, not 3 years

this sort of talk is pure rubbish

if some absolute phenom came along and blew everyone out of the water so be it but that is extremely unlikely

salmocab

glasso wrote: »

Leinster and Harry Byrne would have agreed the deal with the view to improve him in the first place (come back more developed) and he'd be coming back in a year, not 3 years

this sort of talk is pure rubbish

if some absolute phenom came along and blew everyone out of the water so be it but that is extremely unlikely

He still would be giving up game time at a top club with top players and coaches for more time with lesser players and probably coaches.
Your line about pure rubbish means nothing more than you disagree but can’t do it without resorting to dismissive nonsense.

he wouldn't be going / have gone in the first place if that was the case



he'd be going / would have gone to get

1. more games

2. better games than the softest pro 14 games.


Jalibert, N'tamack, Cabonel, Smith, Umaga

players of similar age or indeed younger who have far more development opportunities and experience.

two of the French are established internationals at this point


Byrne is not at the races compared to these guys because he has only played only 18 pro 14 games and to boot 18 games of low intensity / low development potential

bilston

I think we'd be better off strengthening the AIL.

Maybe reduce the top league to 8 clubs, but you'd somehow have to ensure that Ulster and Connacht are represented as well. Maybe you ring fence it. But that wouldn't go down well with the clubs and I probably wouldn't be in favour of it either.

Perhaps the onus should be on the provinces to ensure that Academy players and fringe squad players are spread amongst only 3 clubs max in each province, again the clubs, and maybe even players wouldn't fancy that.

A lot of the problem with loaning out players in the academy system is that the majority of them are studying at 3rd level while they go through the academy process.

Thats not something that will be taken away lightly as the likes of Rugby Players Ireland would encourage them to be studying so when their playing days come to an end, they have something to fall back on.

I think a secondary tier competition comprising of the A teams of the Pro14 sides would be a good idea. Play them 2 hours before the kick off of the 1st team game.

Dana White Squash

Dana White Squash wrote: »

A lot of the problem with loaning out players in the academy system is that the majority of them are studying at 3rd level while they go through the academy process.

Thats not something that will be taken away lightly as the likes of Rugby Players Ireland would encourage them to be studying so when their playing days come to an end, they have something to fall back on.

I think a secondary tier competition comprising of the A teams of the Pro14 sides would be a good idea. Play them 2 hours before the kick off of the 1st team game.

a lot of 3rd level students are doing studies this year without being anywhere near the university....

could that be possible for 1 player for 1 year - quite possibly.....

Clareman

Having 4 professional teams means well have 4 players for every position but in reality there'll be more from 1 team than another, for the Irish 6 Nations squad there's 17 Leinster players but only 4 Connacht and 5 Ulster players, than means that Leinster reserve players get a lot more game time than Connacht or Ulster reserves but it also means that good reserves for Leinster will struggle to get European match experience.

In an ideal world you'd have a situation where players would be spread out amongst the 4 provinces and there'd be an even spread but why should Leinster be penalised for being successful at developing top class players? When Munster were the top dogs they weren't farming out players, being a provincial setup means than players are attached to a region, very few Dublin young people dream of playing for Munster, few Limerick people dream of playing for Ulster, etc etc

In my opinion having 1 national team being fed by 4 provinces each fed by an academy is a decent setup but when 1 province is providing a lot more than the others there's going to be bottlenecks, personally I think linking academy players to university scholarships is an option to be explored, I'm sure there aren't many 18 year old Dubs who'd turn down a 4 year scholarship to NUIG/UL/Queens on the condition that they play for Connacht/Munster/Queens. For the exceptionally good players there's the opportunity to skip college or get a scholarship in their home university.

pickarooney

glasso wrote: »

he wouldn't be going / have gone in the first place if that was the case



he'd be going / would have gone to get

1. more games

2. better games than the softest pro 14 games.


Jalibert, N'tamack, Cabonel, Smith, Umaga

players of similar age or indeed younger who have far more development opportunities and experience.

two of the French are established internationals at this point


Byrne is not at the races compared to these guys because he has only played only 18 pro 14 games and to boot 18 games of low intensity / low development potential

Ntamack had a few washed-up journeymen ahead of him at Toulouse and Ramos and he were sharing OH duties with each of them more than capable of playing in other positions. He obviously had the talent and pedigree and shone at the JWC. He took his chance at the 10 shirt which was up for grabs.

I don't know if Harry Byrne can play any other position but Leinster are not short of 12s and 15s. Following the example of Carbery that still might not have been enough

bayern

Clareman wrote: »

Having 4 professional teams means well have 4 players for every position but in reality there'll be more from 1 team than another, for the Irish 6 Nations squad there's 17 Leinster players but only 4 Connacht and 5 Ulster players, than means that Leinster reserve players get a lot more game time than Connacht or Ulster reserves but it also means that good reserves for Leinster will struggle to get European match experience.

In an ideal world you'd have a situation where players would be spread out amongst the 4 provinces and there'd be an even spread but why should Leinster be penalised for being successful at developing top class players? When Munster were the top dogs they weren't farming out players, being a provincial setup means than players are attached to a region, very few Dublin young people dream of playing for Munster, few Limerick people dream of playing for Ulster, etc etc

In my opinion having 1 national team being fed by 4 provinces each fed by an academy is a decent setup but when 1 province is providing a lot more than the others there's going to be bottlenecks, personally I think linking academy players to university scholarships is an option to be explored, I'm sure there aren't many 18 year old Dubs who'd turn down a 4 year scholarship to NUIG/UL/Queens on the condition that they play for Connacht/Munster/Queens. For the exceptionally good players there's the opportunity to skip college or get a scholarship in their home university.

you don't have to be academy standard to get a university scholarship at present so not sure how much of a temptation that would be, not to mention not many 18 year old dubs fancy leaving das capital for university, especially those from south dublin private schools.

young players want to play for their home province, this is not a bad thing.

Harry Byrne is not an example of someone who has not been developed in the irish system, he has been fast tracked as much as possible considering the irish system, his own development curve, covid and injuries.

bayern

bayern wrote: »

you don't have to be academy standard to get a university scholarship at present so not sure how much of a temptation that would be, not to mention not many 18 year old dubs fancy leaving das capital for university, especially those from south dublin private schools.

young players want to play for their home province, this is not a bad thing.

Harry Byrne is not an example of someone who has not been developed in the irish system, he has been fast tracked as much as possible considering the irish system, his own development curve, covid and injuries.

yes

but there are multiple examples of players in France and England who are far more developed at the same age

why should the Irish system hold players back?

if there is an obvious case of it doing so, other options should be explored instead of just accepting the status quo

the dynamism of a 10 in their early 20's who has the requisite development and experience to operate at test level is something to behold and does not last that long

we're going to see it in Jalibert this afternoon.

CrazyFather1

Crowley - 21
Byrne - 21
Healy - 21

That is just a view of the talent Ireland has at 21.
If a player like Crowley wants to move and can put into contract XYZ. Then why stop him, I am not talking about just letting them loose, the IRFU would have to put in some sort of program which allowed them to move and come back.
It's an idea which a few seem to want to throw up excuses why it shouldn't work. I am looking at the positives. Having just 4 provinces is creating a road block for talent.

bayern

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Crowley - 21
Byrne - 21
Healy - 21

That is just a view of the talent Ireland has at 21.
If a player like Crowley wants to move and can put into contract XYZ. Then why stop him, I am not talking about just letting them loose, the IRFU would have to put in some sort of program which allowed them to move and come back.
It's an idea which a few seem to want to throw up excuses why it shouldn't work. I am looking at the positives. Having just 4 provinces is creating a road block for talent.

Crowley had the option to move but decided not to.