Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

acequion

Donald Trump wrote: »

So you want some "evidence" but on the condition that it is only taken from this thread and not what you post which is outright contradictory on other threads? Is this part of the same logical dissonance that what goes on "over there" has a different set of alternate facts to the ones that are here? And that mental segregation allows one to choose which set one wants to suit their argument for any particular case - even if contradictory?



How do you flip-flop between a stance that the virus isn't that big of a deal and therefore we should be all allowed to travel willy nilly and the below from a few weeks ago:





(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115841312&postcount=770)



It is a valid question. I'm trying to understand the dissonance that is going on and to ascertain whether or not there is any underlying logical argument there at all that allows you to do it? You seem to be aware of the potential consequences of a teacher catching it and spreading it locally, but unaware of the consequences of international travellers catching it (or variants) and bringing it in. To me, a local outbreak is far less serious on a macro level because it can be contained. In the UK, they had a case recently where they needed hundreds of people to work on frantically tracking down a recent arrival from Brazil.



I can follow the arguments of those who might say that schools and travel should be fully stopped/closed.

I can follow the arguments of those who say that both schools and travel should be fully open.

I can also follow the argument that schools are more essential than leisure travel and therefore would be a higher priority to open.

I just cannot follow your argument. It seems very contradictory. I am giving you an opportunity to clarify. You might have some logic behind it.

Wow, just wow!! Going into my post history and dredging up a post from the 7th January last on an entirely different thread, in fact different forum!! Have you really nothing better to do?

I asked for evidence from this thread. But as I expected, you could find none as I post relevant to each thread.

You are "giving me an opportunity" Wow again! Because actually I'm under no obligation to respond to your interrogations and have already told you that I don't want to engage with you.

But briefly, here is my stance. The Govt of this country are an absolute disaster. Their measures in every sector are illogical and disproportionate. Back in early January they wanted to expose the country's teachers and some school children to potential contamination when cases numbers were at 8.000 per day and deaths were increasing at an alarming rate. And everything else was closed. This was unacceptable to me and I fully supported the intervention of my union. I have no problem with strict temporary lockdowns where all but the most essential services are curtailed, including strict travel bans. Where I have a problem is the continuation of draconian restrictions where said restrictions are disproportionate to the risks. I am back in school now and very happy to be there. I support the opening up of the economy at this point in addition to permitting travel with reasonable restrictions. I have not travelled anywhere abroad since last summer, I've not been outside my county since October and that was to be hospitalised and have always fully complied with the restrictions though I have found and still find them excessive.

This is my last post to you on this or any other matter.

Blut2

caveat emptor wrote: »

lol

https://twitter.com/JulienMercille/status/1353456171911409665?s=20

From the sounds of the article thats linking numerous cases that were spread after landing, to one case that was on the flight. Its also pre PCR tests being required for flights. So it doesn't exactly prove much.

Its also like posting a link to an article about one single airplane crashing so all flights are liable to crash. Exceptions happen. They don't change the overall statistics:

Inflight COVID-19 transmission is extremely rare. Since the start of 2020[article written in November 2020], there have been 44 confirmed or possible cases of COVID-19 associated with a flight. Over the same period, some 1.2 billion passengers have traveled. That equates to one case for every 27 million travelers.

https://airlines.iata.org/analysis/extremely-low-risk-of-viral-transmission-inflight

The odds of being hit by lightning in your lifetime are about 1 in 500,000, for comparison.

Ray Donovan

FrStone wrote: »

The good news is Ryanair announced they are to re start 8 routes from Belfast. Looks like we will all be meeting in Belfast Airport for a pint.

Actually, are many planning a few days in the UK in June? A west end show would be lovely!

Do you know what routes? And any source for the info? Thanks

Plumbthedepths

Ray Donovan wrote: »

Do you know what routes? And any source for the info? Thanks

Here you go.
https://www.thejournal.ie/belfast-ryanair-new-routes-5371937-Mar2021/

gozunda

acequion wrote: »

First off I neither appreciate your tone nor your attitude and generally don't bother talking to posters who're just trying to provoke.

As for your last comment, be very careful what you wish for! While you might cheerlead draconian restrictions on movement and rudely encourage me, who you don't even know, to emigrate, these policies could well spark another wave of emigration out of here in the foreseeable taking away our best and brightest as has happened over and over in our past.

And while you might wish that every place was as restricted as here, the plain fact is that it's not. Yes a few countries have needed to impose temporary travel bans and no the list does not go on. And there is no other EU country fining their citizens for leaving. The UK are no longer in the EU however their leaders are keen to reassure their citizens that democratic principles still prevail and hence have provided a roadmap back to normality. We have none of that here and have no idea how long these fines will continue or if the noose will be tightened further on non essential travel. And that hugely bothers some of us. Too bad if you can neither understand or respect other viewpoints apart from your own.

I'd imagine it would be useful to step down off the high horse tone in that comment. To reiterate my previous comment was firmly directed at the absolute stupidity of trying to imply that only Ireland aka what you called this "sad, miserable little backwater of a country" has imposed restrictions on leisure travel. That my friend is absolute rubbish.

And btw I did forget to point out that your previous premise is also incorrect. "Freedom of movement" in the EU has not been suspended here. Travel for essential purposes is still very much protected.

But of note I see you have even ditched that apparent concern for now wailing about those in deliberate breech of current restrictions being fined. And yes many other countries EU and others have imposed various fines on leisure travel as a means to discourage people doing from what you are "cheerleading" for (one of your favourite words apparently)

If you really and bizarrely believe that restrictions here and abroad are going to lead to a 'wave of emigration' - then there's a hell of a lot of countries where those wanting to go on the annual pissup all the way to covid deniers are going to be leaving en mass. Where? God knows cos I can't see any country facilitating them. Maybe a nice uninhabited island of the west coast of Scotland

And indeed it is really too bad if you can neither understand or respect other viewpoints nor the reality of a global pandemic.

faceman

themacattack. wrote: »

i would be more worried about getting on a boeing 737 max than catching covid on the plane being honest

Bahahahahahahahaha!

BURN!

acequion

gozunda wrote: »

. And yes many other countries EU and others have imposed vsrious fines on leisure travel as a means to discourage people doing from what you are cheerleading (one of your favourite words apparently)

Could we have specific evidence of this in the EU only please? Because as a citizen of the EU, that is what concerns me and that is what I've been referring to. Not places in some other part of the globe.

Plumbthedepths

https://www.hortidaily.com/article/9301454/concerns-growing-as-4-000-seasonal-fruit-pickers-will-arrive-in-ireland-over-coming-weeks/

Meanwhile Irish citizens run the gauntlet if they wish to travel.

caveat emptor

Blut2 wrote: »

From the sounds of the article thats linking numerous cases that were spread after landing, to one case that was on the flight. Its also pre PCR tests being required for flights. So it doesn't exactly prove much.

Its also like posting a link to an article about one single airplane crashing so all flights are liable to crash. Exceptions happen. They don't change the overall statistics:



https://airlines.iata.org/analysis/extremely-low-risk-of-viral-transmission-inflight

The odds of being hit by lightning in your lifetime are about 1 in 500,000, for comparison.

When a plane crashes you can see. When someone picks up a covid infection it could have come from anywhere.

Only reason we know about this spread on the plane is because there was proper contact tracing done and genome sequencing to prove the single source infection.

I think it makes some people feel better by dividing small numbers by big numbers to make even smaller numbers. If that's what your into fair enough.


How many cases where contact traced to planes? How many were sequenced to show common source infection. That paper is the only evidence that it's ever been done. Just bear in mind your numerator in the equation is massively inaccurate and therefore so is your risk calculation.

But we both know this.

Yapamillias

caveat emptor wrote: »

It's great really. It allows people to live in an alternative universe devoid of challenges to their preconceived notions.

People who say "ignore button is great" tend to read the post so I'm not sure what good it serves them.

"It's impossible to catch it on a plane statistically" is a false statement.

Don't let the truth get in the way. Ignore or don't ignore it's still false.

https://twitter.com/amymaxmen/status/1320811661717131264?s=20

If this was in the Summer then there was no PCR testing and no temp checks before boarding, as far as I know. At least there was not when I returned home around then.

I never believed that you could not catch it on a plane so I know they have been pushing HEPA filters on planes...my Dyson airblade also has a HEPA filter.

Having been on flights the last 12 months and being a fan of trying to live with Covid then in Ireland it makes sense to;

- Have PCR test within 48 hours of flying (Most organized countries can have a 48 hour turnaround time no prob)
- Masks and temp checks before flying
- The last part is the most important. Either we put EVERYONE in hotels for 5 days - recheck after 5 days and release once negative.

OR

- 14 days for non nationals in hotel and proper contact tracing and home quarantine for nationals complete with 5th day PCR test organized and paid for prior to travel. Harsh penalties for not attending.

DubLad69

Is there any travel insurance that covers you when travelling against Government advice?

Del Griffith

caveat emptor wrote: »

When a plane crashes you can see. When someone picks up a covid infection it could have come from anywhere.

Only reason we know about this spread on the plane is because there was proper contact tracing done and genome sequencing to prove the single source infection.

I think it makes some people feel better by dividing small numbers by big numbers to make even smaller numbers. If that's what your into fair enough.


How many cases where contact traced to planes? How many were sequenced to show common source infection. That paper is the only evidence that it's ever been done. Just bear in mind your numerator in the equation is massively inaccurate and therefore so is your risk calculation.

But we both know this.

As yes, so instead of working with the data we do have (apart from when it suits you - one single plane of 1000s), we should make wild unbased assumptions from data that we don't have, as per your post above, and impose restrictions based off that blank page?

You should apply for a job in NPHET.

We have not as far as I know done contact tracing and genome sequencing back to wellies. Ergo, let's ban wellies. Can't be too careful.

IQO

DubLad69 wrote: »

Is there any travel insurance that covers you when travelling against Government advice?

Yes, I took a policy with https://www.battleface.com/en-gb

gozunda

caveat emptor wrote: »

When a plane crashes you can see. When someone picks up a covid infection it could have come from anywhere.

Only reason we know about this spread on the plane is because there was proper contact tracing done and genome sequencing to prove the single source infection.

I think it makes some people feel better by dividing small numbers by big numbers to make even smaller numbers. If that's what your into fair enough.

How many cases where contact traced to planes? How many were sequenced to show common source infection. That paper is the only evidence that it's ever been done. Just bear in mind your numerator in the equation is massively inaccurate and therefore so is your risk calculation.

Looks like its not the only study to do so and this where PCR tests were being used by those flying.

Also shows that PCR tests are not the protective amulet for ignoring restrictions and flying off on yer holidays that some seem to think they are

Many countries now require a negative Covid-19 test to avoid quarantine upon entry. Typically a polymerase chain reaction (PCR) test is required about 48 or 72 hours before departure. The PCR test, which detects genetic material from the coronavirus, is more accurate than most rapid tests. But both types of tests can produce false negatives. ...

But already there are problems and concerns with travel-related testing. Two passengers with negative Covid-19 tests likely infected five others on the same 18-hour trip in September from Dubai to Auckland, New Zealand, according to a scientific study of the incident published in November by the government-run Institute of Environmental Science and Research, based in Wellington

Fake negative-test certificates are already cropping up for sale. Experts and countries disagree on how much testing and what kind of tests should be required for crossing borders....

Perhaps the most extensive research of transmission after pre-travel testing comes from the New Zealand Ministry of Health, which joined with other researchers to study seven infected people who traveled aboard Emirates Flight 448 from Dubai to Auckland on Sept. 29.

Two of the seven were likely infected before traveling but had tested negative in Zurich, Switzerland, within 72 hours of departing on their trip. Four of the seven were likely infected in-flight, the study found, and another likely during mandatory 14-day quarantine in New Zealand required of all passengers.

All seven people had genetically identical strains of the virus, even though the passengers had originated in five different countries. All seven sat within two rows of the presumed spreaders, and all were in aisle seats, the study reported. Travelers reported wearing masks and some wore gloves. There were 86 passengers on the Boeing 777.

The study’s conclusion: Testing didn’t stop infection in this case

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-problems-with-covid-testing-for-flights-11608128492

bluelamp

Yapamillias wrote: »

- 14 days for non nationals in hotel and proper contact tracing and home quarantine for nationals complete with 5th day PCR test organized and paid for prior to travel. Harsh penalties for not attending.

Is there something that makes a non national more dangerous than an Irish person who has been abroad?

faceman

DubLad69 wrote: »

Is there any travel insurance that covers you when travelling against Government advice?

Chill Insurance. Have it in writing from them. Policy doesn’t cover covid obviously

Donald Trump

<snip>

Blut2

caveat emptor wrote: »

When a plane crashes you can see. When someone picks up a covid infection it could have come from anywhere.

Only reason we know about this spread on the plane is because there was proper contact tracing done and genome sequencing to prove the single source infection.

I think it makes some people feel better by dividing small numbers by big numbers to make even smaller numbers. If that's what your into fair enough.

How many cases where contact traced to planes? How many were sequenced to show common source infection. That paper is the only evidence that it's ever been done. Just bear in mind your numerator in the equation is massively inaccurate and therefore so is your risk calculation.

But we both know this.

Ah I see, when presented with actual studies, with hard data, on how likely covid infection is on an airplane your response is "well I have a feeling that the opposite is true".

In the real world decisions get made based on quantifiable facts, thankfully. Which is why airlines are still flying, and people are still taking flights - because all the data shows its not a risky environment in any way.

charlie_says

Looking to go away next month. I will not pay a fine if I am "caught".

A conviction won't affect me in any real way so I don't care about that and I object to that law as it's clearly a non issue for people who earn €200K pa

I plan to have 2x spaced tests when I return and will ignore the isolation after that if they are clear

RobitTV

I'm thinking about going to either England or Spain in April. There is no end in sight in Ireland. I'd be surprised if they go ahead with easing a very small amount of restrictions on April 5th.

Seeing a few Irish people on social media currently abroad makes me wonder what on earth am I still doing here.

I'm only going to book it very close to the time to avoid losing more money.

Jesus you're talking about it long enough, just go if you're gonna go!

Happydays2020

RobitTV wrote: »

I'm thinking about going to either England or Spain in April. There is no end in sight in Ireland. I'd be surprised if they go ahead with easing a very small amount of restrictions on April 5th.

Seeing a few Irish people on social media currently abroad makes me wonder what on earth am I still doing here.

I'm only going to book it very close to the time to avoid losing more money.

I don’t know why you would go to England.

RobitTV

bubblypop wrote: »

Jesus you're talking about it long enough, just go if you're gonna go!

I'm waiting for your permission

I would of been gone many weeks ago if we didn't have a surge in cases back in January and then the clampdown on travel by the government hasn't made the situation any easier. So I've had to hold off for a long time now. I thought the restrictions in Ireland wouldn't be still at the level they are now. I remained hopeful things would change.

RobitTV

Happydays2020 wrote: »

I don’t know why you would go to England.

April 12th is a key date over there. Hopefully everything will go to plan with the vaccine rollout.

mmclo

acequion wrote: »

Fair play to her. Jesus, fingers crossed that those in power recover their senses before it's too late.

She's an outlier on all this, they'll allow a press release but not much else you'd expect

acequion

mmclo wrote: »

She's an outlier on all this, they'll allow a press release but not much else you'd expect

Maybe, but it's still a voice of reason and a voice for Europe coming from within the ranks of our politicians. It only takes one to start, so ya I'll take it!

beggars_bush

Happydays2020 wrote: »

I don’t know why you would go to England.

Going over to have a pint with Nigel Farage

agoodpunt

another month and the mass exit from an indefinite lockdown nation will begin in ernest I have left wont be back till next year when its over.
While everything is open the rules are strict unlike the oppsite in Ireland so prepare and contain your selves out there.

I am subject to restrictions and at least 1 more test having had 2 already but it is such an order process its a pleasure to know I can do all the precivid things next week, so "To Hell With Ireland And its Prolockdowners"

dmcsweeney

agoodpunt wrote: »

"To Hell With Ireland And its Prolockdowners"

They'll all be calling Joe this morning to express their outrage that you're enjoying yourself abroad :pac:. Nice move, I'd be gone too if circumstances would allow. Looking forward to escaping in July though. In the meanwhile I'm stuck here with those sat people who cream themselves at the thought of being locked up. Goes to show how empty some peoples lives are. Enjoy!!

Donald Trump

dmcsweeney wrote: »

They'll all be calling Joe this morning to express their outrage that you're enjoying yourself abroad :pac:. Nice move, I'd be gone too if circumstances would allow. Looking forward to escaping in July though. In the meanwhile I'm stuck here with those sat people who cream themselves at the thought of being locked up. Goes to show how empty some peoples lives are. Enjoy!!

Gas post.


I'd wonder more at the sat (sic) people who cream themselves at the thoughts of a 19.99 flight to the Costa Del Sol (or even the UK - I mean come on - how bad are your life choices here that a random flight to a random part of the UK, as in no specific purpose, is something to publicly shout about?)



There also curiously seem to be plenty on here who love lockdown so much that they'll fight to create the conditions to prolong it. Encouraging others to go out there and bypass or break restrictions so that new and improved variants can be brought in a spread around.



One might compare the situation to a modern day marshmallow test. It is well documented that the results of those tests usually correlate positively to, and are good future indicators of, standardised measures of intelligence.


Most people like to travel and see different things in new places. If you feel that you have to "escape" from something here then you can change your medium- and long-term situation if you really want to. When I go somewhere, it is something that draws me to there. Not something that pushes me from here.

I have a list of places I want to go to and a list of friends around the world that I will visit when this is all over. I'd prefer it if I could go in the Autumn, but if I can't I'll just go later. No big deal in the greater scheme of things. It's not as if it would be my only opportunity to ever go anywhere.