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Air to water heat system so expensive?

  • 31-01-2021 12:16pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ pj12332


    Hi guys,

    We have Mitsibitchi ecodan air to water heat pump. It provides all of our heating and hot water. No other energy bills. It's above ground at the back of the house if our new build.

    House is a 125sqm 4 bed with A rated BER. During the summer/Autumn our bills were very good ranging from 140 to 200 for two months. Heating temperature in both zones was left at the lowest setting of 10 as the house was very warm when there is any sun.

    Lastest bill from November 2020 to January 2021 came in at 300 euro for two months. The way it is set up we set our home to keep 20 degrees both upstairs and down. If it drops below 20 the pump kicks in and brings it up to the 20. I have read that there are different ways of setting the system up (something about a compensation curve setting). Not sure if anyone knows or uses this setting? Also not sure if 20 is too high for upstairs. It probably is! The rooms seem to hover around 18.5-20 so I'd imagine we would stop the system kicking in constantly if I dropped that temperature to say 18.5

    We are new to this system, only lived in small 2 bed apartment for years. Would 300 for two months be considered good or bad for the cold snap? Excuse my ignorance, this is new to us.

    We used a lot more kilowatts than I thought we would as we make a big effort to reduce our energy costs, always have. Just curious to find out other people's experiences with the air to water heat systems and typical running costs for people would be very helpful. Thanks


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ pj12332


    We have two zones, under ground heating downstairs and rads upstairs. Have started to monitor it now after we got a 300 euro bill for two months.

    We turned our themostats down to 18 degrees in both zones as when at 20 the unit is constantly topping up the heat. Wanted to see if 18 was comfortable to live with as temperature in the house rarely drops below 18.5

    The first night I started monitoring the night usage the system only used 4kwh. The second night I wake up and 10kwh has been used. Nothing changed on our end. So unless the water heating came on during the night or something I'm confused as to how it went from 4 to 10. Will monitor for a week to see.

    In 36 hours we have now used 24kwh. Before last night we had only used 14kwh in 24 hours.

    Would drive you mad this would.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,654 ✭✭✭✭ listermint


    So your saying you had a heating bill of circa 500 euro for the year...



    If that is yes. It's very good . Don't you think ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭ AMKC


    I am so glad I have an oil heating system. The way I look at an air to water heating system is it's like a more complicated and more expensive storage heating system. The only good thing about storage heaters is they would store the heat in there blocks and let it out slowly during the day when they were not on. With these air to water systems the only thing storing the heat is your house. So your house needs to be well insulated and airtight. As soon as you open a window or a door any hot air escapes outside and cold air comes in so then your temperature in your house drops and your system comes on to try and bring it up to temperature again. At least with an oils boiler you can decide yourself when to turn it on, for how long and turn it off when I want. Then when Summer comes I just turn it off altogether and do not use it at all untill winter comes again. That is something you can not do with the air to water systems which is crazy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ pj12332


    listermint wrote: »
    So your saying you had a heating bill of circa 500 euro for the year...



    If that is yes. It's very good . Don't you think ?

    No I had a bill of 300 from 26th November 2020 to 26th January 2021. So two months


  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ pj12332


    500 for the year :D if I lived in my shed maybe


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  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ pj12332


    AMKC wrote: »
    I am so glad I have an oil heating system. The way I look at an air to water heating system is it's like a more complicated and more expensive storage heating system. The only good thing about storage heaters is they would store the heat in there blocks and let it out slowly during the day when they were not on. With these air to water systems the only thing storing the heat is your house. So your house needs to be well insulated and airtight. As soon as you open a window or a door any hot air escapes outside and cold air comes in so then your temperature in your house drops and your system comes on to try and bring it up to temperature again. At least with an oils boiler you can decide yourself when to turn it on, for how long and turn it off when I want. Then when Summer comes I just turn it off altogether and do not use it at all untill winter comes again. That is something you can not do with the air to water systems which is crazy.

    Oh to have gas would be nice :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,209 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    AMKC wrote: »
    .... Then when Summer comes I just turn it off altogether and do not use it at all untill winter comes again. That is something you can not do with the air to water systems which is crazy.

    Not sure where you got that idea. The heat pump turns itself off once it’s not needed. It will still heat hot water of course but that’s 30mins once a night.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,787 ✭✭✭✭ mickdw


    But a normal electricity bill might be say 120 for 2 months in home without air to water.
    So you have negligible additional heating costs for the summer months and maybe 5 months at most expensive. You say 300 for 2 months is the bill. Minus 120 for normal elect usage so 90 per month heating cost for the worst months. Say 5 months at 90 is 450 heating cost. Say another 3 months are about half costs for warmer months - say 3 x 45 is 135 and summer would have very limited costs so arguably less than 600 heating cost for the year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,502 ✭✭✭✭ Ghost Train


    https://www.seai.ie/publications/Your-Guide-to-Building-Energy-Rating.pdf

    Table at the end of the above document
    Eg
    450€ a year for a A3 rated 100m2 house
    900€ for 200m2 house

    Although based on 2014 energy prices


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,209 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    AMKC wrote: »
    I am so glad I have an oil heating system. The way I look at an air to water heating system is it's like a more complicated and more expensive storage heating system. The only good thing about storage heaters is they would store the heat in there blocks and let it out slowly during the day when they were not on. With these air to water systems the only thing storing the heat is your house. So your house needs to be well insulated and airtight. As soon as you open a window or a door any hot air escapes outside and cold air comes in so then your temperature in your house drops and your system comes on to try and bring it up to temperature again.

    The storage system in a heat pump is your concrete floor which is very like what you said with storage heater... a big block of concrete. It is a similar concept just that the heat pump is a lot more efficient at heating the concrete.

    The heat pump shouldn’t come on just because you opened a door and a lot of houses with heat pumps have heat recovery ventilation so you don’t ever open windows.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭ Wolftown


    €300 does seem quite steep. I'm in an A2 rated 4 bed with heat pump as the only energy source. My most recent bill was €240 for 2 months (early November to early January), and I would consider us to be heavy enough usage - 2 adults and 2 young kids.

    Summer bills would be €140 - €180. Temperature 20° downstairs and 19° upstairs.

    We've lived with both oil and gas before and prefer the air to water so far. Constantly warm house, constant hot water (massive hot water tank), and cheaper to run.

    I'm not sure how the Mitsubishi systems are controlled, but our Panasonic can divert energy to hot water only/heating only/combination or just turned off altogether. We've never had any reason to mess with it in the 18 months we've lived here, which I'd see as another positive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,421 ✭✭✭ theteal


    So generally a 2 month bill is €150 but Nov/Dec was €300?

    So we'll say 150 * 5 = €750
    Add the €300 bill to bring it up to €1050

    That seems super expensive to me for one of these uber efficient heating systems.

    Is that fairly normal for Ireland? Consumers getting screwed by smaller market/less competition?

    Im UK based but even accounting for exchange rate our stone age gravity fed gas system with boiler as old as me and cant do water and heating separately doesn't seem so bad. Our annual combined bill is about that figure - 1970s 4 bed semi.


  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ pj12332


    mickdw wrote: »
    But a normal electricity bill might be say 120 for 2 months in home without air to water.
    So you have negligible additional heating costs for the summer months and maybe 5 months at most expensive. You say 300 for 2 months is the bill. Minus 120 for normal elect usage so 90 per month heating cost for the worst months. Say 5 months at 90 is 450 heating cost. Say another 3 months are about half costs for warmer months - say 3 x 45 is 135 and summer would have very limited costs so arguably less than 600 heating cost for the year.

    Ye good point. We are just worried there might be something wrong with out system. Gonna book it in a for s service as we are here a year and it was built 18 months prior. So it's overdue at this stage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,209 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    theteal wrote: »
    So generally a 2 month bill is €150 but Nov/Dec was €300?

    So we'll say 150 * 5 = €750
    Add the €300 bill to bring it up to €1050

    That seems super expensive to me for one .

    Your maths is off.
    Even if it did cost €150 for those 2 months it’s not going to cost that for all the other bills during the year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ pj12332


    Wolftown wrote: »
    €300 does seem quite steep. I'm in an A2 rated 4 bed with heat pump as the only energy source. My most recent bill was €240 for 2 months (early November to early January), and I would consider us to be heavy enough usage - 2 adults and 2 young kids.

    Summer bills would be €140 - €180. Temperature 20° downstairs and 19° upstairs.

    We've lived with both oil and gas before and prefer the air to water so far. Constantly warm house, constant hot water (massive hot water tank), and cheaper to run.

    I'm not sure how the Mitsubishi systems are controlled, but our Panasonic can divert energy to hot water only/heating only/combination or just turned off altogether. We've never had any reason to mess with it in the 18 months we've lived here, which I'd see as another positive.

    Very helpful thanks. We are two adults one kid. Have you a night meter or just use a standard? The other thing to consider is the provider as costs per unit do vary a lot. We are at end of contract now with airtricity. Going to move to energia and get the 41% discount off standard rate. Works out better than any welcome bonus considering these units use so many Kilowatts.


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,251 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    Loads of chrismas lights on for longer this year???


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,917 ✭✭✭ bilbot79


    Have you shopped around vis a vis electricity prices?


  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ pj12332


    Ye u swap once a year. Going with energia this year for the 12 months discount. Will help with the big winter bills as opposed to free credit up front with electric Ireland. Contact up now in two weeks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ pj12332


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Loads of chrismas lights on for longer this year???

    Unfortunately not ha


  • Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭ hero25


    There are a number of similar threads on this topic. Have a look at this thread... its not too long and may help!
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058146951

    Below is an extract of one of my posts in there:
    Ive an A2 house, 320sqm... in it ~4 years......... Bottom line is, for all Electricity usage in the house - I've been using ~13,200 units per annum for each of the last 3 years.
    Gives me an annual Electricity bill of ~ 2300euro


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  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭ Wolftown


    pj12332 wrote: »
    Very helpful thanks. We are two adults one kid. Have you a night meter or just use a standard? The other thing to consider is the provider as costs per unit do vary a lot. We are at end of contract now with airtricity. Going to move to energia and get the 41% discount off standard rate. Works out better than any welcome bonus considering these units use so many Kilowatts.

    We're on a normal day/night plan with Panda, who were cheapest when I signed up. Paying around 15.4c per daytime unit and 7.5c per night unit. Standing charge is 51c/day.

    Come to think of it I should really check prices soon, been with Panda 18 months now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ pj12332


    hero25 wrote: »
    There are a number of similar threads on this topic. Have a look at this thread... its not too long and may help!
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058146951

    Below is an extract of one of my posts in there:
    Ive an A2 house, 320sqm... in it ~4 years......... Bottom line is, for all Electricity usage in the house - I've been using ~13,200 units per annum for each of the last 3 years.
    Gives me an annual Electricity bill of ~ 2300euro

    Wow that's high but very large house too. I'll have a look thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,787 ✭✭✭✭ mickdw


    pj12332 wrote: »
    Unfortunately not ha

    There is nothing wrong with your costs.
    Ive seen houses with 700 per 2 monthly bill - clear issues there but if you properly consider your normal power useage costs, the heating plrtion of your bill is likely very good value.
    You joked that 500 annual heating bill would be maybe for shed when in reality you entire home heating boll is not alot more.
    I think you are looking at bill and assuming its all heating costs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,421 ✭✭✭ theteal


    KCross wrote: »
    Your maths is off.
    Even if it did cost €150 for those 2 months it’s not going to cost that for all the other bills during the year.

    OP said Summer/Autumn was 140-200 range so I thought 150 was a fair estimate for a bi-monthly average


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,313 ✭✭✭ red_bairn


    When my parents were in New Zealand last Feb-April to see their grandson, brother and all I was back at their house with my wife and child and we spent 137 per month during those colder months (1970s semi-detached house, think it is energy rating is a D, might be higher now with spray insulation in the attic).

    We moved out to our own home just after Christmas and we are due our bill from Energia in a fortnight. Currently we are at 200 € for 6 weeks use (113sqm; 3 bed terraced). We tend to be heavy users with laptop, personal pc on all the time and running showers a lot when we wash down the little one. So I reckon the bill may be around 255 when it comes in (it was estimated to be 145 2 weeks ago).


  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ pj12332


    mickdw wrote: »
    There is nothing wrong with your costs.
    Ive seen houses with 700 per 2 monthly bill - clear issues there but if you properly consider your normal power useage costs, the heating plrtion of your bill is likely very good value.
    You joked that 500 annual heating bill would be maybe for shed when in reality you entire home heating boll is not alot more.
    I think you are looking at bill and assuming its all heating costs.

    Sound Mick. Ye again that's a good point. The misses has told me to find answers :D I'm just trying my best haha. Would you have any explanation as to why my night usage was 4kwh two nights ago yet it was 10 last night? I only started recording it two days ago so will do it for 7 to see if I find a pattern. It's strange because nothing changed in those two days. Thinking maybe the hot water might have been done last night. I'm due to get a service and hopefully will get a lot of it explained. I've no idea how to set water heating to come on at night for example if wanted to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,313 ✭✭✭ red_bairn


    pj12332 wrote: »
    Sound Mick. Ye again that's a good point. The misses has told me to find answers :D I'm just trying my best haha. Would you have any explanation as to why my night usage was 4kwh two nights ago yet it was 10 last night? I only started recording it two days ago so will do it for 7 to see if I find a pattern. It's strange because nothing changed in those two days. Thinking maybe the hot water might have been done last night. I'm due to get a service and hopefully will get a lot of it explained. I've no idea how to set water heating to come on at night for example if wanted to.

    Did you have something like the washing machine going? Perhaps some electronics not switched off? A console or something similar in idle but still consuming energy?


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,654 ✭✭✭✭ listermint


    mickdw wrote: »
    There is nothing wrong with your costs.
    Ive seen houses with 700 per 2 monthly bill - clear issues there but if you properly consider your normal power useage costs, the heating plrtion of your bill is likely very good value.
    You joked that 500 annual heating bill would be maybe for shed when in reality you entire home heating boll is not alot more.
    I think you are looking at bill and assuming its all heating costs.

    This exactly.

    It feels there's an expectation of the heating being as close to free and then just electricity being the average home...


    Your costs are very good OP. Average heating bills in Ireland oil or gas can be 1200 - 1800 per year. And then electricity on top of that cost.


  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ pj12332


    listermint wrote: »
    This exactly.

    It feels there's an expectation of the heating being as close to free and then just electricity being the average home...


    Your costs are very good OP. Average heating bills in Ireland oil or gas can be 1200 - 1800 per year. And then electricity on top of that cost.

    Thanks for the input lads.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,666 ✭✭✭ The Continental Op


    listermint wrote: »
    This exactly.

    It feels there's an expectation of the heating being as close to free and then just electricity being the average home...


    Your costs are very good OP. Average heating bills in Ireland oil or gas can be 1200 - 1800 per year. And then electricity on top of that cost.

    I think the most telling part of any of the information the OP has provided so far is this
    pj12332 wrote: »
    Sound Mick. Ye again that's a good point. The misses has told me to find answers :D I'm just trying my best haha. Would you have any explanation as to why my night usage was 4kwh two nights ago yet it was 10 last night? I only started recording it two days ago so will do it for 7 to see if I find a pattern. It's strange because nothing changed in those two days. Thinking maybe the hot water might have been done last night. I'm due to get a service and hopefully will get a lot of it explained. I've no idea how to set water heating to come on at night for example if wanted to.

    Wake me up when it's all over.



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