Question re a will and estate

Samsgirl

Asking this for a friend of mine.

Her Dad passed away last year her Mam a few years previously.

As part of the estate, there was a car. Not a high value, approx 4k. After the funeral the car vanished. She thinks one of her siblings took it. She is now estranged from her siblings, partly to do with issues surrounding the will.

She noticed that the car tax renewal was due but hadn't arrived and contacted the Dept in Shannon to get a replacement form. They told her the car was no longer registered in her Dads name and told her it was changed after the date she provided as her Dads death.

Is this essentially theft as the car was included in the estate and she has already paid inheritance tax on it?

Any advice welcome.

Lenar3556

So this was her dads car?
Her dad left a will leaving the car to her, but it disappeared after his funeral.
Yet, when probate was granted presumably many months later, she still considered this car to be hers and was prepared to pay CAT on the value.
Not content with that she also wanted to pay it’s motor tax!

The timelines and her actions just don’t make sense!

In answer to your question, the executor of the will would be responsible for the car until such time as the estate is to be distributed. If the car vanished at at any point it should have been reported stolen by the executor.

The executor would be responsible for submitting the transfer of ownership documentation to Shannon and is the only person entitled to sign the documents to effect this transfer or ownership.

If, as is alleged here somebody else got hold of the registration documents and some way or other induced the dept of transport to update the registered owner to their name, this is likely to be in the realm of theft and fraud offences, as is the taking of the car in the first instance.

She should get legal advise on the matter.

brian_t

The OP does not say the that the car was left to anyone in particular.

Unless the car was left to a named person then surely the executor would sell the car and add the proceeds to the estate.

And in the case of an asset like a car which suffers from depreciation then the sooner it is sold the better.

Samsgirl

The car wasn't left to any named person. It was part of the estate. She paid inheritance tax in it as it was included in the the probate.
The issue is that the ownership has changed and she would like tobknownif this is theft or embezzlement? She wasn't notified of the change of ownership.

Claw Hammer

Samsgirl wrote: »

The car wasn't left to any named person. It was part of the estate. She paid inheritance tax in it as it was included in the the probate.
The issue is that the ownership has changed and she would like tobknownif this is theft or embezzlement? She wasn't notified of the change of ownership.

On the death of her father, the car became legally the property of the executor. The executor is obliged to account to the estate for the car. If somebody other than the executor took the car and registered it in their name, then it is theft. If the executor took the car, or sold it and did not account for it in the estate accounts, then it would be false accounting.

brian_t

Samsgirl wrote: »

The car wasn't left to any named person. It was part of the estate. She paid inheritance tax in it as it was included in the the probate.

You only pay inheritance tax on the part of the estate that you actually receive.

If the car was stolen or not accounted for then that reduces the total value of the estate and therefore your share of it.

But if you didn't receive it then you shouldn't have paid tax on it.

coylemj

brian_t wrote: »

You only pay inheritance tax on the part of the estate that you actually receive.

If the executor listed the car in the revenue return then it's very likely that the OP did pay tax (CAT) on it. The taxman doesn't verify that each and every asset actually ended up in the hands of the person who was supposed to receive it.

Lenar3556

coylemj wrote: »

If the executor listed the car in the revenue return then it's very likely that the OP did pay tax (CAT) on it. The taxman doesn't verify that each and every asset actually ended up in the hands of the person who was supposed to receive it.

Indeed, but it would be strange that anyone would do so in the case of a car that was stolen several months previously and hadn’t been recovered.

Lenar3556

Samsgirl wrote: »

The car wasn't left to any named person. It was part of the estate. She paid inheritance tax in it as it was included in the the probate.
The issue is that the ownership has changed and she would like tobknownif this is theft or embezzlement? She wasn't notified of the change of ownership.

Was she the executor?

Assuming she was, anyone else interfering with the registered title of the car is likely to be engaged in fraud, and in the taking of the car in the first instance, theft.

Pistachio19

Did the father simply leave everything between his children or did he split his estate up and specify that certain assets were to be left to certain people? If he left a will stating that everything was to be split between his children, then the car would have been sold and the money added to the estate 'pot'. Then the funds from the overall estate would have been divided between the children, as per the will, so your friend most likely has received their share of the value of the car.

coylemj

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Indeed, but it would be strange that anyone would do so in the case of a car that was stolen several months previously and hadn’t been recovered.

Agree, but the OP says that the car ‘was included in the estate’ and his friend has paid inheritance tax on it.

Samsgirl

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Was she the executor?

Assuming she was, anyone else interfering with the registered title of the car is likely to be engaged in fraud, and in the taking of the car in the first instance, theft.

No, an elderly relative is the executor and is really bothered about it all.

I haven't got answers to some of the questions on here as I don't have a lot of legal knowledge. I posted the scenario to see what she could do. I have no experience of wills or probate myself, I only know what she has told me.

The car was definitely not sold or if it was, my friend has no knowledge of it and no money from it. As someone pointed out, she paid tax on it as it was included as part of her inheritance when she was doing her return this year.

Dept of transport in Shannon have confirmed to her by email that the car isn't registered in her Dads name anymore.

Beyond this I really don't know anymore. I was just posting to see if there is anything she can do about it ie. go to the guards etc...

Pistachio19

Samsgirl wrote: »

No, an elderly relative is the executor and is really bothered about it all.

I haven't got answers to some of the questions on here as I don't have a lot of legal knowledge. I posted the scenario to see what she could do. I have no experience of wills or probate myself, I only know what she has told me.

The car was definitely not sold or if it was, my friend has no knowledge of it and no money from it. As someone pointed out, she paid tax on it as it was included as part of her inheritance when she was doing her return this year.

Dept of transport in Shannon have confirmed to her by email that the car isn't registered in her Dads name anymore.

Beyond this I really don't know anymore. I was just posting to see if there is anything she can do about it ie. go to the guards etc...

If it was included as part of the money she got for her inheritance then it was sold, and the funds included in the overall amount of money that was distributed from her father's estate. She did not need to be consulted by the executor in order for the executor to sell the car. What is her issue with the car being gone? It had to be sold in order for the funds to be divided. Perhaps if a sibling did get the car, their share of their inheritance was reduced by that amount.

Lenar3556

Samsgirl wrote: »

No, an elderly relative is the executor and is really bothered about it all.

I haven't got answers to some of the questions on here as I don't have a lot of legal knowledge. I posted the scenario to see what she could do. I have no experience of wills or probate myself, I only know what she has told me.

The car was definitely not sold or if it was, my friend has no knowledge of it and no money from it. As someone pointed out, she paid tax on it as it was included as part of her inheritance when she was doing her return this year.

Dept of transport in Shannon have confirmed to her by email that the car isn't registered in her Dads name anymore.

Beyond this I really don't know anymore. I was just posting to see if there is anything she can do about it ie. go to the guards etc...

Probably best that she seek the advice of a solicitor.

Samsgirl

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Probably best that she seek the advice of a solicitor.

Thank you. That's her plan now

brian_t

Samsgirl wrote: »

No, an elderly relative is the executor and is really bothered about it all.
I posted the scenario to see what she could do....

An heir thinking they could take advantage of the elderly relative would probably not be a surprise.