Towing a trailer

DJ98

Looking at buying a new trailer to transport sheep behind car (skoda octavia 1.6). Would I be right in saying that the towing capacity of a car like this would be something like 1450 1500 kgs, so would that include the weight of the trailer aswell? So for talks sake let the trailer weigh 500 kilos, would that mean I could only carry say 15 ewes behind the car, maybe trailers would weigh more. If that was the case I was considering getting an 8x5 with decks, but then this trailer wouldn't be suitable for carrying at full capacity or am I missing something, would something like an 8x4 general purpose trailer be more legal and suitable? I know when you go to the mart you will see trailers of all shapes and sizes with different size loads being towed behind a car but are these people breaking the law? Sorry for the long post and poor explanation but I just can't find a definite answer to this online.

wrangler

DJ98 wrote: »

Looking at buying a new trailer to transport sheep behind car (skoda octavia 1.6). Would I be right in saying that the towing capacity of a car like this would be something like 1450 1500 kgs, so would that include the weight of the trailer aswell? So for talks sake let the trailer weigh 500 kilos, would that mean I could only carry say 15 ewes behind the car, maybe trailers would weigh more. If that was the case I was considering getting an 8x5 with decks, but then this trailer wouldn't be suitable for carrying at full capacity or am I missing something, would something like an 8x4 general purpose trailer be more legal and suitable? I know when you go to the mart you will see trailers of all shapes and sizes with different size loads being towed behind a car but are these people breaking the law? Sorry for the long post and poor explanation but I just can't find a definite answer to this online.

They're breaking the law and not insured but it never seems to be summonsed for

JustAThought

wrangler wrote: »

They're breaking the law and not insured but it never seems to be summonsed for

Wait til they try and make a claim ...

OP - I’ve been watching youtube videos on USA and recreational vehicles & they are big into their towing weights for the cars/trucks & then the towbar loads, towing loading weights and suchlike. Might be of interest to see if the specifications are available on the old fashioned brochures or the car dealership specifications. I remember looking for my car when I was wanting to tow a boat and the detail was in the new sales car catlogue. Also I hd to figure the empty and loaded weight to tow which was no fun. Didn’t do it in the end. Might be of use.

The site I’ve been looking at is called follow your daydream - if you go to that (.com) and search in their site it might give you a stear on all the variables & what to ask for. The terminology is very dense!

selectamatic

https://www.parkers.co.uk/skoda/octavia/hatchback-2013/16-tdi-cr-s-5d/specs/

Braked towing capacity for a 1.6tdi Octavia is 1800kg.

The specs and figures section of parkers.co.uk has towing capacities for most cars listed.

Green farmer

I've a similiar setup. My car is rated to tow 1.8 tonne. I have a 8x5 trailer without decks that weights 725kg. Load 15 lambs at 50kg, so that's total weight of 1,475kg. That's what I carry. Car ain't under any strain. Also assuming you've the correct driving licence

_Brian

I would look at the MAM for the trailer, maximum authorised mass, it’s the maximum loaded weight the trailer is allowed. Also called maximum gross weight.

Then look at the mam for your car also.

The combination of these shouldn’t be over 3500kg for a regular B license.

You can’t half load a large capacity trailer amd be legal if that makes sense.

https://www.iwt.co.uk/products/livestock/ta5/?tab=spec#mobtab

There’s an 8*4 I for with decks, unladen weight just 600kg. Problem is it has maximum a gross weight of 2700kg, your car probably has a maximum gross weight of 2000kg, totalling 4700kg, well beyond the 3500kg of your B license.

Even half loaded or even empty it’s technically breaching your license limit.

lakill Farm

Green farmer wrote: »

I've a similiar setup. My car is rated to tow 1.8 tonne. I have a 8x5 trailer without decks that weights 725kg. Load 15 lambs at 50kg, so that's total weight of 1,475kg. That's what I carry. Car ain't under any strain. Also assuming you've the correct driving licence

B licence covers you for car/jeep & trailer and load up to 3499kg all in

lakill Farm

_Brian wrote: »

I would look at the MAM for the trailer, maximum authorised mass, it’s the maximum loaded weight the trailer is allowed. Also called maximum gross weight.

Then look at the mam for your car also.

The combination of these shouldn’t be over 3500kg for a regular B license.

You can’t half load a large capacity trailer amd be legal if that makes sense.

https://www.iwt.co.uk/products/livestock/ta5/?tab=spec#mobtab

There’s an 8*4 I for with decks, unladen weight just 600kg. Problem is it has maximum a gross weight of 2700kg, your car probably has a maximum gross weight of 2000kg, totalling 4700kg, well beyond the 3500kg of your B license.

Even half loaded or even empty it’s technically breaching your license limit.

also you have to check what the weight capacity of the hitch on the trailer is. Most Ifor type trailers are 3500kg hitch which means the trailer plus about 2.5ton of a load be it behind a car , jeep or tractor

Green farmer

lakill Farm wrote: »

B licence covers you for car/jeep & trailer and load up to 3499kg all in

Ya it's a mine field trying to work out all the permutations dependent on when you got your licence etc, so simplifies it just to get the BE licence ( which I have). With the O.P his going towing with a skoda octavia, so thought that would have been a sensible load. Wouldnt like to go up near the 1.8 tonne max of the car. I've a similiar setup and when you go over the 1.5 tonne you can start to feel it in the handling and strain on the car.

yosemitesam1

Worth checking what the hitch is rated for. Factory fitted hitch on a hilux is rated for 3.2t but the vehicle is rated to pull 3.5t.

Lots of people breaking the law with trailers everyday.

AckwelFoley

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Worth checking what the hitch is rated for. Factory fitted hitch on a hilux is rated for 3.2t but the vehicle is rated to pull 3.5t.

Lots of people breaking the law with trailers everyday.

Hitches aren't rates by tonne. They're rated by D value.

A Bradley or Dixon Bate 4 bolt will often be referred to as a 5 Tonne even though there's no trailer that can be legally towed with them at 5 tonne. The 2 bolt are referred to as 3.5 tonne.

These figures all change depending on the size of trailer AND the size of vehicle

A standard 2 bolt towball is rated for up to 17kn. This measure is the force exerted between the trailer and the towing vehicle.

I have an excel file that calculates different permutations. Very boring, but very necessary

You'll often see the glossy brochures refer to tonnages bit if you ever look at the little plate or label on the hitch they'll refer to Kn.

2018na

Can a 3.5 ton transit tow a 2 ton braked Ifor Williams builder trailer with a B license does anyone know

E36Ross

2018na wrote: »

Can a 3.5 ton transit tow a 2 ton braked Ifor Williams builder trailer with a B license does anyone know

No.

750kg max unless you've a BE

punisher5112

2018na wrote: »

Can a 3.5 ton transit tow a 2 ton braked Ifor Williams builder trailer with a B license does anyone know

No unless all come in at 3500kg in total between the two.

Just get the BE

blackbox

from RSA:

A category B driving licence authorises you to drive a car, van or 4 x 4 which has a maximum mass (as specified by the manufacturer) of not more than 3,500kg and is designed and constructed to carry no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver. You may tow a trailer with a maximum mass (again as specified by the manufacturer) not greater than 750kg, or where the maximum mass is more than 750kg, the combined maximum mass of the towing vehicle and the trailer is not greater than 3,500kg.

A category BE driving licence authorises you to tow a trailer where the combined maximum mass of the towing vehicle and trailer is greater than 3,500kg.

As a general rule, a category B licence does not entitle the holder to tow a horsebox or a livestock trailer because the combined maximum mass would exceed 3,500kg.

E36Ross

AckwelFoley wrote: »

No. You don't have to have a BE licence to pull larger than 750kg if you don't exceed 3500kg total train weight or vehicle limits

He asked specifically about a 3500kg Transit which you can tow MAX 750kg with a normal B.

Explain how I'm wrong with yer quick no.

_Brian

E36Ross wrote: »

He asked specifically about a 3500kg Transit which you can tow MAX 750kg with a normal B.

Explain how I'm wrong with yer quick no.

Your comment about the transit and the 750kg trailer is absolutely correct.

AckwelFoley

E36Ross wrote: »

He asked specifically about a 3500kg Transit which you can tow MAX 750kg with a normal B.

Explain how I'm wrong with yer quick no.

My apologies, you're correct.

It's 3500kg + 750kg max

But if the trailer exceeds 750kg total weight of vehicle and trailer can't exceed 3500kg

punisher5112

E36Ross wrote: »

He asked specifically about a 3500kg Transit which you can tow MAX 750kg with a normal B.

Explain how I'm wrong with yer quick no.

Not necessarily if the van is at 3,500kg then no towing would be permitted under a standard B licence.

Say the van is 2,000kg then that leaves 1,500kg of towable weight.

They will check this if believe to be over and will weigh, they even have scales that are portable.

punisher5112

AckwelFoley wrote: »

My apologies, you're correct.

It's 3500kg + 750kg max

But if the trailer exceeds 750kg total weight of vehicle and trailer can't exceed 3500kg

No it can't go over 3,500kg in total between vehicle and trailer.

AckwelFoley

punisher5112 wrote: »

No it can't go over 3,500kg in total between vehicle and trailer.

That was my understanding also. Particularly with say the van or motorhome if its an oz over the 3500kg on its own.

But the RSAs info explains otherwise

See attached

AckwelFoley

punisher5112 wrote: »

Not necessarily if the van is at 3,500kg then no towing would be permitted under a standard B licence.

Say the van is 2,000kg then that leaves 1,500kg of towable weight.

They will check this if believe to be over and will weigh, they even have scales that are portable.

The exception is with the trailer. If it is under 750kg your.limit on a B licence is actually 4250kg. But if your trailer is over 750lg the trailer needs brakes and your max train weight goes back to 3500kg

punisher5112

AckwelFoley wrote: »

That was my understanding also. Particularly with say the van or motorhome if its an oz over the 3500kg on its own.

But the RSAs info explains otherwise

See attached

Has this changed?

Wasn't aware you could go over that 3,500.

Bass Reeves

DJ98 wrote: »

Looking at buying a new trailer to transport sheep behind car (skoda octavia 1.6). Would I be right in saying that the towing capacity of a car like this would be something like 1450 1500 kgs, so would that include the weight of the trailer aswell? So for talks sake let the trailer weigh 500 kilos, would that mean I could only carry say 15 ewes behind the car, maybe trailers would weigh more. If that was the case I was considering getting an 8x5 with decks, but then this trailer wouldn't be suitable for carrying at full capacity or am I missing something, would something like an 8x4 general purpose trailer be more legal and suitable? I know when you go to the mart you will see trailers of all shapes and sizes with different size loads being towed behind a car but are these people breaking the law? Sorry for the long post and poor explanation but I just can't find a definite answer to this online.

IW also do 4' high trailers. However you seldom see them in Ireland. If you knew you only ever be using the trailer for sheep you would be ok. They are 600kgs for an 8X5. They also do two wheel versions. The other advantage is the reduced drag on such trailer's. This would be ideal with a car but would be awkward if you wished to use it to move furniture. Price difference would be very minimal.

Biggest issue I see is it is getting harder and harder to get a car with decent towing ability. You are heading in the direction of a small jeep to get towing ability. From now on as all new cars will be Hybrid and electric you can forget about towing ability

Dirty Nails

E36Ross wrote: »

No.

750kg max unless you've a BE

Don't think it can even pull the 750kg because the max GVW of 3500kg has already been reached.

Likewise even though his 3500kg van & 2000kg trailer unloaded will only gross at about 2300kg,he still cant drive it with a B class.

This is where it gets stupid. If he had a 1500kg car & his 2000kg braked trailer,he'd probably be ok.

Dirty Nails

punisher5112 wrote: »

Not necessarily if the van is at 3,500kg then no towing would be permitted under a standard B licence.

Say the van is 2,000kg then that leaves 1,500kg of towable weight.

They will check this if believe to be over and will weigh, they even have scales that are portable.

You were there before me
Sorry,didn't see this before I posted.

Green farmer

Bass Reeves wrote: »

IW also do 4' high trailers. However you seldom see them in Ireland. If you knew you only ever be using the trailer for sheep you would be ok. They are 600kgs for an 8X5. They also do two wheel versions. The other advantage is the reduced drag on such trailer's. This would be ideal with a car

Biggest issue I see is it is getting harder and harder to get a car with decent towing ability. You are heading in the direction of a small jeep to get towing ability. From now on as all new cars will be Hybrid and electric you can forget about towing ability

I was very tempted to get one of those last time around. In the end opted for the regular height 8x5 with the front flap. It sort of reduces down the wind drag to near the height of the 4ft trailer. Also use the trailer for things like storing meal etc and couldnt do that with the low roof one. Have to agree with you on the lack of cars with decent towing capacities. I've an old car, but it restricts my choice of changing when looking for something newer when most cars have low towing capacity. Even with the o.p most skoda Octavias have the 1.6 engine but ideally youd like the 2.0 one to give you the extra torque. But that adds a few grand just for the stronger engine.

2018na

punisher5112 wrote: »

No unless all come in at 3500kg in total between the two.

Just get the BE

No

punisher5112

2018na wrote: »

No

No.....

Read on further we got more details....
I understand it's 750kg on top of 3,500 if it's a suitable vehicle. 4,250kg total.

2018na

punisher5112 wrote: »

No.....

Read on further we got more details....
I understand it's 750kg on top of 3,500 if it's a suitable vehicle. 4,250kg total.

Didn’t ask your opinion on what driving license I have

punisher5112

2018na wrote: »

Didn’t ask your opinion on what driving license I have

B

DBK1

2018na wrote: »

No

He’s right though, just get the BE.

It’s not that hard to do and to be honest anyone not competent enough to pass it really shouldn’t be towing a trailer.

cute geoge

Dirty Nails wrote: »

Don't think it can even pull the 750kg because the max GVW of 3500kg has already been reached.

Likewise even though his 3500kg van & 2000kg trailer unloaded will only gross at about 2300kg,he still cant drive it with a B class.

This is where it gets stupid. If he had a 1500kg car & his 2000kg braked trailer,he'd probably be ok.

What weight is the typical 8 x5 cow box .Would I be right saying approx. 800kg
So I would be legal on B licence with an octavia and 2 400kg animals .

AckwelFoley

cute geoge wrote: »

What weight is the typical 8 x5 cow box .Would I be right saying approx. 800kg
So I would be legal on B licence with an octavia and 2 400kg animals .

The Ifor williams 8 x 5 livestock TA5G is rated at 2700kg

Even a bog standard factory built 8 x 4 general duty trailer will come in at 1400kg minimum as a previous poster mentioned if you don't have a BE you won't be pulling horse or livestock trailers.

505 horsebox is also 2.7 tonne

E36Ross

Theres a lot of Polish trailers about lately, Here's a 10x5 thats 750kg Gross.

https://www.donedeal.ie/trailers-for-sale/trailer-10x5-with-mesh-sides/26300016

Pretty much worthless as you can't really carry anything on them but plenty of lads are buying them!

Bass Reeves

cute geoge wrote: »

What weight is the typical 8 x5 cow box .Would I be right saying approx. 800kg
So I would be legal on B licence with an octavia and 2 400kg animals .

I think an IW 8X5 is about 700kgs unladen weight.

DBK1

cute geoge wrote: »

What weight is the typical 8 x5 cow box .Would I be right saying approx. 800kg
So I would be legal on B licence with an octavia and 2 400kg animals .

You’re looking at the wrong figures. The weight of the empty box is irrelevant as such.

It’s the max permissible fully loaded weight that you need to look at. As AckwelFoley says for most 8x5 boxes this will be somewhere around the 2,700kgs mark. That means it will be well above what any car is rated to tow so legally you are not even allowed to tow that trailer empty behind your car without a BE license.

AckwelFoley

E36Ross wrote: »

Theres a lot of Polish trailers about lately, Here's a 10x5 thats 750kg Gross.

https://www.donedeal.ie/trailers-for-sale/trailer-10x5-with-mesh-sides/26300016

Pretty much worthless as you can't really carry anything on them but plenty of lads are buying them!

Handy little run around but one could easily get caught out over loading it. Max payload probably 400kg at best

Bass Reeves

AckwelFoley wrote: »

The Ifor williams 8 x 5 livestock TA5G is rated at 2700kg

Even a bog standard factory built 8 x 4 general duty trailer will come in at 1400kg minimum as a previous poster mentioned if you don't have a BE you won't be pulling horse or livestock trailers.

505 horsebox is also 2.7 tonne

You never get a TA5...8X5 trailer up to 2.7T laden weight with stock. They are about 700kgs unladen, I got 6X280kg yearling in once with a real squeeze that 2.4T. Generally 4X350 kg cattle will fill it so you would be near the 2T limit of some small jeeps

DBK1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You never get a TA5...8X5 trailer up to 2.7T laden weight with stock. They are about 700kgs unladen, I got 6X280kg yearling in once with a real squeeze that 2.4T. Generally 4X350 kg cattle will fill it so you would be near the 2T limit of some small jeeps

That may be true but you’re not allowed do any of that with an 8x5 unless you have your BE license!

AckwelFoley

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You never get a TA5...8X5 trailer up to 2.7T laden weight with stock. They are about 700kgs unladen, I got 6X280kg yearling in once with a real squeeze that 2.4T. Generally 4X350 kg cattle will fill it so you would be near the 2T limit of some small jeeps

If its empty and weights 750kg but plated for 2700kg you can't pull it on a B licence

Law refers maximum permissable weights

cute geoge

What if the trailer is not plated????

AckwelFoley

cute geoge wrote: »

What if the trailer is not plated????

It's not legal if manufactured after October 2012 not to have a type approval certificate and plated.

Prior to that date it will still need to be road worthy and this is easily determined. There are maximum weight capacities stamped to axles and overrun couplings

If I were a Garda and I see you with a pre 2012 loaded with sand on a b license..I'm going to weigh your train

DBK1

cute geoge wrote: »

What if the trailer is not plated????

Any trailer manufactured after 2012 is legally to be plated. Anything older than that and unplated you are supposed to make an appointment with a trailer manufacturer to take the trailer to them for it to be plated.

Green farmer

Thing with trailers is, if they look right ,chances are it's right. If it looks wrong, chances are it's wrong.

fits

Behind paywall but article in farming info today about license issue. It’s really best to just do the test if towing regularly.

https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/legal-advice/a-minor-accident-with-the-farm-jeep-and-trailer-looks-set-to-escalate-into-a-very-expensive-claim-what-are-our-options-40082705.html?fbclid=IwAR2TVhRRk8jU9Fp7M802_VDfTef948sUV8t-xKRgbnumhW7EpzM8sT1L0bg

_Brian

cute geoge wrote: »

What if the trailer is not plated????

What I’ve been told is they will make an “appropriate approximation” amd compare it to a known reputable brand that plated .

So if you have an unplated builders style trailer it will be compared to the equivalent for Williams or similar.

Green farmer

DJ98 wrote: »

Looking at buying a new trailer to transport sheep behind car (skoda octavia 1.6).

Was looking at a few skoda octavias myself recently as I really like the look of them. Spotted a really clean 1.6d, but noticed it was only 90bhp whereas others have the 110bhp. I assume the 2.0d would be the one to go for, but is a good bit more expensive. Anyone here actually use a octavia for towing and how do ye rate its ability ?

paddysdream

Not directly related to the OP but anyways.
Had a "very well known" traffic corp garda at a meeting a few years ago talking about towing trailers especially in relation to farming.

Few things I remember from it were;
Lighting boards hanging on the back are a sure fire way to have the Garda take a closer look as it has all the signs of a "rooter".Even if they are working perfectly its an indication of less than perfect maintaince .

Breakaway cable is the first thing they will look on an Ifor Williams etc and it better be there, connected and not broken.Next is bellows covering moving part of the trailer hitch.This missing is another bad sign.Have it present and greased.
Hitch itself should be in good working order and not obviously worn.
Tyres not bald or bulging.

Overloading and overweight.Unless taking the proverbial this is not normally an issue.In other words don't pile the sand up over the sideboards,don't have the arse of the towing vehicle dragging the road,have the load secured.
With livestock he said it was understandable if weight could be slightly over whatever limit applied but say for instance if moving cattle its hard to have the exact weight of the stock even if collecting from a mart etc.Again his opinion was that if the load looked ok it should not be an issue.

Same with bale,grain trailers.Load secured with straps in case of bales and again if the trailer looks well maintained and in good order they are unlikely to really go to town on you.

On lights he recommended having reflective strips on tailboard of the trailer as it was a major help if lights stopped working.Again he said in a genuine case of say coming home from mart with stock and lights went he might not pull someone if everything else looked ok and he believed them that they were working when they set off.

General appearance of the trailer and towing vehicle was probably the reason if you were waved through or they decide to take a closer look.Also he did stress the importance of having the correct licence and insurance cover for what you were towing.

All the above "leeway"would go out the window in event of an accident though.

Green farmer

DJ98 wrote: »

Looking at buying a new trailer to transport sheep behind car (skoda octavia 1.6). Would I be right in saying that the towing capacity of a car like this would be something like 1450 1500 kgs,.

Did you or anyone do any towing with the 1.6 diesal skoda Octavia? My car is giving bother and thinking of buying one ?

Ashill5

Is a trailer license required for towing an 8*5 double axel trailer