Griffiths Evaluations and Times Gone By

Green farmer

Talking of the old times, I've become interested in the history of my farm here. Did some research on griffiths 1850 valuations and census from1901 and 1911. Interesting stuff. The 1850 valuations threw up maps. Could see how the fields were laid out then and where a house or two were built, but no trace exists today. Very interesting getting an insight into life 100 or 150 years ago, imagining the work they did back farming the land, compared to today.

Lime Tree Farm

Green farmer wrote: »

Talking of the old times, I've become interested in the history of my farm here. Did some research on griffiths 1850 valuations and census from1901 and 1911. Interesting stuff. The 1850 valuations threw up maps. Could see how the fields were laid out then and where a house or two were built, but no trace exists today. Very interesting getting an insight into life 100 or 150 years ago, imagining the work they did back farming the land, compared to today.

Have a look further back with this one.

www.map.geohive.ie
expand on the option "base information and mapping"
see last option on the list for "Historic 6" colour (1837)"

you should also have a look at the Tithe Applotments, from the same timeline.

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/index.jsp

Dinzee Conlee

Lime Tree Farm wrote: »

Have a look further back with this one.

www.map.geohive.ie
expand on the option "base information and mapping"
see last option on the list for "Historic 6" colour (1837)"

you should also have a look at the Tithe Applotments, from the same timeline.

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/index.jsp

Oh, thats interesting...

In the Griffiths valuations - we ahve EXACTLY the same land as we do at home now.

But, in the tithe applotments, it seems to be less...

What are the columns representing in the tithe applotments do you know Lime? I know the ARP are Acre, Roods, Percehes, but not sure what the financial ones are?

patsy_mccabe

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Oh, thats interesting...

In the Griffiths valuations - we ahve EXACTLY the same land as we do at home now.

But, in the tithe applotments, it seems to be less...

What are the columns representing in the tithe applotments do you know Lime? I know the ARP are Acre, Roods, Percehes, but not sure what the financial ones are?

Rent. Even large farmers then rented off British landlords. Some subletted to smaller holdings then.

Dinzee Conlee

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Rent. Even large farmers then rented off British landlords. Some subletted to smaller holdings then.

I was being lazy Patsy, I should have asked the google what tithe meant...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_for_Tithes_(Ireland)_Act_1823#:~:text=The%20Composition%20for%20Tithes%20Act,a%20percentage%20of%20agricultural%20yield.

Very interesting... if I am reading it right, in 1826 I think, my great, great, great, grandfather paid 1 pound tithe to the Anglican church... :eek:

Lime Tree Farm

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Oh, thats interesting...

In the Griffiths valuations - we ahve EXACTLY the same land as we do at home now.

But, in the tithe applotments, it seems to be less...

What are the columns representing in the tithe applotments do you know Lime? I know the ARP are Acre, Roods, Percehes, but not sure what the financial ones are?

In the 3rd Column they have classified the land into 1st,2nd and 3rd class land, which they total up in the 4th Column. So you would need to have another look at your acreage again.

The 6th Column is the Amount of Rent paid and 7th Column is the Value per acre.
The amounts that were levied per classification for your area were decided by Commissioners appointed following 1832 tithe composition act.

We recently found the old land commission payment sheet here,back into the 1890s


They used pay twice a year

_Brian

We’re recent blow ins here.

Wife’s home they have been there since mid 1700’s

kevthegaff

What actually happened with the land commission, guys that had clout got more?

Castlekeeper

_Brian wrote: »

We’re recent blow ins here.

Wife’s home they have been there since mid 1700’s

That's unusual, afaik, often it was policy to shift people on so as to disrupt communities.

Castlekeeper

kevthegaff wrote: »

What actually happened with the land commission, guys that had clout got more?

Sometimes better rather than more, civil war politics came into it.

Lime Tree Farm

Deleted User wrote: »

We recently found the old land commission payment sheet here,back into the 1890s


They used pay twice a year

I have the original document of my great-grandfathers 1898 reduction of Rent at the Fair Rent Tribunals 1881-1900. I think there is a database of these reductions held in the National Archives.

Exiled1

There have been persistent attempts by historians etc. to seek to unlock the Land Commission files from the creation of the first Land Commission in 1871.
There is no prospect of any LC files being revealed. That can of worms will never be opened.

blue5000

Exiled1 wrote: »

There have been persistent attempts by historians etc. to seek to unlock the Land Commission files from the creation of the first Land Commission in 1871.
There is no prospect of any LC files being revealed. That can of worms will never be opened.

I think the LC archives are in Portlaoise. Nobody can get in there, must be a few skeletons in the cupboard.

Say my name

blue5000 wrote: »

I think the LC archives are in Portlaoise. Nobody can get in there, must be a few skeletons in the cupboard.

Hardly worth that crap. You'd think with all the revelations long passed about IRA and worse that a simple thing like the Land Commission reports could be made available to historians.
If there ever was a time to push for it it's now with a Green Party (could say urban) element that could take this request on.

Green farmer

Loads of history around us that we pass every day, but dont notice. Since I saw the old maps etc, I've seen features like old stone walls and breaks in the ditches where old entrances once stood that I never noticed before. This is a good time of the year to spot these things, with no leaves on trees and being able to see into ditches etc. Also fascinating seeing the old census where things like your great grandparents were children in the family of the time and how the same names keep appearing down through family generations later. Even though that process will probably disappear now.

endainoz

Geohive is a great resource to see the old maps and how they evolved over time. At the time of the first ordinance survey map in 1837, Ireland was actually the most accurately mapped country in the world. The British engineers and the "sappers" did an amazing job in fairness.

But make no mistake, this wasn't done for the beauty of the country to be recorded. It was all done to put a quality on land value for the landlords. All came from the Griffith evaluation and followed from there.

There's some really great resources out there, such as parish records and it's possible to see the amount landlords owned of each barony.

On geo hive it's possible to load up the first two ordnance survey maps at once and use the sliders to see the difference between a pre famine map and the newer version made a few years later. It's truly harrowing to see the amount of houses that just disappear in a short time.

jfh

Never heard of geohive until I saw this thread, so what date is the first maps, 1835?

blue5000

Say my name wrote: »

Hardly worth that crap. You'd think with all the revelations long passed about IRA and worse that a simple thing like the Land Commission reports could be made available to historians.
If there ever was a time to push for it it's now with a Green Party (could say urban) element that could take this request on.

I don't know the reason that nobody is allowed in. Maybe the whole thing is just boxes of chaos that were just thrown in there in a big hurry, or perhaps there really is something to hide.

Who knows what went on 100 odd years ago when the big estates were being divided up or what sort of deals were done.

It should be saved digitally anyway at least if not made public.

edit, I found the Griffith's valuation for our house. What does the column 'number of measures' mean?

endainoz

jfh wrote: »

Never heard of geohive until I saw this thread, so what date is the first maps, 1835?

1837 I believe.

josephsoap

Exiled1 wrote: »

There have been persistent attempts by historians etc. to seek to unlock the Land Commission files from the creation of the first Land Commission in 1871.
There is no prospect of any LC files being revealed. That can of worms will never be opened.

Was it something like the higher your ranking in the British army your were awarded bigger estates in the better counties ...is that how Meath also became known as the royal county...

Base price

josephsoap wrote: »

Was it something like the higher your ranking in the British army your were awarded bigger estates in the better counties ...is that how Meath also became known as the royal county...

Meath was the seat for the High King of Ireland. The hill of Tara was the place where their inauguration took place. As far as I remember there was 5 provinces in Ireland - Meath and the other 4.

Donald Trump

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Oh, thats interesting...

In the Griffiths valuations - we ahve EXACTLY the same land as we do at home now.

But, in the tithe applotments, it seems to be less...

What are the columns representing in the tithe applotments do you know Lime? I know the ARP are Acre, Roods, Percehes, but not sure what the financial ones are?

Irish acres maybe?
Are you off by a factor of about 1.6?




Or maybe they underdeclared so as not to have to hand over money to the Protestants

Cattlepen

blue5000 wrote: »

I don't know the reason that nobody is allowed in. Maybe the whole thing is just boxes of chaos that were just thrown in there in a big hurry, or perhaps there really is something to hide.

Who knows what went on 100 odd years ago when the big estates were being divided up or what sort of deals were done.

It should be saved digitally anyway at least if not made public.

edit, I found the Griffith's valuation for our house. What does the column 'number of measures' mean?

The land commission was active up until the 70’s or 80’s so there could be stuff hidden more recently than 100 years ago.

Exiled1

Cattlepen wrote: »

The land commission was active up until the 70’s or 80’s so there could be stuff hidden more recently than 100 years ago.

This exactly. Issues around land are so contentious, most of them going back generations.
A laneway near where I was born, two families, small farms. There was a right of way on the lane to the second home. Neither family has spoken since the 1880s over a land purchase/division. The houses are about 150 m apart. This mad situation is by no means unusual in rural Ireland.
The big problem with the Land Commission data was 'who got first dibs on the best bits?" Can you imagine the grief if that appeared as irrefutable evidence from the archives!
I have a huge interest in genealogy and local history. It saddens me that so much is hidden irrespective of the storm it would cause.

jay0109

There's an old farmer who drinks in my local in the West. A wise auld lad who likes the booze a bit too much especially as he gets older. He worked on the tunnels in London in the 60's and 70's and made a lot of money. Bought land back home and let his father run it for him while he was abroad. Claims the Land Commission took it off him while still away and split it between some local FF party hacks. Very bitter about it still and brings it up regularly.

Lime Tree Farm

jay0109 wrote: »

There's an old farmer who drinks in my local in the West. A wise auld lad who likes the booze a bit too much especially as he gets older. He worked on the tunnels in London in the 60's and 70's and made a lot of money. Bought land back home and let his father run it for him while he was abroad. Claims the Land Commission took it off him while still away and split it between some local FF party hacks. Very bitter about it still and brings it up regularly.

Heard something similar from a chap from east Connaught, his parents were school teachers, they had their land seized also or were forced to sell.

Dinzee Conlee

blue5000 wrote: »

I don't know the reason that nobody is allowed in. Maybe the whole thing is just boxes of chaos that were just thrown in there in a big hurry, or perhaps there really is something to hide.

Who knows what went on 100 odd years ago when the big estates were being divided up or what sort of deals were done.

It should be saved digitally anyway at least if not made public.

edit, I found the Griffith's valuation for our house. What does the column 'number of measures' mean?

Is it griffith’s valuations lists the number of rooms in the house, type of roof, and the types of outhouses...
Seen it before, can’t remember where...

Dinzee Conlee

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Is it griffith’s valuations lists the number of rooms in the house, type of roof, and the types of outhouses...
Seen it before, can’t remember where...

One of the census form

Say my name

Exiled1 wrote: »

This exactly. Issues around land are so contentious, most of them going back generations.
A laneway near where I was born, two families, small farms. There was a right of way on the lane to the second home. Neither family has spoken since the 1880s over a land purchase/division. The houses are about 150 m apart. This mad situation is by no means unusual in rural Ireland.
The big problem with the Land Commission data was 'who got first dibs on the best bits?" Can you imagine the grief if that appeared as irrefutable evidence from the archives!
I have a huge interest in genealogy and local history. It saddens me that so much is hidden irrespective of the storm it would cause.

If the mother and baby home information can be made public I couldn't see why all this couldn't and shouldn't be too.
I know I'm agreeing with you.
But it really should.

Eastern Europe has been able to deal with Nazi atrocities and counter attacks on innocent German people after the war... and land commission records in Ireland would be only fluff to all that.

We as a nation can deal with land commission records!

jay0109

endainoz wrote: »

Geohive is a great resource to see the old maps and how they evolved over time. At the time of the first ordinance survey map in 1837, Ireland was actually the most accurately mapped country in the world. The British engineers and the "sappers" did an amazing job in fairness.

But make no mistake, this wasn't done for the beauty of the country to be recorded. It was all done to put a quality on land value for the landlords. All came from the Griffith evaluation and followed from there.

There's some really great resources out there, such as parish records and it's possible to see the amount landlords owned of each barony.

On geo hive it's possible to load up the first two ordnance survey maps at once and use the sliders to see the difference between a pre famine map and the newer version made a few years later. It's truly harrowing to see the amount of houses that just disappear in a short time.

Is there any Griffith Valuation type narrative to back up the 1837 pre-famine maps?
I'd really love to be able to compare the names/numbers for my townland in the Griffiths Valuation to the 1837 maps.

Or are the Griffiths Valuation maps on askaboutireland essentially the 1837 maps?

Say my name

Say my name wrote: »

If the mother and baby home information can be made public I couldn't see why all this couldn't and shouldn't be too.
I know I'm agreeing with you.
But it really should.

Eastern Europe has been able to deal with Nazi atrocities and counter attacks on innocent German people after the war... and land commission records in Ireland would be only fluff to all that.

We as a nation can deal with land commission records!

tbf you'd also be releasing info of families who struggled to pay or potentially got suspension of payments and these families still living in same area/on same farm






Theres alot to be considered tbf

Say my name

[Deleted User] wrote: »

tbf you'd also be releasing info of families who struggled to pay or potentially got suspension of payments and these families still living in same area/on same farm

It'll come out anyway.

Not diminishing on those families. But most people I'd say think to themselves the whole system was rigged from day one anyway.
It's only here in this country we've this obsession with land at all costs. The obsession leads to those records being kept hidden.
I doubt any other European country would behave in such a way in doing so.

have2flushtwice

I can't get geohive on my phone?? any ideas?
when I go to the site it's fine but when I look for a map it gives a blank page.

patsy_mccabe

Half of our farm was from 2 land commission divides. An elderly relative still refers to the fields his father got by the names of the families that lived there. Growing up I never heard any controversy about the LC.
in recent years though, starting to hear little snippets here and there. A lot of the time the LC stepped in and divided a farm if there were no living relatives to inherit.

paddysdream

Griffiths Valuation can be interesting reading.Have been told that the valuation depended on the suitability or otherwise for wheat growing.

Have a rent journal here somewhere that covers c.1885 to 1890.It belonged to a grand uncle who was land agent for our landlord.He had land in about 7 counties along with some in the UK.
Reading through it many were 6 months to a year in arrears at that stage in rent whilst a few were 4/5 years behind.Some were allowed money off for improvements like drainage or repair to buildings.
Also a few were borrowing money and repaying it along with the moities every 6 months.
Has one eviction in it.Something like
" I **** ******* took possession of ***** ********** land at X on such and such a date .RIC were in attendance "

Grand uncle took on the job on his fathers retirement and continued at it until 1920s as far as I know.Think a lot of estates were not tidied up until then.Our townland here along with the adjoining 4 were all part of the estate.

Does anyone remember the land annuity bills that came every 6 months?We got them until sometime in the late 80s/early 90s from memory.
They were a red strip of paper something like a bank lodgement slip and all you got as a final demand one .Think it was maybe 10 pounds or so at the time.Paid it a few times when I started farming here.Think they were all rolled over and ended when land commission was wound up.
Think it was the repayments on money borrowed to buy the land under one of the many Land Acts.

NamelessPhil

As a lurker on this forum, I'd like to say thanks for the links to the Applotment site above. It's kept my Dad occupied for the last week searching up the family tree!

maisiedaisy

On a similar vein which might be interesting to some people, it’s possible to apply to the Valuation Office for the records associated with your farm/townland. They do charge but AFAIK it’s €30. The records show when land changed hands, who it changed between, and what it was valued at that time. Can make for interesting reading!

Lime Tree Farm

NamelessPhil wrote: »

As a lurker on this forum, I'd like to say thanks for the links to the Applotment site above. It's kept my Dad occupied for the last week searching up the family tree!

He might also like to have a browse on the Index Calendar of old Wills 1858-1920,
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/search/cwa/home.jsp

and another one worth having a look at with free access to Birth Registration 1864-1921, Marriage Registration 1864-1945, Death certificates 1871-1970.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/irish-records-what-is-available/civil-records

hopeso

maisiedaisy wrote: »

On a similar vein which might be interesting to some people, it’s possible to apply to the Valuation Office for the records associated with your farm/townland. They do charge but AFAIK it’s €30. The records show when land changed hands, who it changed between, and what it was valued at that time. Can make for interesting reading!

What years would their records span?

kk.man

The land commission had it's flaws alright. Local family here father worked in it. They got big divides of ground. Whatever political party was in power had a say too.

I'm not defending landlords here but alot were badly done by the land commission simply because they had estates. I'm led to believe they didn't get properly compensated for. The council took over plots on bigger farms to build once off social houses too.

Yes I'd say opening those records would be a can of worms.

maisiedaisy

hopeso wrote: »

What years would their records span?

For the townland I applied for I got records from the 1860s up to the 1990s. I was using to find out a bit of family history!